CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

[APAK]

@GodsGrace ...see previous posts #353, and #360....maybe you might want to reconsider you reply..

Bless you,

APAK

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace ...see previous posts #353, and #360....maybe you might want to reconsider you reply..

Bless you,

APAK

Will read. I don't read an entire thread. Sometimes I just pick up on things when going to it for my own alerts.

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace

GodsGrace, one more time and no more...below ( if I do not get blocked again) is my recent reply to BOL because evidently you have the same wax in the ears problem..please read it carefully because you are also saying things I never said...then get back with me, if you want. I am just getting a little frustrated that you can read with twisting my words...what gives?


Bless you,


APAK

Why insult one another?
Maybe YOU have the wax in the ears?

 

[Helen]

Well then, HR, one of us is wrong, totally wrong, and I know for sure it's not me because only reformed churches and hyper grace churches believe in OSAS. Eternal security is NOT accepted by mainline Christianity.

You are very sure of yourself.
BUT in fact many things are actually a 'wait and see' ...you maybe in for a big surprise and find out that you actually were the one in the wrong.

You can say that you are 'firmly persuaded' ....but only a foolish person would say " I know for sure".... or believe that they are 100% right!

 

[GodsGrace]

BOL I thought it was time again to go over your famous eight 'loss of salvation' verses. Of course my meanings of them are completely different from yours, not twisted to conform to the presented premise that salvation loss = faith loss = belief loss + obedience loss based on YOUR OWN BIASED INTERPRETATION of scripture.

I would agree with your relationship, and its not really yours, it is scriptural, if you used it correctly to honor God's word. You twist this equation for your own self carnal purpose and not for God's glory.

You consistently disregard context in scripture to force your desired outcome - loss of salvation. You fancy these 8 cherry-picked verses because there are frankly not many more vulnerable ones you can easily carve up or butcher, to distort and to satisfy yourself, regardless of the truth.

I'll just do the first two verses agina. You'll get the other six cherry-picked verses soon.

Matt 5:13 - BOL logic says that ‘salt’= being obedient and having belief in God = salvation. Therefore, the loss of its (salt) flavor means loss of salvation of a believer, according to BOL. Case closed.

(Mat 5:13) You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its savour, with what shall it be salted? It becomes good for nothing but to be thrown out and trodden under the feet of men. (NEV)

Matt 5:13 has zero to do with the salvation or the threat of its loss.

The ‘salt’ like the ‘light’ are true believers reaching out to the heathen non-believing world. If a believer is to be effective in converting folks, they cannot mix the truth with false ideas of the spirit of this world or from their own mind. If they do, they compromise teaching the gospel of truth; it becomes lies. The salt or the true gospel is compromised and is no good for saving anyone. The heathen will not believe it, will not treasure it and take it to their heart. They will discard it from their minds as cheap or tarsh news of no importance to their lives.

Now the believer that spoils the teaching of the gospel does not serve God correctly or effectively. Does God then say to this believer, I will deny you for this, you have lost your salvation because you are not obedient? Of course not. And does the believer teach a false gospel because he deliberately disobeys God or loses faith because he wants to give himself glory, maybe, probably not? Does the believer then lose his salvation, of course not? That would be a wild stretch, only conceived by a determined or insecure unbeliever or a professing believer.

So BOL, do you still think Matt 5:13 is all about the loss of salvation?

To the next BOL treasured verse – Matthew 7:21

(Mat 7:21) Not everyone that says to me: Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that pleases my Father who is in heaven. (NEV)

I would suggest to BOL to add the next two verses for context.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name do many mighty works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I tell them: I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work iniquity. (ALL NEV)

Now BOL’s logic from verse 21: Not pleasing Jesus’ Father = loss of salvation = loss of faith in God = loss of belief in and obedience to God.

Now in verse 23 it clearly says that those that work lawlessness or evil do not please God.

Now in verse 22 it clearly says that those that worked evil, cast out demons and did mighty works for Christ. Now these cannot be believers. They must be unbelievers who performed these supernatural acts by the power of evil forces, and for good works, that was common in the 1st century as it is today.

Now if BOL says these were believers that fell away, then why did Jesus say he NEVER knew them in verse 23. Never means he never once knew them, ever. If these people were once believers in Christ, Jesus would have said that he used to know them but not now. They must have chosen to 'drop out' by their own-free-will to lose their salvation, aye. Of course that last statement would be completely insane. It would only make sense for an unbeliever, and it does. Unbelievers use their free-will to say who's boss in the face of God. They are of course their own god as evil once took hold of Adam in the same way.

So BOL, do you still think Matt 7:21 is all about the loss of salvation of a believer?

Bless you,


APAK​

I read it right the first time Apak.
Maybe YOU force scripture to get YOUR desired outcome.
Jesus and Paul are both speaking about losing salvation...they wouldn't spend so much time talking about losing crowns or rewards. Our INHERITANCE is HEAVEN..not a reward.

Here's what you said:

The ‘salt’ like the ‘light’ are true believers reaching out to the heathen non-believing world. If a believer is to be effective in converting folks, they cannot mix the truth with false ideas of the spirit of this world or from their own mind. If they do, they compromise teaching the gospel of truth; it becomes lies. The salt or the true gospel is compromised and is no good for saving anyone. The heathen will not believe it, will not treasure it and take it to their heart. They will discard it from their minds as cheap or tarsh news of no importance to their lives.

So what did I misunderstand?? You're saying the salt is believers trying to convert the world and that they're not effective if they mix truth with false ideas.
IF they do THEY COMPROMISE TEACHING THE GOSPEL and it becomes lies.
THE SALT, OR THE TRUE GOSPEL is compromised........

YOU'RE saying the salt is the true gospel.
NO. The salt is US. WE are the salt.

Mathew 5:13 JESUS SAYS:
13“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men."

WE are the salt.
If WE become tasteless WE are no longer good for anything except to be THROWN OUT and TRAMPLED UNDER FOOT BY MEN.

I'll also tell you this....I happen to have taught the book of Mathew twice to adults. There's much more to this verse than one might think. It actually refers back to salt covenants made in the O.T. I won't get into it since it's a waste of breath....

But my exegesis is correct.
If you don't believe it is, please explain Mathew 5:13 by not embellishing and adding your own ideas.

Sometimes the wax can by in YOUR ear.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are very sure of yourself.
BUT in fact many things are actually a 'wait and see' ...you maybe in for a big surprise and find out that you actually were the one in the wrong.

You can say that you are 'firmly persuaded' ....but only a foolish person would say " I know for sure".... or believe that they are 100% right!

Some things we can be sure of.
Exegesis has to be done properly...it's a science.

 

[Nancy]

***
What you see in scriptures is not what I see therefore I am not going to get into the battle of scriptures.

Don't get your back up. I can read what you write and you are saying that the children of God can become lost IF they do not do as you want to impose. Are you so unlearned in scripture that you have not read where Paul said he had NO CONFIDENCE IN HIS FLESH? Also check out Romans 7, last verse.
Phil 3:3
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

The children of God place their faith, confidence in God's work, not their own works.

Good post, the way I look at "the scripture" in question now, is that "there remains no sacrifice left"so, in other words-try as you might but there is only one way to God and that is Jesus...there IS no where else to find salvation. Therefore, there remains no place else to go for it. And the communion thing IMHO- each time a mass is performed-they crucify Him again and again and again, over and over. IN REMEMBRANCE OF PERIOD.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Well then, HR, one of us is wrong, totally wrong, and I know for sure it's not me because only reformed churches and hyper grace churches believe in OSAS.

Don't be too sure about who only believes in OSAS.

Eternal security is NOT accepted by mainline Christianity. It's not accepted because it's not true. Only Mr. John Calvin believed this and spread this wrong soteriology around.

I will not defend John Calvin nor his words, but I will defend His words.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anti OSAS has been defeated. Any verses that a believer reads as countering that verse is misreading those verses, because there is no way to rationalize eternal security in His words of John 6:39. Once He has us as our Saviour, He cannot cease in being our Saviour, because that would not go to the glory of God in being our Saviour.

Any new Christians reading along will make up their own mind. All it takes is ONE reading of the New Testament with no preconceived ideas.

They should ask the Lord at that throne of grace for help in understanding His words too.

JESUS imposes. Children of God know what Jesus said, they know what He taught, they know what HE expects from them...

John 14:21 JESUS SAID
21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

What commandments do you suppose JESUS is talking about?

John 14:23 JESUS SAID
23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. 24“He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me."

JESUS said if anyone loves Him, he will keep His word.
What word? Did Jesus have nothing to say according to you?
IF one keeps His word, then Jesus abides with them.
IF they DO NOT keep His word, then He does NOT abide with them.

Very simple English.
Jesus is not hangin' with anybody that does not love Him.

Then let's talk about cause and effect. How does one receive Him? By coming to & believing in Him. How does that relate to the commandments in John 14:15 when it relates to John 14:16-17 as cause and effect?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If we keep His commandments, we will receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. Cause and effect. But what commandments is He really talking about here? It cannot be everything He has taught otherwise, salvation be long in coming with receiving that promise of the Holy Spirit. So what commandments is He talking about that will come with that promise of the Spirit?

For something important as that, He would be citing the commandments before verse 15; not afterwards.


John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.....10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

That is the commandments to believe Him repeated over and over again Jesus has been giving that leads up to verse 15 that will come with the promise of the Holy Ghost at our salvation. All throughout the Book of Acts, evidence backs up that by believing in Him is how one receives the one time remission of sins for salvation and the promise of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Cause and effect.

There are other commandments but they are for abiding in Him as His disciples; not for obtaining salvation by.

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The second commandment is for dwelling in Him as in abiding in Him. We can only love one another the way He wants us to by Him dwelling in us first as saved believers. Without Him, we have no power to love our enemies as we ought to.

There are other commandments for abiding in Him too, and they are not for obtaining salvation by either or else we would never have the promise of the Holy Ghost at our salvation, but we do by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ as promised.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good post, the way I look at "the scripture" in question now, is that "there remains no sacrifice left"so, in other words-try as you might but there is only one way to God and that is Jesus...there IS no where else to find salvation. Therefore, there remains no place else to go for it. And the communion thing IMHO- each time a mass is performed-they crucify Him again and again and again, over and over. IN REMEMBRANCE OF PERIOD.

JESUS IS NOT CRUCIFIED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
No wonder BreadofLife is so frustrated!

 

[Nancy]

JESUS IS NOT CRUCIFIED OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
No wonder BreadofLife is so frustrated!

Well my friend, seems his frustration is rubbing off on you. Just sayin! ♥

 

[GodsGrace]

Don't be too sure about who only believes in OSAS.



I will not defend John Calvin nor his words, but I will defend His words.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Anti OSAS has been defeated. Any verses that a believer reads as countering that verse is misreading those verses, because there is no way to rationalize eternal security in His words of John 6:39. Once He has us as our Saviour, He cannot cease in being our Saviour, because that would not go to the glory of God in being our Saviour.



They should ask the Lord at that throne of grace for help in understanding His words too.



Then let's talk about cause and effect. How does one receive Him? By coming to & believing in Him. How does that relate to the commandments in John 14:15 when it relates to John 14:16-17 as cause and effect?

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

If we keep His commandments, we will receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. Cause and effect. But what commandments is He really talking about here? It cannot be everything He has taught otherwise, salvation be long in coming with receiving that promise of the Holy Spirit. So what commandments is He talking about that will come with that promise of the Spirit?

For something important as that, He would be citing the commandments before verse 15; not afterwards.


John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.....10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

That is the commandments to believe Him repeated over and over again Jesus has been giving that leads up to verse 15 that will come with the promise of the Holy Ghost at our salvation. All throughout the Book of Acts, evidence backs up that by believing in Him is how one receives the one time remission of sins for salvation and the promise of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Cause and effect.

There are other commandments but they are for abiding in Him as His disciples; not for obtaining salvation by.

1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

The second commandment is for dwelling in Him as in abiding in Him. We can only love one another the way He wants us to by Him dwelling in us first as saved believers. Without Him, we have no power to love our enemies as we ought to.

There are other commandments for abiding in Him too, and they are not for obtaining salvation by either or else we would never have the promise of the Holy Ghost at our salvation, but we do by coming to & believing in Jesus Christ as promised.

I don't have time for this and am signing off.
You and I and also with others, have gone over about how Jesus will lose NOTHING.

First of all He said NOTHING not NO ONE.
Wonder what that could possibly mean? Maybe we should all find out?

OSAS has been defeated?
Says who?
It's been around from Jesus time up until Mr. Calvin.
Just think of all those idiots that couldn't SEE IT IN SCRIPTURE before Calvin.
!!!

In another thread you said this:

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

(The iniquity of the Nicene Creed)

So, if one stops honoring the Son, HE IS STILL SAVED?

Preposterous!

 

[Triumph1300]

What does it mean: Endure till the end.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well my friend, seems his frustration is rubbing off on you. Just sayin! ♥

Well Nancy, if you had red hair, and I kept telling you it was brunette, I think YOU would get pretty frustrated too.

I don't see BreadofLife telling Protestants what we believe...
How do we get off telling HIM what Catholics believe??

 

[GodsGrace]

What does it mean: Endure till the end.

What does BELIEVE mean?
Does it mean sometime in the past?
Does it mean right now?

 

[Triumph1300]

Matthew 24:13 King James Version (KJV)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

King James Version (KJV)

So if one does not endure till the end that one was not saved in the first place?

 

[Nancy]

Well Nancy, if you had red hair, and I kept telling you it was brunette, I think YOU would get pretty frustrated too.

I don't see BreadofLife telling Protestants what we believe...
How do we get off telling HIM what Catholics believe??

I will generally not correspond with him...he jumped at me with full barrels blasted me u and down on day one on this site...almost did not come back, lol...But God said, "grow a thicker skin" HAha. I see this arguing over and over on here...and most likely on every forum...BOL never holds back, and all I have seen is vitriol and name calling so, I pass over all of them now.
I did hesitate to get into this thread and, prob. should not have. You do know I come from a very Catholic background and ALL of my cousins, Aunts, Uncles and many friends are Catholic. I just wanted to share my opinion, didn't want to attack any person, I am sorry if anybody is offended.

 

[Triumph1300]

I read all of his posts.
And I believe he has more brains than some on this forum.
Of course I don't agree with everything, but I find he makes a lot of sense a lot of the time.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I don't have time for this and am signing off.
You and I and also with others, have gone over about how Jesus will lose NOTHING.

First of all He said NOTHING not NO ONE.
Wonder what that could possibly mean? Maybe we should all find out?

OSAS has been defeated?
Says who?
It's been around from Jesus time up until Mr. Calvin.
Just think of all those idiots that couldn't SEE IT IN SCRIPTURE before Calvin.
!!!

I do not align myself with Calvin nor do I care to be identified as a Calvinist when I am following Jesus Christ; not Calvin. Just because I look like I am sharing in the same beliefs as he is, does not mean we share in all beliefs alike. Calvin believes in putting to death heretics, and he was responsible for the death of one heretic that I know of. Jesus said any one that kills another thinking they are doing God's service, does not know the Father nor Him in John 16:1-3.

Jesus taught excommunication in dealing with unrepentant heretics, but He will get that one lost sheep even if He has gathered the 99 sheep into the barn; Matthew 18:11-17

But getting back to your question about the term nothing as if not meaning the same thing as no one.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In context, nothing is referring to "all" the Father has given Him, and the Father's will is expounded on even more in describing who that all is in verse 40.

In another thread you said this:

John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

(The iniquity of the Nicene Creed)

So, if one stops honoring the Son, HE IS STILL SAVED?

Preposterous!

Yes. He or she is still saved, but at risk of losing his or her place, part, i.e. mansion ( the inheritance ) in the city of God and from having their seat at the Marriage Supper table. Unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes...

 

[GodsGrace]

Matthew 24:13 King James Version (KJV)
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

King James Version (KJV)

So if one does not endure till the end that one was not saved in the first place?

It's not our place to know who is saved and who isn't.

Scripture covers for the above question you bring up.
Hebrews 6:4-6
2 Peter 2:20
Luke 8:13 JESUS speaking.

Also, the Prodigal Son. He was
saved
lost
saved

Also, Adam. He was
saved
lost

I believe scripture teaches and mainline Christianity believes that one could be saved and then become lost again. We have a couple of posters right here that have testified to this.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not align myself with Calvin nor do I care to be identified as a Calvinist when I am following Jesus Christ; not Calvin. Just because I look like I am sharing in the same beliefs as he is, does not mean we share in all beliefs alike. Calvin believes in putting to death heretics, and he was responsible for the death of one heretic that I know of. Jesus said any one that kills another thinking they are doing God's service, does not know the Father nor Him in John 16:1-3.

Jesus taught excommunication in dealing with unrepentant heretics, but He will get that one lost sheep even if He has gathered the 99 sheep into the barn; Matthew 18:11-17

But getting back to your question about the term nothing as if not meaning the same thing as no one.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In context, nothing is referring to "all" the Father has given Him, and the Father's will is expounded on even more in describing who that all is in verse 40.



Yes. He or she is still saved, but at risk of losing his or her place, part, i.e. mansion ( the inheritance ) in the city of God and from having their seat at the Marriage Supper table. Unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes...

It doesn't matter who you align yourself with.
You are automatically aligned with the one you agree with.
Calvin made up eternal security,,,it's called perseverance of the saints.
Whether you like it or not, this is a calvinistic idea.

Paul agreed that a sinner should be thrown out of church (Corinthians).
This is a loss of reward according to you?
Paul didn't go to his death to keep you from losing a reward...
He went to his death to teach you how to be saved.