CAN WE FALL AWAY ?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,953
3,398
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
That was the point.
Two are involved in absolutely knowing...
A man And God.
The third party onlooker simply has an indication.

A third parties "indication" may or may not be absolute.

The "indication" can be:
Hearing a confession
Witnessing a water baptism
Seeing their works


And "TRUE" those are "outward" observations.

A "KEY" observation by a third party, is actually what Is Never Heard or Seen....

Which would Be....A Truly Converted Man...
Can NEVER Deny Belief in the Lord God.

God Bless,
Taken
A person can be Baptized and not be saved.
A person can do good works and not be saved.
A person can give a false confession and not be saved.

NONE of these things guarantees that WE can read what is in their hearts - only God can.
That was the point I was making to Rollo.
The best we can do is make an educated guess - but then we fall into the trap of judging their souls.
 

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,824
25,489
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Her head is already starting to get smaller.
My cousin, Dr. Tamasi is a specialist in this area.
He'll be looking at her soon.


Okay then, the ball is rolling! I'm sure since this Dr. is also a Tamasi, he MUST be world renowned and at the top of his game. Nothing but the best for our GG!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rollo Tamasi

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,621
13,018
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Look - we've been going at this for months now
Look - your endless ...
Name calling,
False accusations,
Speaking for others, what they do not claim,
Appointing yourself THEE teacher, because you are always right and if someone does not agree with you, they are wrong.
And the poor old Protestants would not have Scripture without the Catholics...

Get a grip man, your tactics are old Satan deceptions, boring and repeated to ad nauseam.

on several threads and you have YET to show me ANY Scriptural proof for OSAS.

FLAT OUT LIE.

You have been told, shown, explained.

You can not understand.
And no one can understand it For You!

I have given you no less than NINE verses that destroy the OSAS position. Actually - I've given you MORE than that - but I'll stick with these nine passages.

You could quote the entire Bible...
Nothing whatsoever says a Converted man CAN FALL AWAY.

ALL you have shown me so far is anger, frustration, long-winded rants and a LOT of personal opinion.

Why confuse and the truth, and attempt to tell me how I feel? I have already told you how I feel...several times...
Bored and nauseated with your old worn out tactics. Angry? At what? You, your lack of understanding? Why would I be....doesn't affect me....only you.

Do you have ANY Scriptural proof in your OSAS arsenal or not??

Try doing something actually beneficial for yourself instead of being the forum bully.
Go do a word search...
On Converted
On healed
On for ever
On shall never perish

Then show ONE Scripture that makes the Lord A Liar....that a man Converted can become Un-Converted.

BECAUSE to date you have not shown One Scripture of a Converted man becoming Un-Converted or any named Converted man rejecting the Lords Conversion and again becoming a Disbeliever.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,621
13,018
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WHERE in my last post did I call you a name??

Who sid anything about "YOUR LAST" post... ? No one.


seems to be your only defense . . .

No I did not lie....Get a grip on what is said....
Repeatedly, tactics, MO....hello... that is not sparking of one post! It is speaking numerous posts on several threads.
Sheesh!

Anyway I can't pluck you out of His hand.
It seems to ME that YOU jumped out when you started rejecting HIS doctrines in favor of your own . . .

Once In His Hand ... your Fantacy of you teaching that a man can Jump out.... is beyond Scripture. Nothing whatsoever teaches such nonsense.
What it seems to you is irrelevant.
I am in His hand For ever....
And you can falsely THE Catholic doctrine ... a man can become Converted then UnConverted <--- lol
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,621
13,018
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A person can be Baptized and not be saved.
A person can do good works and not be saved.
A person can give a false confession and not be saved.

NONE of these things guarantees that WE can read what is in their hearts - only God can.
That was the point I was making to Rollo.
The best we can do is make an educated guess - but then we fall into the trap of judging their souls.


Telling me what I have already said, is unnecessary.

Have you yet Word studied and found One example of a Converted man becoming Unconverted?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,621
13,018
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
CAN WE FALL AWAY ? --- OP

Come HEAR the GOOD News....

The Savior of the World has Arrived...

Come Hear...Believe...Call on Him...
Confess your Heartfelt Belief In Him...
And....
Become Forgiven, Saved, Born Again....
And....
Forever BE In Him
And He In you.

Basic Elementary Truths...
This ain't Ripplys ... but you have the Freewill
TO Believe it or Not!

God Bless,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,824
25,489
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
CAN WE FALL AWAY ? --- OP

Come HEAR the GOOD News....

The Savior of the World has Arrived...

Come Hear...Believe...Call on Him...
Confess your Heartfelt Belief In Him...
And....
Become Forgiven, Saved, Born Again....
And....
Forever BE In Him
And He In you.

Basic Elementary Truths...
This ain't Ripplys ... but you have the Freewill
TO Believe it or Not!

God Bless,
Taken
I think the very simplicity is hard for some to accept.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,621
13,018
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think the very simplicity is hard for some to accept.

Jesus CAME for the Lost Jews....who were overwhelmingly following after the traditions, customs and likeness of those Heathen Gentiles...

AND Gee, Wow, Bang....WHO are the ones Speaking, Teaching, Promoting the Word of God Around the world?

Those heathen Gentiles, who knew not the Jewish God OR His Messiah.....YET HEARD and HEARS and TRUSTS to BELIEVE...

AND GIVE their Life For the Sake of His Great Name!

Praise our Awesome God...He is mysterious!

God Bless,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

Nancy

Well-Known Member
Apr 30, 2018
16,824
25,489
113
Buffalo, Ny
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus CAME for the Lost Jews....who were overwhelmingly following after the traditions, customs and likeness of those Heathen Gentiles...

AND Gee, Wow, Bang....WHO are the ones Speaking, Teaching, Promoting the Word of God Around the world?

Those heathen Gentiles, who knew not the Jewish God OR His Messiah.....YET HEARD and HEARS and TRUSTS to BELIEVE...

AND GIVE their Life For the Sake of His Great Name!

Praise our Awesome God...He is mysterious!

God Bless,
Taken
WORD!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Taken

Rollo Tamasi

Well-Known Member
Aug 28, 2017
2,317
1,512
113
73
Inverness, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We CAN'T.

If we stop having faith which requires both belief AND obedience - we cannot be saved.
We will be LOST, according to Scripture (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

You cannot turn your back on your Epignosis of Christ and still hope to be saved.
And who has ever done that?
OSAS
 

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,169
9,878
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We CAN'T.

If we stop having faith which requires both belief AND obedience - we cannot be saved.
We will be LOST, according to Scripture (Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

You cannot turn your back on your Epignosis of Christ and still hope to be saved.

BOL I thought it was time again to go over your famous eight 'loss of salvation' verses. Of course my meanings of them are completely different from yours, not twisted to conform to the presented premise that salvation loss = faith loss = belief loss + obedience loss based on YOUR OWN BIASED INTERPRETATION of scripture.

I would agree with your relationship, and its not really yours, it is scriptural, if you used it correctly to honor God's word. You twist this equation for your own self carnal purpose and not for God's glory.

You consistently disregard context in scripture to force your desired outcome - loss of salvation. You fancy these 8 cherry-picked verses because there are frankly not many more vulnerable ones you can easily carve up or butcher, to distort and to satisfy yourself, regardless of the truth.

I'll just do the first two verses agina. You'll get the other six cherry-picked verses soon.

Matt 5:13 - BOL logic says that ‘salt’= being obedient and having belief in God = salvation. Therefore, the loss of its (salt) flavor means loss of salvation of a believer, according to BOL. Case closed.

(Mat 5:13) You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its savour, with what shall it be salted? It becomes good for nothing but to be thrown out and trodden under the feet of men. (NEV)

Matt 5:13 has zero to do with the salvation or the threat of its loss.

The ‘salt’ like the ‘light’ are true believers reaching out to the heathen non-believing world. If a believer is to be effective in converting folks, they cannot mix the truth with false ideas of the spirit of this world or from their own mind. If they do, they compromise teaching the gospel of truth; it becomes lies. The salt or the true gospel is compromised and is no good for saving anyone. The heathen will not believe it, will not treasure it and take it to their heart. They will discard it from their minds as cheap or tarsh news of no importance to their lives.

Now the believer that spoils the teaching of the gospel does not serve God correctly or effectively. Does God then say to this believer, I will deny you for this, you have lost your salvation because you are not obedient? Of course not. And does the believer teach a false gospel because he deliberately disobeys God or loses faith because he wants to give himself glory, maybe, probably not? Does the believer then lose his salvation, of course not? That would be a wild stretch, only conceived by a determined or insecure unbeliever or a professing believer.

So BOL, do you still think Matt 5:13 is all about the loss of salvation?

To the next BOL treasured verse – Matthew 7:21

(Mat 7:21) Not everyone that says to me: Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that pleases my Father who is in heaven. (NEV)

I would suggest to BOL to add the next two verses for context.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name do many mighty works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I tell them: I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work iniquity. (ALL NEV)

Now BOL’s logic from verse 21: Not pleasing Jesus’ Father = loss of salvation = loss of faith in God = loss of belief in and obedience to God.

Now in verse 23 it clearly says that those that work lawlessness or evil do not please God.

Now in verse 22 it clearly says that those that worked evil, cast out demons and did mighty works for Christ. Now these cannot be believers. They must be unbelievers who performed these supernatural acts by the power of evil forces, and for good works, that was common in the 1st century as it is today.

Now if BOL says these were believers that fell away, then why did Jesus say he NEVER knew them in verse 23. Never means he never once knew them, ever. If these people were once believers in Christ, Jesus would have said that he used to know them but not now. They must have chosen to 'drop out' by their own-free-will to lose their salvation, aye. Of course that last statement would be completely insane. It would only make sense for an unbeliever, and it does. Unbelievers use their free-will to say who's boss in the face of God. They are of course their own god as evil once took hold of Adam in the same way.

So BOL, do you still think Matt 7:21 is all about the loss of salvation of a believer?

Bless you,


APAK
 

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,953
3,398
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
BOL I thought it was time again to go over your famous eight 'loss of salvation' verses. Of course my meanings of them are completely different from yours, not twisted to conform to the presented premise that salvation loss = faith loss = belief loss + obedience loss based on YOUR OWN BIASED INTERPRETATION of scripture.

I would agree with your relationship, and its not really yours, it is scriptural, if you used it correctly to honor God's word. You twist this equation for your own self carnal purpose and not for God's glory.

You consistently disregard context in scripture to force your desired outcome - loss of salvation. You fancy these 8 cherry-picked verses because there are frankly not many more vulnerable ones you can easily carve up or butcher, to distort and to satisfy yourself, regardless of the truth.

I'll just do the first two verses agina. You'll get the other six cherry-picked verses soon.

Matt 5:13 - BOL logic says that ‘salt’= being obedient and having belief in God = salvation. Therefore, the loss of its (salt) flavor means loss of salvation of a believer, according to BOL. Case closed.

(Mat 5:13) You are the salt of the earth, but if the salt has lost its savour, with what shall it be salted? It becomes good for nothing but to be thrown out and trodden under the feet of men. (NEV)

Matt 5:13 has zero to do with the salvation or the threat of its loss.

The ‘salt’ like the ‘light’ are true believers reaching out to the heathen non-believing world. If a believer is to be effective in converting folks, they cannot mix the truth with false ideas of the spirit of this world or from their own mind. If they do, they compromise teaching the gospel of truth; it becomes lies. The salt or the true gospel is compromised and is no good for saving anyone. The heathen will not believe it, will not treasure it and take it to their heart. They will discard it from their minds as cheap or tarsh news of no importance to their lives.

Now the believer that spoils the teaching of the gospel does not serve God correctly or effectively. Does God then say to this believer, I will deny you for this, you have lost your salvation because you are not obedient? Of course not. And does the believer teach a false gospel because he deliberately disobeys God or loses faith because he wants to give himself glory, maybe, probably not? Does the believer then lose his salvation, of course not? That would be a wild stretch, only conceived by a determined or insecure unbeliever or a professing believer.
So BOL, do you still think Matt 5:13 is all about the loss of salvation?
This is absolute RUBBISH.

Jesus didn't say that the Gospel message was the "Salt" - he said that His FOLLOWERS were the Salt - and the LIGHT of the world. Is the FOLLOWER (salt) loses its flavor then it is worthless and should be trampled underfoot.

This is absolutely about a loss of salvation.
To the next BOL treasured verse – Matthew 7:21

(Mat 7:21) Not everyone that says to me: Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that pleases my Father who is in heaven. (NEV)

I would suggest to BOL to add the next two verses for context.

(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons and in your name do many mighty works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I tell them: I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work iniquity. (ALL NEV)

Now BOL’s logic from verse 21: Not pleasing Jesus’ Father = loss of salvation = loss of faith in God = loss of belief in and obedience to God.

Now in verse 23 it clearly says that those that work lawlessness or evil do not please God.

Now in verse 22 it clearly says that those that worked evil, cast out demons and did mighty works for Christ. Now these cannot be believers. They must be unbelievers who performed these supernatural acts by the power of evil forces, and for good works, that was common in the 1st century as it is today.
Now if BOL says these were believers that fell away, then why did Jesus say he NEVER knew them in verse 23. Never means he never once knew them, ever. If these people were once believers in Christ, Jesus would have said that he used to know them but not now. They must have chosen to 'drop out' by their own-free-will to lose their salvation, aye. Of course that last statement would be completely insane. It would only make sense for an unbeliever, and it does. Unbelievers use their free-will to say who's boss in the face of God. They are of course their own god as evil once took hold of Adam in the same way.

So BOL, do you still think Matt 7:21 is all about the loss of salvation of a believer?
Bless you,
APAK
As for Matt. 7:21 - you're correct.

For some reason, when I have been listing the entire text of the verses on previous posts - it's been:
Matt. 5:13, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 John 2:24, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.

ALL
of these have to do with a loss of salvation.

However, I have been erroneously copying and pasting the following list from a similar article I wrote on the subject:
Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GodsGrace

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,953
3,398
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Baptized with water and not be saved?
Correct

Baptized with the Holy Spirit and not be saved?
False
A person can be Baptized with the Holy Spirit - and later fall away and be LOST by his own doing.
Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,621
13,018
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
A person can be Baptized with the Holy Spirit - and later fall away and be LOST by his own doing.

That is False.

That is your own corrupt teaching.

That is your own lack of understanding.

Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.

Trying providing ONE Scripture whereby a Converted mans Salvation has been Lost....
Because these Scripture you keep repeating say no such thing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Nancy

APAK

Well-Known Member
Feb 4, 2018
9,169
9,878
113
Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is absolute RUBBISH.

Jesus didn't say that the Gospel message was the "Salt" - he said that His FOLLOWERS were the Salt - and the LIGHT of the world. Is the FOLLOWER (salt) loses its flavor then it is worthless and should be trampled underfoot.

This is absolutely about a loss of salvation.

As for Matt. 7:21 - you're correct.

For some reason, when I have been listing the entire text of the verses on previous posts - it's been:
Matt. 5:13, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 John 2:24, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.

ALL
of these have to do with a loss of salvation.

However, I have been erroneously copying and pasting the following list from a similar article I wrote on the subject:
Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.
BOL yes, the believer is the salt by himself/herself. I never said the gospel is the salt or light. The instruments of God's purpose, the believer, is tested (purity of salt, even of light) by exercising his/her mouth and hands, spreading the good news! That's when we know if their salt is true (near pure) or not and by the unbelievers reaction to the message. You have heard the expression 'they are worth their salt.'..that's where is originally comes from, this part of scripture.

Now no believer is 100% pure salt, we are not perfect. Although the scripture is saying we better be as pure to be effective in bring in new converts. Some believers are more effective than others. You said spoiled salt is useless and good for nothing. YOu have the meaning all wrong. The unbeliever treated it as good for nothing, and is not effective for their gain -it is worthless to them, not that God has trashed the believer and sentence him/her death. That is a warped view.

I really think you look at this again, because BOL....you are wrong on your view. You keep saying things like rubbish, like to this topic, but you at the same time cannot provide any useful reasoning for your stance. Why is that? No one including myself can take you seriously, and that you really believe what you say. By now you must have gotten this message?

Bless you,

APAK
This is absolute RUBBISH.

Jesus didn't say that the Gospel message was the "Salt" - he said that His FOLLOWERS were the Salt - and the LIGHT of the world. Is the FOLLOWER (salt) loses its flavor then it is worthless and should be trampled underfoot.

This is absolutely about a loss of salvation.

As for Matt. 7:21 - you're correct.

For some reason, when I have been listing the entire text of the verses on previous posts - it's been:
Matt. 5:13, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 John 2:24, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.

ALL
of these have to do with a loss of salvation.

However, I have been erroneously copying and pasting the following list from a similar article I wrote on the subject:
Matt. 5:13, Matt. 7:21, Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:20-22, 2 Peter 3:17, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19.