Can We Honor Jesus Christ Through His Mother Mary? a debate

[BreadOfLife]

Well we have entirly contradicting points. AGAIN my point is that just because God said something (or allowed or aplroved or was pleased with... Whatever you want to say) at one point in time is not permission to do it all the time. Do you really want to split hairs on this? Ok. God allowed 4 cherubims and a brass serpent. Where did he say make statues of people?

My point is that its not ok to break God's law just because of a very few cases of presidence.

And once again... Its covered by grace to have them today. Not worship them... And if you say you don't I am fine with it.

Your point as i understand it is that Solomon built cerubims and moses had a brass snake, so its open season on statue making!

Well under grace sure! But it was against the law

Your point is a weak one and this is why:
Where does God allow us to eat spaghetti??
Where did God say it was okay to listen to rock & roll music??
Where did God say that we could drive cars??

God doesn't forbid the making of statues - only the WORSHIP of them as gods.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand??

Making statues and taking photographs and painting pictures is not forbidden.
WORSHIPING them is . . .

 

[FHII]

God didn't say, "Thou shalt not kill." He said, "Thou shalt not MURDER."
Two different things altogether. Ecclesiastes tells us that there is a time for everything - even a time to kill.
If somebody came into your house and threatened to kill your children - it is your DUTY to protect them - even if it means killing the attacker.

As for telling his prophet to go to a prostitute - where did God tell him to go and buy her sexual services??
He didn't - so your point is moot.

Exodus 20:13 KJV
Thou shalt not kill.

There it is.

Now I know you are going to want to go to strong's, talk about other translations and nitpick everything to death, and then I am going to do the same. We will both go to the deepest, most obscure Bible verses like a couple of laywers who substitute martini's for sleep!

Lets skip that. I can write that script and I am sure you could too. Let me just acknowledge that I know the definition of "kill" in this verse. I kbow other translations say murder.

What is my theme here BOL? What is my main point? If you don't know, its not my fault because Ive stated it several times.

Now about whoredom/harlotry/prostitution. I suspect you know what incident Im speaking of. For the benefit of the community who may not know, I am speaking of Hosea. Look at ch 1 -3.

I suppose indirectly I made reference to paying for sexual services, but not directly and the truth of the matter is that yes, Hosea DID pay money for her.

But this whole story hinges on Hosea being told to do something contradictory to the law and doing so in many ways. Read the text. Hosea was instructed to do this naturally (and it went on for at least 18 months) to show what Israel and Judeah were doing spiritually.

And again the point I am trying to make is that just because God says its ok here....

 

[FHII]

Your point is a weak one and this is why:
Where does God allow us to eat spaghetti??
Where did God say it was okay to listen to rock & roll music??
Where did God say that we could drive cars??

God doesn't forbid the making of statues - only the WORSHIP of them as gods.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand??

Making statues and taking photographs and painting pictures is not forbidden.
WORSHIPING them is . . .

Yes it actually was forbidden. God said don't make them. Don't don't serve them. Don't bow down to them. None of that means its ok to make them as long as you don't worship rhem.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Exodus 20:13 KJV
Thou shalt not kill.

There it is.

Now I know you are going to want to go to strong's, talk about other translations and nitpick everything to death, and then I am going to do the same. We will both go to the deepest, most obscure Bible verses like a couple of laywers who substitute martini's for sleep!

Lets skip that. I can write that script and I am sure you could too. Let me just acknowledge that I know the definition of "kill" in this verse. I kbow other translations say murder.

What is my theme here BOL? What is my main point? If you don't know, its not my fault because Ive stated it several times.

Now about whoredom/harlotry/prostitution. I suspect you know what incident Im speaking of. For the benefit of the community who may not know, I am speaking of Hosea. Look at ch 1 -3.

I suppose indirectly I made reference to paying for sexual services, but not directly and the truth of the matter is that yes, Hosea DID pay money for her.

But this whole story hinges on Hosea being told to do something contradictory to the law and doing so in many ways. Read the text. Hosea was instructed to do this naturally (and it went on for at least 18 months) to show what Israel and Judeah were doing spiritually.

And again the point I am trying to make is that just because God says its ok here....

And again - your point is weak because you're trying to make God into a hypocrite.
God didn't tell Hosea to purchase prostitution.
God didn't say, "Thou shalt not KILL." He said, "Thou shalt not MURDER."

Killing is not always wrong - but murder is.
Making statues is NEVER wrong - unless you worship them or use them to glorify evil.

You need to understand this because you are stuck in a human pattern of reasoning here instead of Godly understanding.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes it actually was forbidden. God said don't make them. Don't don't serve them. Don't bow down to them. None of that means its ok to make them as long as you don't worship rhem.

And I'll prove you wrong.
How many commandments did God write on the Tablets He gave to Moses?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes it actually was forbidden. God said don't make them. Don't don't serve them. Don't bow down to them. None of that means its ok to make them as long as you don't worship rhem.

I'll go ahead and answer the question:
Exodus 34:28 tells us that there are “Ten” commandments, even though Bible doesn’t number them. As a matter of fact, if you were to count all of the “You shall nots” alongside the other two that command the keeping of the Sabbath and honoring your father and mother – you would wind up with at least thirteen. Numbering them depends on exactly which “You shall nots” you group together and which ones you leave separate.

The Catholic rendering of this commandment is encapsulated in ONE Commandment:
"You shall not have other gods beside me."

The Protestant rendering of this commandment is broken up into TWO:

*"You shall have no other gods but me.
*"You shall not make unto you any graven images."

Here is the actual text of the commandment from Exodus - and it shows no less that THREE "Shall nots":

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
You shall not have other gods beside me. You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or serve them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but showing love down to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the CONTEXT of Scripture is talking about worshiping images - not creating them. Otherwise God is a hypocrite for ordering Moses to make statues.

 

[FHII]

And I'll prove you wrong.
How many commandments did God write on the Tablets He gave to Moses?

No you won't.

Your question is irrelevant. You are also kitpicking instead of seeing the overall poi t.

 

[FHII]

I'll go ahead and answer the question:
Exodus 34:28 tells us that there are “Ten” commandments, even though Bible doesn’t number them. As a matter of fact, if you were to count all of the “You shall nots” alongside the other two that command the keeping of the Sabbath and honoring your father and mother – you would wind up with at least thirteen. Numbering them depends on exactly which “You shall nots” you group together and which ones you leave separate.

The Catholic rendering of this commandment is encapsulated in ONE Commandment:
"You shall not have other gods beside me."

The Protestant rendering of this commandment is broken up into TWO:

*"You shall have no other gods but me.
*"You shall not make unto you any graven images."

Here is the actual text of the commandment from Exodus - and it shows no less that THREE "Shall nots":

I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
You shall not have other gods beside me. You shall not make for yourself an idol or a likeness of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or serve them. For I, the LORD, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their ancestors’ wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation; but showing love down to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that the CONTEXT of Scripture is talking about worshiping images - not creating them. Otherwise God is a hypocrite for ordering Moses to make statues.

I am already aware of what the original says and it proves my point. Sentance structure says don't make them in the first place.

Just because God said it was ok with the cherubims and the brass snake doesn't make it ok elsewhere.

 

[FHII]

And I'll prove you wrong.
How many commandments did God write on the Tablets He gave to Moses?

Well 31 minutes you asked that question. 12 minutes ago you decided to answer that question. You even put the word "answer" in bold as if I wouldn't answer it.

You gave me 18 minutes to answer the question and most of that time was probably spent typing your response.

You really don't seem interested in what I have to say.... Tou seem more interested in what you have to say.

 

[FHII]

BOL,

Do you agree or disagree with this statement:

Just because God gave permission to some to break God's law does not mean give one permission to do it in all circumstances?

It is a yes or no question.

 

[FHII]

Mamma tells her child: "Don't go to the convient store. Don't go there and buy candy and don't go there and buy a slupee."

So the child goes to the convient store and buys a comic book.

Child logic sees that as ok.

 

[FHII]

BOL,

Do you agree or disagree with this statement:

Just because God gave permission to some to break God's law does not mean give one permission to do it in all circumstances?

It is a yes or no question.

I will go ahead an answer the question. No it isn't! God said though shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor and then ordained lying spirits. Yet he doesn't want us ro do it even though Samson did, even tbough Samuel did, even though Rehab did.... Even though God sent strong delusions.

 

[Mungo]

I am already aware of what the original says and it proves my point. Sentance structure says don't make them in the first place.

Just because God said it was ok with the cherubims and the brass snake doesn't make it ok elsewhere.

You haven't responded to the point that Protestants break EX 20:3-6 into two commandments and thus falsify the context of Ex 20:4.

Note- the Jews, to whom the Commandments were given, treat Ex 20:3-6 as one commandment.

Another point is that the Ten Commandments were given to the Jews as Covenant Law for the Sinai Covenant. They were not given to Gentiles, or indeed the Israelites before the Sinai Covenant. As such they are not applicable to Christians.

 

[FHII]

You haven't responded to the point that Protestants break EX 20:3-6 into two commandments and thus falsify the context of Ex 20:4.

Note- the Jews, to whom the Commandments were given, treat Ex 20:3-6 as one commandment.

Another point is that the Ten Commandments were given to the Jews as Covenant Law for the Sinai Covenant. They were not given to Gentiles, or indeed the Israelites before the Sinai Covenant. As such they are not applicable to Christians.

I am not a protestant to begin with so why should I? Furthermore, we alk break Law daily on many points.

The Jewish text divides the point between not having any images and not worshioping them even more than our Bible does.

The point about Christians is something I have painstakingly been saying for quite some time. We are ynder grace not the law. Therefore I don't see a oroblem with Catholics having them as long as they aren't bei g worshiped. I have said since tthe Catholics here say they don't i will believe them

Yet, no one even acknowledges that Ive said that.

 

[Mungo]

The Jewish text divides the point between not having any images and not worshioping them even more than our Bible does.

I have looked at several Jewish sites and they all consider Ex 20:3-6 as one commandment
For example:
Judaism 101: Aseret ha-Dibrot: The "Ten Commandments"
The Ten Commandments | My Jewish Learning
The Ten Commandments

The point about Christians is something I have painstakingly been saying for quite some time. We are ynder grace not the law. Therefore I don't see a oroblem with Catholics having them as long as they aren't bei g worshiped. I have said since tthe Catholics here say they don't i will believe them

Yet, no one even acknowledges that Ive said that.

My apologies then. I shall try to remember that in future.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well 31 minutes you asked that question. 12 minutes ago you decided to answer that question. You even put the word "answer" in bold as if I wouldn't answer it.

You gave me 18 minutes to answer the question and most of that time was probably spent typing your response.

You really don't seem interested in what I have to say.... Tou seem more interested in what you have to say.

Look - I get the point you are trying to make - but it's weak, at best.
You're trying to say that creating images is a bad thing - but God allowed it in a few instances.

The whole point here is that making images is NOT a bad thing and was NEVER forbidden. The worship of them as gods is what God forbade - so your entire point is moot.

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL,

Do you agree or disagree with this statement:

Just because God gave permission to some to break God's law does not mean give one permission to do it in all circumstances?

It is a yes or no question.

No - it's a loaded and baseless question.
It would be like ME asking YOU: "Have you stopped beating your spouse??" - yes or no.

God didn't give permission to ANYBODY to break ANY one of His Laws - EVER.
Creating images was never against God's Law.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Mamma tells her child: "Don't go to the convient store. Don't go there and buy candy and don't go there and buy a slupee."

So the child goes to the convient store and buys a comic book.

Child logic sees that as ok.

That's NOT what God was saying.

If the mother forbids her child from to the convenient store for ANY reason - she would never approve of him going there on several occasions later on. The prohibition here is about buying slurpees and candy - NOT going to the store. If something is evil - it is ALWAYS evil and God will never be the author of evil.

To imply that He is - is heresy.

 

[FHII]

o - it's a loaded and baseless question.
It would be like ME asking YOU: "Have you stopped beating your spouse??" - yes or no.

What are tou talking about? It nothing like that question at all!

 

[FHII]

That's NOT what God was saying.

If the mother forbids her child from to the convenient store for ANY reason - she would never approve of him going there on several occasions later on. The prohibition here is about buying slurpees and candy - NOT going to the store. If something is evil - it is ALWAYS evil and God will never be the author of evil.

To imply that He is - is heresy.

It is 100% exactly what God is saying.

I don't see what evil has to do with this...

Are you accusing me of being a heretic or of heresy?