Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

[The Light]

On the other hand once the resurrection/rapture happens...and then the treaty is in effect...we can count the days till Jesus physical coming to earth as told about in Rev 19.

This is incorrect. The rapture has absolutely nothing to with a treaty being in effect.

The 7 year covenant with many is what begins the final week. The rapture of the Church will occur after the week begins and before the great tribulation.

 

[CrowCross]

IMO, it is absurd that there could be this time marker, a Pretrib rapture in this case, that then begins the countdown to the hour and day of His return.

We don't know the day or hour. of Jesus' return at the resurrection/rapture event.

If that scenario was possible, Jesus would not have said no man knows the day or the hour.

That's right we don't know the day or hour of the resurrection/rapture event.

It would make Him a liar and a false prophet,

No, It would mean we don't know the day or hour of the resurrection/rapture event.

When you begin with a false premise then try and use that false premise to prove the point

No, it simply points out that we don't know the day or hour of the resurrection/rapture event.

 

[CrowCross]

The 70th week begins and Jesus ministers 3.5 years and then is cut off. That leaves 3.5 years.

I confirmed this with Daniel 12 which says there is time, times and a half until all is complete

Show how this confirms.
What is the day of the first week and what day did Jesus start His ministry.

All you have done is thrown out numbers...then made a claim.

 

[CrowCross]

This is incorrect. The rapture has absolutely nothing to with a treaty being in effect.

No...2nd Thes 2 says the gathering...the departure...rapture...restrainer removed happens prior to the treaty.

The 7 year covenant with many is what begins the final week. The rapture of the Church will occur after the week begins and before the great tribulation.

Where is your verses that explain this???????

 

[TribulationSigns]

That seems to be a nasty thing to say about another christian.

Not if its the truth. Yes, the pretribulation rapture doctrine is false and is NOT gospel.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Tell that to the Essenes Jews.

Huh? That is a strange appeal to the Essenes, because it does absolutely nothing to prove your interpretation of Revelation.

Yes, the Qumran community associated by many scholars with the Essenes used a 364-day solar calendar. But their calendar was a sectarian practice, not a divine command telling Christians how to interpret the numbers in Revelation.

More importantly, you have not answered my actual argument. Where does Revelation itself say that its “1,260 days,” “42 months,” or “time, times, and half a time” must be converted into 3½ literal solar years and inserted into a prophetic calendar? Simply pointing to the Essenes doesn't establish that.

You're committing a basic category error: an ancient Jewish sect having a calendar does not prove that John's apocalyptic numbers are intended as a literal chronological timetable.

And there is another problem with your argument: even the identification of the Qumran community with the Essenes is a scholarly conclusion, not an indisputable fact. The Library of Congress notes that many scholars make that identification while others argue that the evidence is insufficient to attribute all the sectarian material to one group.

So if you want to establish that Revelation teaches 3½ literal years, don't appeal to the Essenes. Show it from Revelation. Demonstrate from the text itself that John intended these numbers as a literal calendar calculation rather than apocalyptic symbolism.

Until you can do that, “Tell that to the Essenes” isn't an argument. It's a distraction from the exegetical question.

Scripture must govern the interpretation—not the Essenes, not a prophetic chart, and not a doctrinal system imposed upon the text.

Hello?! Again...do better.

 

[CrowCross]

Not if its the truth. Yes, the pretribulation rapture doctrine is false and is NOT gospel.

LOL....because you say so doesn't make it so.

NEXT

 

[CrowCross]

Huh? That is a strange appeal to the Essenes, because it does absolutely nothing to prove your interpretation of Revelation.

Yes, the Qumran community associated by many scholars with the Essenes used a 364-day solar calendar. But their calendar was a sectarian practice, not a divine command telling Christians how to interpret the numbers in Revelation.

More importantly, you have not answered my actual argument. Where does Revelation itself say that its “1,260 days,” “42 months,” or “time, times, and half a time” must be converted into 3½ literal solar years and inserted into a prophetic calendar? Simply pointing to the Essenes doesn't establish that.

You're committing a basic category error: an ancient Jewish sect having a calendar does not prove that John's apocalyptic numbers are intended as a literal chronological timetable.

And there is another problem with your argument: even the identification of the Qumran community with the Essenes is a scholarly conclusion, not an indisputable fact. The Library of Congress notes that many scholars make that identification while others argue that the evidence is insufficient to attribute all the sectarian material to one group.

So if you want to establish that Revelation teaches 3½ literal years, don't appeal to the Essenes. Show it from Revelation. Demonstrate from the text itself that John intended these numbers as a literal calendar calculation rather than apocalyptic symbolism.

Until you can do that, “Tell that to the Essenes” isn't an argument. It's a distraction from the exegetical question.

Scripture must govern the interpretation—not the Essenes, not a prophetic chart, and not a doctrinal system imposed upon the text.

Hello?! Again...do better.

The Essenes knew when to look for Jesus the first time around using Daniel 9.

BTW...the tribulation will span 7 years.

 

[The Light]

Show how this confirms.
What is the day of the first week and what day did Jesus start His ministry.

Gospel accounts do not give explicit calendar dates. The years are 26 AD or 27 AD.

All you have done is thrown out numbers...then made a claim.

Jesus shows up as Messiah after 69 weeks according to the Word of God.

He is cut off after 3.5 years of ministry. What seems to be the problem?

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus shows up as Messiah after 69 weeks according to the Word of God.

He is cut off after 3.5 years of ministry. What seems to be the problem?

Does Daniel say shows up or cut off?

From what I have read from those who have done the math the cut off date leaves 7 more years.
I'm not really going to argue it anymore unless you show the dates and the math.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL....because you say so doesn't make it so.

NEXT

Because you say so” works both ways. You don’t get to dismiss an argument with “LOL… NEXT” simply because you don’t want to deal with the Scriptures behind it.

I’m not claiming the pretribulation rapture is false merely because I personally dislike it. I’m saying it is not taught in Scripture. The doctrine requires assumptions that the biblical text itself never states—such as a secret coming of Christ years before His visible return, a separate resurrection/rapture event, and a prophetic timetable built around a supposed literal seven-year tribulation.

If you believe those doctrines are biblical, then show the actual texts that teach them rather than hiding behind sarcasm and “NEXT.” Scripture is the authority—not your doctrinal system, mine, or anyone else’s.

And calling out a false doctrine is not “being nasty to Christians.” If a teaching contradicts the gospel and the Word of God, Christians have a responsibility to expose the error. Truth does not become unloving simply because someone finds it offensive.

Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Essenes knew when to look for Jesus the first time around using Daniel 9.

BTW...the tribulation will span 7 years.

That still doesn’t prove your argument. The fact that the Essenes may have used Daniel 9 to anticipate the Messiah does not establish your interpretation of Revelation, nor does it prove a future seven-year Tribulation.

You keep jumping from “the Essenes used Daniel 9” to “therefore Revelation teaches a future seven-year Tribulation.” That weak conclusion simply does not follow.

And regarding your claim that “the Tribulation will span 7 years”—where EXACTLY does Scripture actually call Daniel’s 70th week a literal seven-year Tribulation? Daniel 9:27 says one “week” is divided in the midst, but the text never uses the phrase “seven-year Tribulation.” That is an interpretive framework imposed upon the passage.

In fact, Daniel 9:24 explicitly gives the purpose of the seventy weeks: to finish transgression, put an end to sin, atone for iniquity, bring everlasting righteousness, and anoint the Most Holy. Those are redemptive purposes fulfilled in Christ which confirmed the week — not instructions for constructing a future prophetic calendar by your fantasy so-called Antichrist.

And let's return to the point you keep avoiding: Revelation never says, “Daniel’s seventieth week is a future seven-year Tribulation,” nor does it tell us to take its 1,260 days, 42 months, and “time, times, and half a time” and combine them into a literal seven-year timetable.

If you want to defend that doctrine, then defend it from the text. I am waiting!

The Essenes does NOT get to interpret Revelation for you.
A prophecy charts, like @Douggg, does NOT get to interpret Revelation for you.
And a premillennial system does NOT get to interpret Revelation for you.

The question remains: Where does Scripture actually teach what you are claiming?

Until you can establish that from the text, “the Tribulation will span 7 years” is an assertion—not an exegetical conclusion.

The ball is in your court. Selah!

 

[The Light]

Does Daniel say shows up or cut off?

The Word of God clearly says UNTO MESSIAH THE PRINCE

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

From what I have read from those who have done the math the cut off date leaves 7 more years.

I would say they failed math. I could likely get in MIT in my day and my sister has a masters and teaches math in college.

I'm not really going to argue it anymore unless you show the dates and the math.

I already showed that from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the prince is 69 weeks according to scripture.
After 69 weeks Messiah is cut off. That would be 3.5 years later. Therefore, there are only 3.5 years remaining in the 70th week of Daniel.
Those three and a half weeks begin when the abomination of desolation is set up. This the time of Jacobs trouble.

Daniel 12 confirms there are 3.5 remaining in the 70th week as that is the time for the people of Daniel............the 70 weeks.

If you want to believe what is taught instead looking at the Word of God for yourself, there is nothing I can do about that.