Can we know the day and hour of Jesus' return?

[Dave Watchman]

I can agree with a couple things you're saying. Like there's a seven year span of time in the end times, separate from the 70th week that ran from 27AD to 34AD.

And Jesus has two more visitations to earth. And the next one He doesn't come to stay for long, when He comes to take us to His Father's House with many rooms.

I agree we are taken from the earth before the wrath begins, and the fire destruction occurs after the 1000 years.

I am amazed that everyone here has such differing ideas about the various details.

We also know the tribulation starts when the anti-Christ incorporates the "peace contract"....So why can't we add 2,520 days or 2,555 days from the moment the peace contract is signed? At that point it's pretty much a 50/50 guess as we don't know what number to use.
But, the bible says the peace contract will be broken after 3 1/2 years. That is 1,277 days or 1,260 days after the contract is signed.
Once the antiChrist declares himself to be God on day 1,277 or day 1,260.....all we have to do is add either 1,277 or 1,260 days to which number turned out to be correct.....and show Matt 24:36 has some problems as the day can be predicted.

But even though your logic with trying to pin down the 70th week is not all bad, it relies on you being 100% correct with exactly what this "peace deal" is. And what the tribulation is. And what the signing of the peace contract is. Then He will confirm a covenant with many for one week. If you are wrong about what this is, you will miss the whole week, the beginning of the week, the middle of the week, and the end of the week.
But it is one whole and complete heptad. It's not 1/2 of the week continued from the 1st century. There's two sets of 70 weeks, two 70th weeks.

But even if I know for certain, the month when the week began in the endtimes, the middle of that week when He put an end to ALL sacrifices, and ALL offerings, and so I would also know the month when the 70th heptad concluded, I still can not know the exact day or hour when Jesus comes to do the 1st resurrection. The blessed and holy resurrection.

What Jesus said about no man can know the day or the hour, not the angels, not even the Son, is still true. I know we don't want it to be true, but it's still true.

When Jesus got to heaven He was given the Book with the seven seals. That's the Book which made everyone in heaven cry, because nobody there could open it. Only Jesus could open the book of Life. The Book with 7 seals is the Book of Life.

When Jesus was on earth He said to rejoice that our names are written in heaven. In Revelation Jesus said that He would never BLOT out our names from the Book of Life. But when He was first given the Book sealed with seven seals, the Book of Life, our names were already written in the Book. The Father was the One who wrote them. Those names only the Father knows.

I know this still doesn't make sense to the Amils or the Preterists, or the Premils, or the Rapture People. This forum seems to be just a big debate between the theologies. And some have said Jesus can come whenever He wants. I don't agree. It depends on what you think the state of the earth will be during the thousand years of Revelation 20. I read one guy say there will be survivors of the tribulation. A mix of immortal resurrected saints, and human people living together in a millennium on earth. I even read one guy who everyone knows, whos been on the forums forever say nobody gets eternal life until after the 1000 years are finished.

But if that guy is wrong, everybody who's going in the first resurrection, has to be here now.

The 5th seal souls beneath the alter asked "how long Oh Lord. How long will it be? When are you coming to avenge our blood. They were told to wait, they were given white robes and told to wait for a short season. Until the NUMBER of their brothers and fellow servants got here and were killed as they had been. There's still an uncertain space of time, an indeterminate section of time which takes place before Christ comes, while we wait for specific people to get here.

You asked a guy in the thread, when did Revelation 8 happen? If I knew for sure it began about half ways through 2021, about 1/2 to 3/4's of the way through. And that the five months of Revelation 9 started in the first half of 2022, the 1st Vial coincident with the 5th Trumpet, I still can't know the day and the hour when Christ comes for His Bride.

It's like trying to predict when the last baby will be born. When will the final Saint get here, so the Saints can go marching in. You want to be in that NUMBER. Woe to pregnant women, and women with new babies in those days.

Yes, we know the pre-tribulation rapture of the bride of Christ is near.

I can also agree with this. It just depends on you having the right definition of the tribulation. I think the pre-trib people will not be disappointed when Christ comes and they discover that the actual no flesh saved alive tribulation just happened.

Yup, Jesus will come back for His bride and rapture them from the wrath.

I can also agree with this. When Jesus comes back next as the White horse Rider to tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty to execute divine judgment, we are not going to be on earth. We won't be here for the great feast of God, when the birds gorge themselves with flesh. Maybe we'll see it from the stratosphere, right before we go to the Father's House, but we won't be here.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[CrowCross]

Regardless when it occurs is not the issue. The issue is, if taken in the literal sense, where does everyone go while the planet is supposedly engulfed in flames? And what Scripture shows everyone returning after the planet supposedly burned entirely up?

Scripture please that shows your point.

Per Noah's flood, for example. Not one single person left the planet during any of that. In this case that point has nothing to do with Pretrib vs Post trib Not the reason I brought it up.

The point of Noah..and Lot...is the state the planet was in when tribulation occurred.
They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage then...They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built......does that sound like the end of the tribulation or your fiery description above? If so, how????

But if the planet is literally engulfed in flames, be it when Christ comes, or be it a 1000 years later, there won't be an ark anyone can build that can sustain the entire planet engulfed in flames, though. Not to mention, what happens to the entire animal kingdom per a scenario such as this. IOW, there would no longer be an animal kingdom, period.

What's inside new Jerusalem?

 

[Davidpt]

Scripture please that shows your point.

What point? I can't provide you any Scriptures for a view I don't even hold nor a view not found in the Bible itself. I don't think the universe nor the planet will be literally engulfed in flames regardless when 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning. All I know is, there are many Premils who conclude that 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming, and that some of these Premils, so maybe not all these Premils, take 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the literal sense.

Though, I too am Premil, I do not agree with other Premils that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning when they take it to mean. It is absurd to apply it to that era of time. The very same DOTL meant in 1 Thess 5:3 is obviously the very same DOTL meant in 2 Peter 3:10-12. And not one single person past nor in the present would remotely apply 1 Thess 5:3 to a time period 1000 years post the 2nd coming.

IOW, there are not numerous DOTL that come as a thief in the night at different times. There is only one DOTL that comes as a thief in the night, that being the one mentioned in both 1 Thess 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. And since no one would apply 1 Thess 5:3 to that of a thousand years post the 2nd coming, one is to treat 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the same manner since they are obviously both the same DOTL that comes as a thief in the night only one time, not more than one time at different times.

The point of Noah..and Lot...is the state the planet was in when tribulation occurred.
They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage then...They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built......does that sound like the end of the tribulation or your fiery description above? If so, how????

In 2 Peter 3:10-12, the DOTL is not being compared to tribulation, it is being compared to judgment of the ungodly, it is being compared to Noah's flood. The NT teaches, tribulation first, judgment afterwards. 2 Peter 3:10-12 never focus' on tribulation. It focus' on judgment after tribulation had preceded it

 

[CrowCross]

What point? I can't provide you any Scriptures for a view I don't even hold nor a view not found in the Bible itself. I don't think the universe nor the planet will be literally engulfed in flames regardless when 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning. All I know is, there are many Premils who conclude that 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming, and that some of these Premils, so maybe not all these Premils, take 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the literal sense.

Though, I too am Premil, I do not agree with other Premils that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning when they take it to mean. It is absurd to apply it to that era of time. The very same DOTL meant in 1 Thess 5:3 is obviously the very same DOTL meant in 2 Peter 3:10-12. And not one single person past nor in the present would remotely apply 1 Thess 5:3 to a time period 1000 years post the 2nd coming.

IOW, there are not numerous DOTL that come as a thief in the night at different times. There is only one DOTL that comes as a thief in the night, that being the one mentioned in both 1 Thess 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. And since no one would apply 1 Thess 5:3 to that of a thousand years post the 2nd coming, one is to treat 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the same manner since they are obviously both the same DOTL that comes as a thief in the night only one time, not more than one time at different times.



In 2 Peter 3:10-12, the DOTL is not being compared to tribulation, it is being compared to judgment of the ungodly, it is being compared to Noah's flood. The NT teaches, tribulation first, judgment afterwards. 2 Peter 3:10-12 never focus' on tribulation. It focus' on judgment after tribulation had preceded it

The way I understand it is the fiery end comes after the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

 

[PinSeeker]

Even though you too are an Amil...

Yes, but... and this is a bit nit-picky... I prefer the term Nunc-mill. The 'a' prefix means 'none,' or that there is no millennium (so it's a misnomer), whereas the 'nunc' prefix means 'now.' God's millennium is present. Since Pentecost and until God's Israel is completed (fullness of the Gentiles brought in and the partial hardening now on Israel removed), as Paul puts it in Romans 11:25-26.

...other Amils typically insist Jesus never sets foot on earth until after the GWTJ...

Hmmm, well that would make them... "bad Amills." <smile> I'm not sure I've ever heard of an ammillinialist state that... So right now, I'm just going to say you're mistaken about that. It's neither here nor there, really, but if you have a reference to an ammillennial commentator... or scholar... or... whatever... stating or advocating that, I'd like to see it. If you just quote somebody on this board, though... <chuckles>

, you appear to be an Amil who is capable of reasoning coherently, unlike some other Amils whose interpretations do not always seem to follow a consistent line of reasoning.

Ummm.... thanks... I mean, as I insinuated above, though, on this board you're going to see all kinds of folks saying all kinds of... oh, you know... things... <smile>

For example, some Amils argue that the entire planet will be engulfed in flames when Jesus returns.

Maybe so. They're wrong. <smile>

Therefore, they conclude that Jesus could not literally set foot on the earth at that time, even if He desired to, because the earth would already be in a destroyed and uninhabitable condition. According to that view, no living creatures would remain, because all life---including the entire animal kingdom---would have been burned up.

Welll, Jesus was in the fiery inferno with Shadrach, Mashach, and Abednego, so... He could... and they could... But yeah, nothing will be engulfed in flames. Like I said, there's all kinds on this board...

...even among Amils there can be significant differences in how certain passages are interpreted. One Amil may understand a passage one way, while another Amil may interpret the same passage differently.

Premills too... <smile> Really even more so; there's several different kinds of pre-mills out there.

With that in mind, the following questions may not necessarily be for you to answer, but rather for those other Amils I have in mind to answer.

Ohhhh, that's dangerous. Don't be surprised if you get several answers for each... <smile> This is just not the place to find consistency of opinions, even among supposedly like-minded folks.

And we all know who some of those people are, correct?

Sure.

Consider Acts 1:11----Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Nowhere in this verse do the angels say that Jesus will return in like manner only after the Great White Throne Judgment. The verse simply states that the same Jesus who was taken up into heaven will come again in the same manner in which He was seen departing.

Right.

In light of Acts 1:11, what passages in the NT are intended to fulfill that prophecy?

What about Matthew 25:31?---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.

Why would this passage not be referring to the same return described in Acts 1:11?

Right, it does. And, as I said before, Paul describes the same event in 1 Thessalonians 4. And it's the same return described by John in both Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:7-10.

Where does Acts 1:11 say that Jesus returns to? The moon? Mars? Pluto? No---it assumes He returns to the earth, the place from which He departed.

Sure.

Likewise, where does Matthew 25:31 say that Jesus returns to? The moon? Mars? Pluto? Again, why would the assumption not be that He returns to the earth?

Sure.

Wherever He returns, that is where He then sits upon the throne of His glory. Furthermore, the concept of returning implies that someone is coming back to a place where they were previously present, departed from, and then later came back to.

However, if Matthew 25:31 is interpreted as referring to a different location---such as a Great White Throne Judgment occurring somewhere other than earth---then how does Jesus return to that location if He never left that location in the first place?

In Acts 1:11, Jesus did not depart from some unknown location where a Great White Throne Judgment was taking place. He departed from the earth.

Therefore, if Matthew 25:31 is not the fulfillment of Acts 1:11, then what N T passage is, but is not meaning Matthew 25:31?

The explanation cannot simply be that Jesus comes to one location in that location's atmosphere, does not remain there long, never touches down, then travels somewhere else to conduct the Great White Throne Judgment, and afterward returns to the place where He originally arrived but did not stay because He went elsewhere. If that is considered sound exegesis, then I honestly do not know what standard of interpretation is being applied.

Sure. Log-winded, but sure. <smile>

So, in my view, these particular Amils are doing the very thing they often criticize other views---such as Pretrib for doing----having Jesus return, then leave, and then return again.

I mean if you mean inconsistency of any kind, yeah, it's very possible. There's plenty of that to be found, here. <smile>

To be clear, I am not defending the Pretrib position. I do not hold that view.

Okay. Thought you did.

However, that is beside the point because the issue here is consistency in interpretation.

Right.

How is it not essentially the same type of sequence if Jesus returns in Matthew 25:31 to the earth’s atmosphere, but does not actually descend to the earth? According to this interpretation, He appears in glory with His angels, executes judgment upon the lost below, and then departs to conduct the Great White Throne Judgment somewhere else. After that, He returns again to the earth---although, at that point, it would supposedly be the new earth.

Right... just as wacked. <smile> But again, I'm not sure I've ever heard an "amill" postulate that. But even if so, yeah... that's just wacked out, man. <smile>

The question is---how is that not also a 'return, departure, and return again' scenario---the very type of sequence that these same Amils criticize in Pretrib interpretations?

The objection is not whether one agrees with Pretrib or not. The issue is whether the interpretive framework being criticized is being applied consistently. If a view requires Christ to arrive, leave, and later arrive again, then the same concern should be considered regardless of which eschatological system is proposing that sequence.

<sigh> Okay, sure, I agree.

What these Amils in question need to provide is the Scripture or Scriptures that show Jesus returning to the earth after the GWTJ, after He had already returned earlier before the time of the GWTJ per Matthew 25:31. Where this scenario equals a return(Matthew 25:31), a departure(in order to go somewhere else other than the earth to put in session the GWTJ), and a return again to a presumably new earth(yet it's still the same earth at the same location, though). Exactly what they criticize Pretrib of doing.

I think the supposed ~ <smile> ~ sequence of Revelation 19 and 20 causes a lot of folks problems. They don't think so, of course, but if that's not the source of this particular inconsistency... across the millennial views ~ it's certainly one of the main ones.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because that's what the bible teaches.

Then you need to show that. Anyone can claim anything they want here, but if you want to be taken seriously, then you need to be able to back up your beliefs with scripture. So far, you have shown no ability to do that.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Then you need to show that. Anyone can claim anything they want here, but if you want to be taken seriously, then you need to be able to back up your beliefs with scripture. So far, you have shown no ability to do that.

Told you so, @CrowCross

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Even though you too are an Amil, where other Amils typically insist Jesus never sets foot on earth until after the GWTJ, you appear to be an Amil who is capable of reasoning coherently, unlike some other Amils whose interpretations do not always seem to follow a consistent line of reasoning. For example, some Amils argue that the entire planet will be engulfed in flames when Jesus returns. Therefore, they conclude that Jesus could not literally set foot on the earth at that time, even if He desired to, because the earth would already be in a destroyed and uninhabitable condition. According to that view, no living creatures would remain, because all life---including the entire animal kingdom---would have been burned up.

To be fair, although I was responding to you, it appears that not everything I was arguing necessarily applies to your specific view. Perhaps none of it does. I can accept that, because even among Amils there can be significant differences in how certain passages are interpreted. One Amil may understand a passage one way, while another Amil may interpret the same passage differently.

With that in mind, the following questions may not necessarily be for you to answer, but rather for those other Amils I have in mind to answer. And we all know who some of those people are, correct?

Consider Acts 1:11----Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Nowhere in this verse do the angels say that Jesus will return in like manner only after the Great White Throne Judgment. The verse simply states that the same Jesus who was taken up into heaven will come again in the same manner in which He was seen departing.

In light of Acts 1:11, what passages in the NT are intended to fulfill that prophecy?

What about Matthew 25:31?---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.

Why would this passage not be referring to the same return described in Acts 1:11? Where does Acts 1:11 say that Jesus returns to? The moon? Mars? Pluto? No---it assumes He returns to the earth, the place from which He departed.

Likewise, where does Matthew 25:31 say that Jesus returns to? The moon? Mars? Pluto? Again, why would the assumption not be that He returns to the earth?

Wherever He returns, that is where He then sits upon the throne of His glory. Furthermore, the concept of returning implies that someone is coming back to a place where they were previously present, departed from, and then later came back to.

However, if Matthew 25:31 is interpreted as referring to a different location---such as a Great White Throne Judgment occurring somewhere other than earth---then how does Jesus return to that location if He never left that location in the first place?

In Acts 1:11, Jesus did not depart from some unknown location where a Great White Throne Judgment was taking place. He departed from the earth.

Therefore, if Matthew 25:31 is not the fulfillment of Acts 1:11, then what N T passage is, but is not meaning Matthew 25:31?

The explanation cannot simply be that Jesus comes to one location in that location's atmosphere, does not remain there long, never touches down, then travels somewhere else to conduct the Great White Throne Judgment, and afterward returns to the place where He originally arrived but did not stay because He went elsewhere. If that is considered sound exegesis, then I honestly do not know what standard of interpretation is being applied.

Matthew 25:31-46 is the same as the Great White Throne Judgment. The following verses are very clearly referring to the same thing.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

You insist that what is described in Matthew 25:31-46 will take place on earth and yet...

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

Where do you have the GWTJ taking place? You act as if the Matthew 25:31-46 has to take place on earth. Why? Revelation 20:11-15 clearly shows that a judgment event does not have to take place on earth, so what is your reasoning for Matthew 25:31-46 having to take place on earth?

So, in my view, these particular Amils are doing the very thing they often criticize other views---such as Pretrib for doing----having Jesus return, then leave, and then return again.

Who is doing that? I'm not aware of any Amils who have Jesus returning to the earth, then leaving and then coming back again. This seems to be another one of your many strawman arguments.

To be clear, I am not defending the Pretrib position. I do not hold that view. However, that is beside the point because the issue here is consistency in interpretation.

How is it not essentially the same type of sequence if Jesus returns in Matthew 25:31 to the earth’s atmosphere, but does not actually descend to the earth? According to this interpretation, He appears in glory with His angels, executes judgment upon the lost below, and then departs to conduct the Great White Throne Judgment somewhere else. After that, He returns again to the earth---although, at that point, it would supposedly be the new earth.

So what? This scenario is 100% completely different from pretrib. To compare the two scenarios is utterly ludicrous.

The question is---how is that not also a 'return, departure, and return again' scenario---the very type of sequence that these same Amils criticize in Pretrib interpretations?

Are you really this naive? Amils don't have Jesus coming down from heaven only to return to heaven again years later like pretribs do. There is no comparison between how Amils see things and how Pretrib sees things. This is a joke.

The objection is not whether one agrees with Pretrib or not. The issue is whether the interpretive framework being criticized is being applied consistently. If a view requires Christ to arrive, leave, and later arrive again, then the same concern should be considered regardless of which eschatological system is proposing that sequence.

What these Amils in question need to provide is the Scripture or Scriptures that show Jesus returning to the earth after the GWTJ, after He had already returned earlier before the time of the GWTJ per Matthew 25:31. Where this scenario equals a return(Matthew 25:31), a departure(in order to go somewhere else other than the earth to put in session the GWTJ), and a return again to a presumably new earth(yet it's still the same earth at the same location, though). Exactly what they criticize Pretrib of doing.

You're always trying to create ridiculous scenarios to make Amil look bad and they only exist in your own mind. You should be embarrassed that you go to such desperate extremes to try to refute Amil instead of just sticking to what is taught in the scriptures instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You confuse that with the physical second coming...the fire destruction occurs after the 1000 year reign.

Please tell me exactly how you interpret the following passages and how you reconcile them with your beliefs.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What point? I can't provide you any Scriptures for a view I don't even hold nor a view not found in the Bible itself. I don't think the universe nor the planet will be literally engulfed in flames regardless when 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning. All I know is, there are many Premils who conclude that 2 Peter 3:10-12 occurs a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming, and that some of these Premils, so maybe not all these Premils, take 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the literal sense.

Though, I too am Premil, I do not agree with other Premils that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meaning when they take it to mean. It is absurd to apply it to that era of time. The very same DOTL meant in 1 Thess 5:3 is obviously the very same DOTL meant in 2 Peter 3:10-12. And not one single person past nor in the present would remotely apply 1 Thess 5:3 to a time period 1000 years post the 2nd coming.

How exactly do you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-12? You, unlike most Premils, acknowledge that it relates to the second coming of Christ. So, explain why it should not be taken literally and explain exactly how you do interpret it and please explain how you interpret 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 as well.

IOW, there are not numerous DOTL that come as a thief in the night at different times. There is only one DOTL that comes as a thief in the night, that being the one mentioned in both 1 Thess 5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. And since no one would apply 1 Thess 5:3 to that of a thousand years post the 2nd coming, one is to treat 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the same manner since they are obviously both the same DOTL that comes as a thief in the night only one time, not more than one time at different times.

What is your understanding of the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" when Jesus comes as a thief in the night? Do you see it as referring to physical destruction? If so, what will cause it?

In 2 Peter 3:10-12, the DOTL is not being compared to tribulation, it is being compared to judgment of the ungodly, it is being compared to Noah's flood. The NT teaches, tribulation first, judgment afterwards. 2 Peter 3:10-12 never focus' on tribulation. It focus' on judgment after tribulation had preceded it

Can you expand on what you mean here? What type of judgment are you talking about here?

 

[CrowCross]

Then you need to show that. Anyone can claim anything they want here, but if you want to be taken seriously, then you need to be able to back up your beliefs with scripture. So far, you have shown no ability to do that.

The biblical interpretation has been taken seriously for years. I didn't invent it.

 

[CrowCross]

Told you so, @CrowCross

To be honest I don't take you seriously...typically I scroll past your post. You seem a bit arrogant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The biblical interpretation has been taken seriously for years. I didn't invent it.

How do you know you have the correct interpretation? How can any of us know when you don't do anything to show exactly how you interpret things? Is it asking too much for you to do that? I'm not interested in your claims if you can't back them up with scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

How do you know you have the correct interpretation? How can any of us know when you don't do anything to show exactly how you interpret things? Is it asking too much for you to do that? I'm not interested in your claims if you can't back them up with scripture.

I have done a lot to show how and why I interpret things in this way or that way.

Most of the time I get a bunch of ignorant nay-sayers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have done a lot to show how and why I interpret things in this way or that way.

Where?

Most of the time I get a bunch of ignorant nay-sayers.

It's not ignorant to ask you to back up your claims with scripture. Where have you done that in this thread?

 

[CrowCross]

Where?


It's not ignorant to ask you to back up your claims with scripture. Where have you done that in this thread?

Been there...done that.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Please tell me exactly how you interpret the following passages and how you reconcile them with your beliefs.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

These are two different Day of the Lord Events. They are separated by 1000 literal years. The Day of the Lord is whenever God interrupts, or intervenes in the affairs of man. Multiple Day of the Lord Events in the OT, in the end times, there is the second coming, then 1000 years latter the Great White Throne Judgement.

In your examples, Paul is speaking to something that is coming as a surprise, a sudden destruction just prior to Christ's next visitation. The world will not be destroyed completely with fire at this time.

Peter's example is 1000 years after the second coming, another Day of the Lord at the end of time. After the Great White Throne Judgement, fire rains down and burns the lost, and everything else up. Then we get the new heavens and a new earth.

How do you know you have the correct interpretation?

I know I am correct because of the Prophetic Time Periods in Daniel and Revelation. This is why the Amils can't understand. And so they will never understand Biblical Eschatology. They seem to not want to face it. Or address it. They think all numbers in the Bible are symbolic. They can't understand Revelation, so just call it all symbolic. Skip it. It was just Nero. That's all over with. Show me where the Bible says Antichrist. Stick with the Gospels. I agree that you can have 1000 symbolic cattle on 1000 symbolic hills, but you can't have symbolic time.

You, as an Amil, can't understand eschatology, the Biblical end times, using the Gospels or the Pauline Epistles. The Biblical Narrative was still unfolding in those times. I'm not even sure Peter or Paul knew or understood details of Revelation yet. Or that there would be a final 1000 years, the last 1000 year day, at the end of the chronology. That's probably where the Pauline phase of the judgement process will occur. Did you not know the Saints will judge the world? Even judge the angels? The Saints don't go marching in until the 1000 years are here.

Daniel and Revelation are required materials. In Daniel and Revelation there are 18 Prophetic Periods of literal time. Some, like the 70 weeks of Daniel 9, are translated day for a year, but they still are literal time intervals, which can be proven completed in real time. Even Christ Himself referenced them in the Olivet. From the TIME that the abomination is set up, and the daily taken away, there will be 1290 days of time. Spoken of by the Prophet Daniel. Finding the 1290 days, lets us KNOW therefore and understand what the Abomination is. And that we are living in the days of it.

Even Christ confirmed, early in Mark that the TIME had been fulfilled, time completed, at the beginning of His ministry in 27AD. He was talking about the Daniel 9 time, the 7 and 62 heptads since 457BC, until Messiah the Prince.

18 Prophetic Time Periods from Daniel and Revelation:

1. Time, times and half a time (saints persecuted – Daniel 7:25)

2. 2,300 evenings and mornings (until temple restored – Daniel 8:14)

3. 70 weeks (determined upon the Jews, Messiah crucified – Daniel 9:24,25)

4. Time, times and half a time (when completed, power of the holy people – Daniel 12:7)

5. 1,290 days (from the end of the daily to the setting up of the abomination – Daniel 12:11)

6. 1,335 days (blessed is the one who waits for and reaches this day – Daniel 12:12)

7. Half hour of silence (at the opening of the 7th seal – Revelation 8:1)

8. 5 months (length of torture upon those not having the seal of God – Revelation 9:5)

9. Hour, day, month and year (event when war begins – Revelation 9:15)

10. 42 months (Gentiles trample holy city – Revelation 11:2)

11. 1,260 days (Two Witnesses empowered for this length of time – Revelation 11:3)

12. 3.5 days (bodies of Two Witnesses lie in the street – Revelation 11:11)

13. 1,260 days (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:6)

14. Time, times and half a time (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:14)

15. 42 months (persecution of saints – Revelation 13:5)

16. One hour (ten kings join with beast – Revelation 17:12)

17. One day, one hour (Babylon’s destruction begins – Revelation 18:8,19)

18. 1,000 years (Satan in the abyss – Revelation 20:2)

The only real variable are the examples which use the word hour, translated from the Greek "hora". Hora, based on context, can mean a part of a day, or any other designated time, even a season. Like Churchill and "this is our finest HOUR, not really a literal 60 minutes, but it still is real time. So the half hour can be 1/2 of a heptad, or 3.5 years, but it remains a real time.

Sorry if that sounded like a noisy gong, or a clanging bell.

Spoiler: Time in Bible Times

The word "hour" comes from the Greek word "hora." The "Horae" were the three mythological goddesses of the seasons— spring, summer and winter. This was before autumn was recognized as a season. Their names were Eunomia, Dike and Eirene, mean- ing Good Order, Justice and Peace, guardians of the orderly suc- cession of the processes of nature.

"Hora" therefore meant "season" in a very general sense, almost synonymous with "a time." It was simply a measurable lapse of time with a beginning and an end, but with no uniform length of duration. That ancient Greek meaning of the word persisted into New Testament times even after "hora" came to be used also to mean a division of the day. Consequently, when the translators came across the word "hora," they found it very difficult to deter- mine what English word to use.

Several times they translated "hora" as "day" ; several other times they rendered it "season," and they were correct in so doing. But in some verses where "hora" should have been translated "moment" or "instant," they rendered it "hour."

Even in the many places in the New Testament where the word "hora" is used to indicate a period of time somewhat corresponding to our modern hour, it should be understood by the Bible reader that the New Testament hour varied greatly in length.

There were astronomers then, to be sure, who had carefully worked out the exact length of the day from their observation of the stars and the equinoxes, and had divided the day into 24 equal parts or hours, like the ones we use today. These they measured by a clever mechanical device which they called the clepsydra, literally the water-stealer, a primitive forerunner of the clock.

But the common people of New Testament times, in their homes and in business, knew nothing of the day of 24 equal hours. To them the day was the period between sunrise and sunset, and that was divided into 12 equal parts called hours. Of course, the hours were therefore much longer in summer than in winter. In mid- winter their hour was equal to only three-fourths of one of our hours and in midsummer was as long as our hour and a quarter. But in their leisurely method of living, they did not worry about such small matters.

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/scan/manifest/1941JRASC..35..163P

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These are two different Day of the Lord Events. They are separated by 1000 literal years.

That's total nonsense. I'm not going to waste any time reading any further. There is only one future day of the Lord and it is referenced in passages like 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.