Can You Be Righteous

[Axehead]

The saved have already been judged, condemned, crucified and raised in Christ and are awaiting "the redemption of our body". Only the finally unsaved will be judged according to their works,, as in the second resurrection (Rev 20:12, 13) which will be all who were not in the first resurrection (rev 20:5, 6).

Concerning "the judgement seat of Christ (Rom 14:10; 2 Cor 5:10) for the saved, it will be, not an issue of condemnation, but of rewards. Their is no condemnation awaiting the believer.

Who are the saved?

 

[Netchaplain]

A believer can be cut off and cast into outer darkness. This is the fate of those who are saved as by fire.

I'm not sure what is meant by the above, but 1 Cor 3 does not address the issue of salvation. I believe it refers to the rewards in eternity which will be the result from our witness ("every man's work"; "any man's work"). If our doctrine was not scriptural ("wood, hey, stubble") it will not produce a reward (v 15). But if it was scriptural (gold, silver, precious stones) their will be a reward (v 14).

It's in reference to the promulgation of the Gospel (v 5-10); in which “the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is” (v 13).

Who are the saved?

The “good and faithful”, who will “enter into the joy of thy Lord”. The elect, who will come to Christ.

"That depends on what they believe . . . Every one will be Judged."

The believer in Christ will "have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world" (1 John 4:17)
.

 

[us2are1]

That depends on what they believe. If they are believing the lies of man dreamed up to fleece gods sheep for unrighteous mammon. God will not hold those who perpetrate it or who believe it harmless. Remember Eve believed the lies in the garden instead of God. Everyone has gone astray and believed the lies of the devil. That is why these prophecy scriptures exist. Every one will be Judged.

36 "For the Lord will judge His people And have compassion on His servants, When He sees that their power is gone, And there is no one remaining, bond or free.
37 He will say: 'Where are their gods, The rock in which they sought refuge?
38 Who ate the fat of their sacrifices, And drank the wine of their drink offering? Let them rise and help you, And be your refuge.
39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

30 "Therefore prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: 'The Lord will roar from on high, And utter His voice from His holy habitation; He will roar mightily against His fold. He will give a shout, as those who tread the grapes, Against all the inhabitants of the earth.

You forgot the full quote. I hope you have not done that with the doctrine of Christ.

 

[Netchaplain]

Son of Man, I agree with you that, "If they are believing the lies of man dreamed up to fleece gods sheep for unrighteous mammon. God will not hold those who perpetrate it or who believe it harmless."

Those who believe lies are those who aren't believers in Christ anyway is my point.



.

 

[us2are1]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Son of Man, I agree with you that, "If they are believing the lies of man dreamed up to fleece gods sheep for unrighteous mammon. God will not hold those who perpetrate it or who believe it harmless."[/background]

[background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Those who believe lies are those who aren't believers in Christ anyway is my point.[/background]

Amen NetChaplain

 

[Episkopos]

]

I'm not sure what is meant by the above, but 1 Cor 3 does not address the issue of salvation. I believe it refers to the rewards in eternity which will be the result from our witness ("every man's work"; "any man's work"). If our doctrine was not scriptural ("wood, hey, stubble") it will not produce a reward (v 15). But if it was scriptural (gold, silver, precious stones) their will be a reward (v 14).

It's in reference to the promulgation of the Gospel (v 5-10); in which “the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is” (v 13).

It is not..."it will not produce a reward" It is...they will be cut off (suffer grievous loss)

 

[Netchaplain]

Episkopos, I fail to see a reference in 1Co 3 that the one who "suffers loss" will be cut off. The text clearly explains he's still saved, unless I'm not understanding your intended meaning of "cut off".

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos, I fail to see a reference in 1Co 3 that the one who "suffers loss" will be cut off. The text clearly explains he's still saved, unless I'm not understanding your intended meaning of "cut off".

Saved means not dead. There are vessels of both honour and dishonour in the next age. If you read the text without prejudice you will see what the meaning is!

Luk_19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

 

[Axehead]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The Law as given to Moses became the instrument by which the people entered into covenant, and God’s authority was established over them. God’s authority establishes His righteousness. The principle of authority is as important for man today as it was for Moses and Israel. God has not changed, neither has man. The formation of righteousness comes under authority. This is the second principle of righteousness. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The Law was a revelation of God’s righteousness...[/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]So, let's look at God's righteousness and character as revealed in the 10 commandments.[/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]You will see later how pertinent this is to how you can be righteous, when we get to Jesus. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]First commandment,[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] "I am the Lord thy God....thou shalt have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:2,3). A moral society is built upon one Supreme Authority; otherwise, man becomes his own authority, and everything becomes relative and changing. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The lawless live by the rule, "Man is the measure of all things."[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] Within himself, man's perspective is so limited that he loses sight of the righteousness of God. [/background]

God's righteousness begins with Himself.

He is righteous[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)], and [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]those who accept His authority are formed by His righteousness. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Second commandment, "Thou shalt not make...graven images" (v.4-5). Literally it says one must not make images to worship, but looking from the positive side, God is saying one should worship Him only. When authority is accepted, the spirit of gratefulness will bring forth worship. The element that is missing with the lawless is gratefulness. The lawless live by the rule, "I am the center of my world." Many parents wonder why their children show no appreciation for all the years given to them; the truth is, indulgence does not create gratefulness. [/background]
Indulgence in the Christian life will not create gratefulness.

Gratefulness as well as the spirit of worship are formed under authority.

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Third commandment,[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain" (v.7) The importance of reverence and the fear of God is focused in His Name. Authority establishes reverence. Honor, respect and godly fear are a part of this. Here is where wisdom and understanding begins, for "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding" (Proverbs 9:10). In lawlessness there is no fear of the Lord. Wisdom and understanding are lost. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The lawless live by the rule, "Eat, drink and be merry. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Authority establishes reverence. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Fourth commandment, [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Keep the Sabbath holy" (v.8) There was a day to be kept apart unto the Lord. Here is order that separates the holy from the profane, the clean from the unclean; an order that brings one into rest. To know His holiness man must separate himself to God, laying aside his interests, pleasures and ambitions. He must stop and consider the ways of God. Man will not come to know God's holiness if he does not accept His authority. [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The lawless man lives by the rule, "All things exist for my pleasure.[/background]"

God is not the Author of confusion and His order brings rest. This order and authority is found in His Son.
Acts 17:28 For in Him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Fifth commandment, [/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Honor your father and mother" (v.12). Under authority the attitude of the righteous is formed; in disobedience the attitude of the lawless is formed. Righteousness formed in children through obedience is the formation of character. Character is formed under authority through discipline, correction, instruction, responsibility and accountability. But the lawless live by the rule, "Freedom of expression releases the full potential of the child. Do not withhold or limit them, keep them happy and entertained, just love them and every worthwhile virtue will come forth." What comes forth is a generation of self-willed, indulgent, and ungrateful children that do not have the fear of God. This philosophy has seeped into the church and the banks are overflowing. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Under authority character is formed. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]In these first five commandments, one can see in the Law, the righteousness of God revealed. God has not changed and neither has His standard changed. What does God require? [/background]God will not accept a lawless people.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]His covenant is formed with those who come under His authority and obey His word; they walk in covenant with God. On the contrary, the lawless indulge their flesh and walk after their own pleasures. They walk the way of rebellion. [/background]

The Law[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]was[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] not only a revelation of God's righteousness, but also [/background]the instrument to bind the people to Him in covenant.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] One cannot say that He loves God and not keep His commandments. God's people must not be a lawless people. [/background]

This is enough to contemplate for now. Next 5 commandments and how God's righteousness is displayed in them, later.

Axehead

 

[winc]

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NIV)
[sup]21 [/sup]God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

yes - there is no need for long and lenghty explanations and ramblings - the simple answer is take your name and photograph out of your passport to heaven and insert Jesus - when you stand at the pearly gate and asked for the password do not say "open sesame" but say "open sesajesus" - winc

 

[Stan]

We, cannot be righteous. Romans 3:10; “There is no one righteous, not even one"
Then in verse 20, Paul states; Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Then in verses 20-21 he says; [sup] [/sup]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.[sup] [/sup]This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Righteousness is having Christ in your life. He is our righteousness. Nothing we do makes us righteous.

 

[Axehead]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Ok, let’s finish the 10 commandments so we can understand the Righteousness of God revealed in them. [/background]

Sixth commandment,[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] "Thou shalt not kill…" (Exodus 20:13). Authority was given to protect life. The initial purpose of human government was to bring judgment upon the murderer. “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed” (Genesis 9:6). Righteousness protects life. On the other hand with the lawless there is violence, and human life becomes dispensable. [/background]The lawless live by the rule, "Do away with anything or anyone that affects MY happiness. "

Seventh commandment,[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] "Thou shalt not commit adultery…" (v.14). God’s authority limits the sexual activity of man to one woman, and this must be kept sacred in a covenant relationship. There is righteousness in covenant relationships. Sexual immorality not only fragments the person but also destroys the very foundation of society. [/background]The lawless are covenant breakers. They live by the rule, “Personal happiness is more important than covenant relationships.”

Eighth commandment,[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Thou shalt not steal…" (v.15) Under authority come discipline and a work ethic. [/background]There is righteousness in work. [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Without a work ethic, socialism and welfare destroy the human initiative as well as human worth. [/background]The lawless live by the rule, "What’s yours is mine and I can take it.”

Ninth commandment, [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]" (v.16). Righteousness is established through personal integrity. [/background]Truth within becomes the foundation for righteousness.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] When truth is lost, righteousness is lost. Men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness come under the wrath of God. [/background]The lawless man lives by the rule, "The end justifies the means."

Tenth commandment, [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Thou shalt not covet…[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]" (v.17). Authority restrains covetousness. Peace and contentment are the products of righteousness.Where there is no restraint covetousness will destroy a nation through greed and materialism.[/background]The lawless live by the rule, "Life consists in what a man possesses.” [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever (Isa 32:17). [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]One can see in the law, the righteousness of God revealed. God has not changed and His standard has not changed. He does not accept a lawless people and His covenant is formed with those who come under His authority and obey His Word. Those who do so are formed by His righteousness. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Now that we are finished with the 10 commandments, let’s take a look at the 10 commandments of the Lawless. We ask the question, “Can You Be Righteous”, but we can also ask the question, “Can You Be Lawless (or Unrighteous)?” [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The Ten Commandments of the Lawless[/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]1. Man is the measure of all things.
2. Man is the center of his world.
3. Man should eat, drink and be merry.
4. All things exist for man’s pleasure
5. Freedom of expression releases the full potential of every man.
6. Do away with anything or anyone that affects your happiness
7. Personal happiness is more important than covenant relationships.”
8. What’s belongs to others, belongs to you and you can take it.
9. The end justifies the means.
10. Life consists in what a man possesses.[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]

We need to realize that righteousness, esp. ours, does not save us. Christ saves and therefore is the cause of our salvation; righteousness it is an effect of salvation!

This is not posted in an attempt to address any individual, so to take it as a contention or an offense would be a mistake.

For Truth's Sake

NetChap, the righteousness we are talking about IS NOT OURS, it is Christ's. Read Episkopos' post #5.

We, cannot be righteous. Romans 3:10; “There is no one righteous, not even one"
Then in verse 20, Paul states; Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Then in verses 20-21 he says; [sup] [/sup]But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.[sup] [/sup]This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Righteousness is having Christ in your life. He is our righteousness. Nothing we do makes us righteous.

Stan, did you read post #8, 9, 36, 39, 51 just to name a few.

 

[Stan]

Stan, did you read post #8, 9, 36, 39, 51 just to name a few.

Nope, I answered the OP. Not sured what all the commandments are about, we aren't under the written law. Didn't Romans 3:20 make that clear to you?
What do you think Jesus was talking about in John 16:1-15? Maybe you can take a close look at verses 8-10 where Jesus talks about righteousness and how the Holy Spirit was to prove how WRONG the world was about the so-called righteousness they thought they could obtain under the Mosaic Law. Just as Abraham's faith in God's promise, Jesus, was credited to him AS righteousness, our faith and trust in Jesus is credited to us AS righteousness, but ONLY He is righteous. We are but an instrument of God's righteousness, as we are told in Romans 6:13; Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.

 

[jiggyfly]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Ok, let’s finish the 10 commandments so we can understand the Righteousness of God revealed in them. [/background]

Sixth commandment,[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] "Thou shalt not kill…" (Exodus 20:13). Authority was given to protect life. The initial purpose of human government was to bring judgment upon the murderer. “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed” (Genesis 9:6). Righteousness protects life. On the other hand with the lawless there is violence, and human life becomes dispensable. [/background]The lawless live by the rule, "Do away with anything or anyone that affects MY happiness. "

Seventh commandment,[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] "Thou shalt not commit adultery…" (v.14). God’s authority limits the sexual activity of man to one woman, and this must be kept sacred in a covenant relationship. There is righteousness in covenant relationships. Sexual immorality not only fragments the person but also destroys the very foundation of society. [/background]The lawless are covenant breakers. They live by the rule, “Personal happiness is more important than covenant relationships.”

Eighth commandment,[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"Thou shalt not steal…" (v.15) Under authority come discipline and a work ethic. [/background]There is righteousness in work. [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Without a work ethic, socialism and welfare destroy the human initiative as well as human worth. [/background]The lawless live by the rule, "What’s yours is mine and I can take it.”

Ninth commandment, [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]" (v.16). Righteousness is established through personal integrity. [/background]Truth within becomes the foundation for righteousness.[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] When truth is lost, righteousness is lost. Men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness come under the wrath of God. [/background]The lawless man lives by the rule, "The end justifies the means."

Tenth commandment, [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]"[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Thou shalt not covet…[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]" (v.17). Authority restrains covetousness. Peace and contentment are the products of righteousness.Where there is no restraint covetousness will destroy a nation through greed and materialism.[/background]The lawless live by the rule, "Life consists in what a man possesses.” [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever (Isa 32:17). [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]One can see in the law, the righteousness of God revealed. God has not changed and His standard has not changed. He does not accept a lawless people and His covenant is formed with those who come under His authority and obey His Word. Those who do so are formed by His righteousness. [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]Now that we are finished with the 10 commandments, let’s take a look at the 10 commandments of the Lawless. We ask the question, “Can You Be Righteous”, but we can also ask the question, “Can You Be Lawless (or Unrighteous)?” [/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]The Ten Commandments of the Lawless[/background]

[background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]1. Man is the measure of all things.
2. Man is the center of his world.
3. Man should eat, drink and be merry.
4. All things exist for man’s pleasure
5. Freedom of expression releases the full potential of every man.
6. Do away with anything or anyone that affects your happiness
7. Personal happiness is more important than covenant relationships.”
8. What’s belongs to others, belongs to you and you can take it.
9. The end justifies the means.
10. Life consists in what a man possesses.[/background][background=rgb(250, 250, 250)] [/background]

Paul said the law (the ten commandments) leads to death, but HolySpirit leads to life. Its really simple and anyone saying otherwise is either ignorant or confused about this truth or intentionally trying to complicate things.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul said the law (the ten commandments) leads to death, but HolySpirit leads to life. Its really simple and anyone saying otherwise is either ignorant or confused about this truth or intentionally trying to complicate things.

Let's be clear about this...the law itself does not lead to death...only putting our trust in our own ability to follow the law leads to death.

Pro_7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Hos_4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

 

[Axehead]

Let's be clear about this...the law itself does not lead to death...only putting our trust in our own ability to follow the law leads to death.

Pro_7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

Hos_4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

That is correct, Episkopos. Thank you for mentioning that. And just to be clear. I posted the 10 commandments so that we could see God's righteousness and holiness revealed in them. With the Holy Spirit we fulfill the law by Loving God and our neighbor (not defrauding our neighbor in any way, but loving them as God loves them).

I don't know how people are misunderstanding the posts about the 10 commandments. We are looking at the righteousness of God revealed in the 10 commandments. It seems that whenever Christians see the 10 commandments, that their "knee-jerk" reaction is to think that someone is putting them under the law. If this is what you think then you missed to whole point of my posts on the 10 commandments. We are not talking about fulfilling the law in your own strength, but through the Life which is supposed to be in you (Jesus Christ's life).

I will give a brief synopsis and summary so far about what we are talking about for those that are not following the discussion and only relying on the OP.

"How God works His righteousness into our lives and purifies our hearts the motives of our heart, by His Son, Jesus Christ."

Axehead

 

[neophyte]

The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just 'desiring' to be righteous, but is actively "working 'toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.

James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." In verse 24 James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (2:26).

The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1).

The Council fathers continued by saying, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).

By the way, "let him be anathema" means "let him be excommunicated," not "let him be cursed to hell." The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word "anathema" is found in Scripture.
.
So, far from teaching a doctrine of "works righteousness" (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418),
The Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.

 

[Stan]

According to what I read in God's Word, the Law ONLY leads to death.

1. Romans 7:5
   For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our bodies to bear fruit for death.
   
2. Romans 8:2
   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
   
3. 1 Corinthians 15:56
   The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
4. Romans 6:23
   For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul clearly states in Romans that Abraham was not saved because He obeyed God's written laws. He was saved because he had faith in God's promise of the Messiah and that faith was credited to him AS righteousness. The written Law is obsolete, dead and buried.

 

[Netchaplain]

Saved means not dead. There are vessels of both honour and dishonour in the next age. If you read the text without prejudice you will see what the meaning is!

Luk_19:26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

The above passage refers to the saved and the unsaved. 1 Cor 3 is in reference only to the saved. "He shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved." Same as the honorable and dishonorable vessels; save and unsaved.

 

[Episkopos]

The above passage refers to the saved and the unsaved. 1 Cor 3 is in reference only to the saved. "He shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved." Same as the honorable and dishonorable vessels; save and unsaved.

Taken away means loss....

A dishonourable vessel is alive to show the dishonour. This saved/unsaved is too simplistic. In a great house there are both vessels of honour AND dishonour. Heaven and hell are not in the same house.