Can You Be Righteous

[Stan]

Ezekiel 18:20 "[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Hebrews 12:14 "[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord."[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Psalm 34:14 "[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Turn from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it."[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Romans 6:22 "[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life."[/background]

[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Revelation 22:14-15 "[/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. [/background][background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."[/background]
[background=rgb(249, 253, 255)]The word stands for itself!![/background]

Is it your intention to just quote scripture without ANY context and to ignore questions posed to?

 

[IanLC]

When you accept Jesus you accept His sacrifice for sin and thus His righteousness is produced in you. God's command is for His people to be holy and live holy as He is holy!

 

[us2are1]

Doctrines of demons alter, change, twist or completely replace the Word of God. The first doctrine of demons was in the Garden. "Hath God said?" And Satan proceeded to tell Eve what God "really" meant.

The following are examples of verses that have been twisted, changed, rationalized, dispensationalized, etc, etc. Satan has a particular hatred for any Words from the Lord that have to do with cleansing our hearts, purifying our consiences, conforming us to the image of Christ, or making us zealous for good works (authored by the Holy Spirit not the flesh). In short, Satan does not want us to partake of His holiness and righteousness and actually WALK IN HIM (in the Spirit) and overcome him (Satan) and overcome the lure of sin. He wants us to buy into the lie that Jesus really did not break the power of cancelled sin in our lives and that we have to just "grit our teeth", "keep a stiff upper lip" while the rough end drags. This is not the overcoming life that Jesus Christ has won for us. His life in us IS THE OVERCOMING LIFE.


Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.


Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

2Co_7:1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Eph_5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Jas_4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Axehead

Absolutely Axehead

One of those doctrines and twistings is their imaginary righteousness by speaking some words into the air and maybe putting money in the collection plate. Following Christ and His teachings is the farthest thing from their minds.
They toss out the scriptures like these and pay no attention to them lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and repent so that the Lord can save them.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

 

[Stan]

When you accept Jesus you accept His sacrifice for sin and thus His righteousness is produced in you. God's command is for His people to be holy and live holy as He is holy!

He is in you and He is righteous. Nothing is 'produced' in us. Why is it I have to keep reminding everyone of Romans 3:10?

Absolutely Axehead

One of those doctrines and twistings is their imaginary righteousness by speaking some words into the air and maybe putting money in the collection plate. Following Christ and His teachings is the farthest thing from their minds.
They toss out the scriptures like these and pay no attention to them lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and repent so that the Lord can save them.

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
24 because "All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, And its flower falls away,
25 But the word of the Lord endures forever." Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.

Again I ask, HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO THE OP?

 

[Axehead]

Alright, well praise the Lord! There are some really good posts here. I thought the scripture that jiggyfly gave about "this treasure in earthen vessels" was great. It is amazing when you think about the fact that we are vessels and we either contain treasure (Jesus Christ) or fools gold (abhorrence/abomination). There is not a third choice. Since the creation of man there has always been two choices for man. The Tree of Life or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Life or Death, Good or Evil, Blessings or Cursings, Jesus Christ or Satan. Since we were created as contingent and derivative creatures we derive our character from a spiritual source outside of ourselves, either Jesus Christ or Satan. New Age religionists would tell you that man can look within themselves and find goodness within. But without Jesus Christ one only finds a deception within. If the "prince of the power of the air (Satan) is the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, then one is only looking at how Satan can convince our minds and dress up our "flesh nature" to look quite wonderful and Satan hides himself so that people would be aghast at the mention that Satan is working within them. That would be quite rude also, to go around telling people that. But it is the reality that the word of God teaches. There are one of two spirits working in men to bring forth their very own fruit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit or the fruit of the Unholy Spirit (works of the flesh - Gal 5).

We were created to look to someone else for our spiritual source and identity. Of course, most people would take umbrage at the suggestion that the spirit of this world is working within them. Hence, we have this "treasure" in earthen vessels or "abhorrence/abomination" in earthen vessels. One or the other. We are, in the simplest of terms, a CONTAINER for the Holy Spirit or the spirit of the World.

Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

And what is the "spirit of the world" but everything that opposes Jesus Christ in the world weaved into all the systems of men. It is the character and personage of Satan within all the systems of men. Education, Political, Religious, and Commerce systems to name a few.

Just to recap so far:

1. Righteousness is the basic quality of God's character and His character is to be formed in man.
Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright

2. The formation of His righteousness does not come instantaneously.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

3. Those who seek His kingdom must seek His righteousness.

4. Righteousness is found in the creation of the world. God brought the world forth on a principle that established righteousness in everything He made. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

5. God brought forth everything on the principle of separation establishing and order in creation that preserverd everything that He made.

6. There is order in righteousness that maintains life.

7. Mixture is contrary to righteousness. In all of creation, mixture was not found except in a tree called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

8. Evil comes through mixture. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is the place of man's fall.

9. Evil comes through mixture. This is the first principle of evil. It is the nature of evil to break down order and cause disintegration. All kinds of disorder come until all the life support systems of one's life are destroyed.

10. It is the mixture of good and evil that destroys righteousness. How many of God's people are feeding on mixture?

11. Through mixture, one loses the discernment of evil. In looking upon evil, one comes to accept evil to experience evil and one loses the discernment of evil and when discernment of evil is lost, evil has overcome.

12. Not following the first principle of righteousness (separation) allows evil to enter.

13. The second principle of righteousness is found in the formation of a nation.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

14. The formation of righteousness comes under authority. (2nd principle of righteousness)

15. Lawlessness is contrary to righteousness. (2nd principle of evil)

The Law was not only a revelation of God's righteousness, but also an instrument to bind the people to Him in covenant. One cannot say he loves God and not keep His commandments. God's people must not be a lawless people.

Lest we despise the Law, Jesus said:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:17-19)

16. Righteousness is not confined to law and authority, it also becomes the basis of relationship. In relationship to God, righteousness brought forth reconciliation.

17. The 3rd principle of righteousness is found in reconciliation operating through grace and truth.

18. Grace does not work apart from truth.

19. Forgiveness is the key to maintaining the spirit of reconciliation. By forgiving we permit God's grace to flow into us; by releasing others, one releases himself.

20. Grace follows the Law. There would be no place for grace if the Law had not first established God's righteousness.

Each revelation of righteousness incorporates the preceding one. The principle of separation found in creation was incorporated by the Law to make a people for God. The principles of separation and authority are incorporated in Christ to bring forth disciples. The new does not do away with the righteousness of the old, rather it adds to it a new dimensions of God's righteousness.

The Purpose of Grace

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Next, I would like to talk about the Baptism of Fire. I appreciate all of your comments.

Axehead

 

[us2are1]

Again I ask, HOW DOES THIS RELATE TO THE OP?

Why can't you hear what is being said? Do you Know what the OP is about?

You are righteous by following Christ and doing what He said.

You can be righteous by doing it not by talking about it or speaking a incantation cleverly devised to fill collection plates.





.

 

[Stan]

Why can't you hear what is being said? Do you Know what the OP is about?

You are righteous by following Christ and doing what He said.

You can be righteous by doing it not by talking about it or speaking a incantation cleverly devised to fill collection plates.

Do you always answer a question with a question?

You are still not getting it. You can never BE righteous. You can have Jesus' righteousness in you when you accept Him as your Saviour. As we grow in our walk and give more and more place to Jesus, His righteousness becomes more apparent, but it is NEVER ours. Again Romans 3:10 makes this abundantly clear, or at least should do so. Some just don't seem to get it.
You seem to be hung up on what men do, instead of looking to what God does and accomplishes. Phil 4:13; I can do all this through Him who gives me strength. We do it all through Christ, He is our righteousness. In ourselves we have none, even when we have Christ's righteousness, it is NOT ours.

Alright, well praise the Lord! There are some really good posts here. I thought the scripture that jiggyfly gave about "this treasure in earthen vessels" was great. It is amazing when you think about the fact that we are vessels and we either contain treasure (Jesus Christ) or fools gold (abhorrence/abomination). There is not a third choice. Since the creation of man there has always been two choices for man. The Tree of Life or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, Life or Death, Good or Evil, Blessings or Cursings, Jesus Christ or Satan. Since we were created as contingent and derivative creatures we derive our character from a spiritual source outside of ourselves, either Jesus Christ or Satan. New Age religionists would tell you that man can look within themselves and find goodness within. But without Jesus Christ one only finds a deception within. If the "prince of the power of the air (Satan) is the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, then one is only looking at how Satan can convince our minds and dress up our "flesh nature" to look quite wonderful and Satan hides himself so that people would be aghast at the mention that Satan is working within them. That would be quite rude also, to go around telling people that. But it is the reality that the word of God teaches. There are one of two spirits working in men to bring forth their very own fruit. The fruit of the Holy Spirit or the fruit of the Unholy Spirit (works of the flesh - Gal 5).

We were created to look to someone else for our spiritual source and identity. Of course, most people would take umbrage at the suggestion that the spirit of this world is working within them. Hence, we have this "treasure" in earthen vessels or "abhorrence/abomination" in earthen vessels. One or the other. We are, in the simplest of terms, a CONTAINER for the Holy Spirit or the spirit of the World.

Eph_2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

And what is the "spirit of the world" but everything that opposes Jesus Christ in the world weaved into all the systems of men. It is the character and personage of Satan within all the systems of men. Education, Political, Religious, and Commerce systems to name a few.

Just to recap so far:

1. Righteousness is the basic quality of God's character and His character is to be formed in man.
Psa 11:7 For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright

2. The formation of His righteousness does not come instantaneously.
Mat 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

3. Those who seek His kingdom must seek His righteousness.

4. Righteousness is found in the creation of the world. God brought the world forth on a principle that established righteousness in everything He made. Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

5. God brought forth everything on the principle of separation establishing and order in creation that preserverd everything that He made.

6. There is order in righteousness that maintains life.

7. Mixture is contrary to righteousness. In all of creation, mixture was not found except in a tree called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

8. Evil comes through mixture. The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil is the place of man's fall.

9. Evil comes through mixture. This is the first principle of evil. It is the nature of evil to break down order and cause disintegration. All kinds of disorder come until all the life support systems of one's life are destroyed.

10. It is the mixture of good and evil that destroys righteousness. How many of God's people are feeding on mixture?

11. Through mixture, one loses the discernment of evil. In looking upon evil, one comes to accept evil to experience evil and one loses the discernment of evil and when discernment of evil is lost, evil has overcome.

12. Not following the first principle of righteousness (separation) allows evil to enter.

13. The second principle of righteousness is found in the formation of a nation.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

14. The formation of righteousness comes under authority. (2nd principle of righteousness)

15. Lawlessness is contrary to righteousness. (2nd principle of evil)

The Law was not only a revelation of God's righteousness, but also an instrument to bind the people to Him in covenant. One cannot say he loves God and not keep His commandments. God's people must not be a lawless people.

Lest we despise the Law, Jesus said:

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:17-19)

16. Righteousness is not confined to law and authority, it also becomes the basis of relationship. In relationship to God, righteousness brought forth reconciliation.

17. The 3rd principle of righteousness is found in reconciliation operating through grace and truth.

18. Grace does not work apart from truth.

19. Forgiveness is the key to maintaining the spirit of reconciliation. By forgiving we permit God's grace to flow into us; by releasing others, one releases himself.

20. Grace follows the Law. There would be no place for grace if the Law had not first established God's righteousness.

Each revelation of righteousness incorporates the preceding one. The principle of separation found in creation was incorporated by the Law to make a people for God. The principles of separation and authority are incorporated in Christ to bring forth disciples. The new does not do away with the righteousness of the old, rather it adds to it a new dimensions of God's righteousness.

The Purpose of Grace

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Next, I would like to talk about the Baptism of Fire. I appreciate all of your comments.

Axehead

Well Axehead, a little onerous but OK. A 180 from your OP, but it looks like you get it now. Thanks.

 

[Axehead]

Do you always answer a question with a question?

You are still not getting it. You can never BE righteous. You can have Jesus' righteousness in you when you accept Him as your Saviour. As we grow in our walk and give more and more place to Jesus, His righteousness becomes more apparent, but it is NEVER ours. Again Romans 3:10 makes this abundantly clear, or at least should do so. Some just don't seem to get it.
You seem to be hung up on what men do, instead of looking to what God does and accomplishes. Phil 4:13; I can do all this through Him who gives me strength. We do it all through Christ, He is our righteousness. In ourselves we have none, even when we have Christ's righteousness, it is NOT ours.



Well Axehead, a little onerous but OK. A 180 from your OP, but it looks like you get it now. Thanks.

Hi Stan,

Thanks for trying to understand what I am talking about. What you agreed to is simply a summation of what I have already talked about.

"We must decrease and He must increase". This is speaking of the Lord increasing in us and through us. It is no longer we who live but Christ lives in us and as we yield to Him and allow Him to shine the light of His truth (Heb 4:12) into every area of our heart then He will purge out that which is not of Him, purifying our heart (motives) and changing us into His likeness more and more. By showing us how to live by His life within us and walk in the Spirit, He absolutely intends to change us into His likeness, but He won't do it without our cooperation.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

This verse speaks of forsaking unrighteousness and becoming righteous in our hearts (purify your hearts). This too is a work of the Holy Spirit that we must agree to.

Peter also testifying of this says:
1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Do you agree with Peter that we purify our souls by obeying the truth (and this is done through walking in the Spirit and not in our own strength)?

Stan, do you believe the Holy Spirit can purify your heart? Have you experienced this work of the Holy Spirit?
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The Lord sanctifies us through His truth.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jesus said that if we abide in Him we will bring forth much fruit. What is this fruit, but the likeness and image of Jesus Christ (His life, His character in and through us).

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

This is not a one time event. These are ongoing relational events with the Lord. As we continue to receive His Word into our hearts we will continue to be cleansed. You can see from the next verses that this is a continual relationship with Him in order to bear fruit. Abiding in Jesus Christ is not a one time event.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, (no righteousness of our own) except it abide in the vine (His righteousness); no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit (the manifestation of Christ in our lives becomes greater and greater): for without me ye can do nothing.

We can be righteous means that if we allow Him and if we come into agreement with the work that the Holy Spirit wants to do in us, conforming us to the image of Christ, we can realize more and more, experientially, the reality of being delivered from the power of sin and Satan and being conformed to the Lord Jesus.

It is not anything that we can produce on our own. Experiencing the overcoming life of Jesus Christ and walking in that power and grace only comes as we abide in Him. This is the fruit that God is looking for. He is looking for the character of His Son in us, not just a mental belief. He is looking for real faith and real faith trusts in His Son and this trust is demonstrated by our obedience to abide in Jesus Christ.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Stan,

I'm thinking about your contention that you will never be righteous because of 'there is none righteous, no, not one'.

When Paul quoted that in Romans 3, he was about to show how that statement would no longer apply, because now God's righteousness through faith in Christ could become ours. What you are maintaining, is a bit like this:

'There was a time when I was desperately hungry, but now, food has been imputed to me, (and although I haven't actually eaten it, because it will never actually be mine to eat), I am to consider myself no longer hungry.'


What?


Matthew 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

 

[Stan]

Hi Stan,

Thanks for trying to understand what I am talking about. What you agreed to is simply a summation of what I have already talked about.

"We must decrease and He must increase". This is speaking of the Lord increasing in us and through us. It is no longer we who live but Christ lives in us and as we yield to Him and allow Him to shine the light of His truth (Heb 4:12) into every area of our heart then He will purge out that which is not of Him, purifying our heart (motives) and changing us into His likeness more and more. By showing us how to live by His life within us and walk in the Spirit, He absolutely intends to change us into His likeness, but He won't do it without our cooperation.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

This verse speaks of forsaking unrighteousness and becoming righteous in our hearts (purify your hearts). This too is a work of the Holy Spirit that we must agree to.

Peter also testifying of this says:
1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
Do you agree with Peter that we purify our souls by obeying the truth (and this is done through walking in the Spirit and not in our own strength)?

Stan, do you believe the Holy Spirit can purify your heart? Have you experienced this work of the Holy Spirit?
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

The Lord sanctifies us through His truth.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Jesus said that if we abide in Him we will bring forth much fruit. What is this fruit, but the likeness and image of Jesus Christ (His life, His character in and through us).

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

This is not a one time event. These are ongoing relational events with the Lord. As we continue to receive His Word into our hearts we will continue to be cleansed. You can see from the next verses that this is a continual relationship with Him in order to bear fruit. Abiding in Jesus Christ is not a one time event.

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, (no righteousness of our own) except it abide in the vine (His righteousness); no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit (the manifestation of Christ in our lives becomes greater and greater): for without me ye can do nothing.

We can be righteous means that if we allow Him and if we come into agreement with the work that the Holy Spirit wants to do in us, conforming us to the image of Christ, we can realize more and more, experientially, the reality of being delivered from the power of sin and Satan and being conformed to the Lord Jesus.

It is not anything that we can produce on our own. Experiencing the overcoming life of Jesus Christ and walking in that power and grace only comes as we abide in Him. This is the fruit that God is looking for. He is looking for the character of His Son in us, not just a mental belief. He is looking for real faith and real faith trusts in His Son and this trust is demonstrated by our obedience to abide in Jesus Christ.

Axehead

I'm not trying, I DO understand. As long as we do not claim to be righteous in any was I agree to what you say here as well.
We can NEVER be righteous, but we can and do have Christ's righteousness when we accept Him.

Hi Stan,

I'm thinking about your contention that you will never be righteous because of 'there is none righteous, no, not one'.

When Paul quoted that in Romans 3, he was about to show how that statement would no longer apply, because now God's righteousness through faith in Christ could become ours. What you are maintaining, is a bit like this:

'There was a time when I was desperately hungry, but now, food has been imputed to me, (and although I haven't actually eaten it, because it will never actually be mine to eat), I am to consider myself no longer hungry.'


What?


Matthew 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Well like a lot of man-made analogies, your's fails in actually being relative. Paul is speaking TO believers, not unbelievers. He is explaining how the OT got it wrong and how, in Christ we get it right. Verse 22; This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile.
We receive it, we don't become it.

 

[us2are1]

We can NEVER be righteous, but we can and do have Christ's righteousness when we accept Him.

The devils can never be righteous and even they accept him. But by following Christ those who know his gospel and enter into his plan of salvation are saved. It is by doing what Christ said. No one is saved by speaking words into the air. That is the modern gospel of witchcraft dreamed up by devils to fleece God's sheep.

 

[Axehead]

The devils can never be righteous and even they accept him. But by following Christ those who know his gospel and enter into his plan of salvation are saved. It is by doing what Christ said. No one is saved by speaking words into the air. That is the modern gospel of witchcraft dreamed up by devils to fleece God's sheep.

What Son of Man says is true, Stan. Maybe you could explain to us what you mean by "Believe"? What does that look like in an everyday life of a Christian. Certainly, it cannot look like what the demons definition of believe is. It must be more and I am sure we would all like to hear what it looks like to you. Maybe we won't continue to have misunderstandings all along the way of this thread if we know what "believe" means to your understanding.

Thanks,
Axehead

 

[Stan]

What Son of Man says is true, Stan. Maybe you could explain to us what you mean by "Believe"? What does that look like in an everyday life of a Christian. Certainly, it cannot look like what the demons definition of believe is. It must be more and I am sure we would all like to hear what it looks like to you. Maybe we won't continue to have misunderstandings all along the way of this thread if we know what "believe" means to your understanding.

Thanks,
Axehead

What SOM says is word game, and not germane to the OP. James 2:19 talks about this as it pertains to our walk in Christ. Our salvation is a different kettle of fish. Paul states in sublimely and succinctly in Romans 10:9-13. Any misunderstanding is on the part of those that insist there is ANY good or righteousness in us. The Bible on a whole deals with many many issues. Mixing up those issues with one another will not help us see anything clearly.

 

[Axehead]

What SOM says is word game, and not germane to the OP. James 2:19 talks about this as it pertains to our walk in Christ. Our salvation is a different kettle of fish. Paul states in sublimely and succinctly in Romans 10:9-13. Any misunderstanding is on the part of those that insist there is ANY good or righteousness in us. The Bible on a whole deals with many many issues. Mixing up those issues with one another will not help us see anything clearly.

But Stan, this may be where the confusion is. This thread IS about our walk in Christ. We are not talking about the day of Salvation when someone is born again.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Stan,

Please note... I do 'hear' what you are saying, but, in the sense of ongoing righteousness through Christ, your thesis is not very practical. I know that the righteousness of Christ is eternal, and of a different quality than men possess on their own apart from Christ; so, isn't this why we have to die with Him to be raised to walking in HIS resurrection life? (Gal 2:20) Receiving His life means we exercise His quality of attributes, in a measure: Eph 4:13.

I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying two things:

1) that we can never become righteous as He is righteous, and,

2) we can never 'do' righteousness of the same quality as His righteousness - even though you say we 'receive' His righteousness.

To these I put this new example to you. Supposing one of your most besetting sins before becoming a Christian, had been to tell a lot of lies, would you expect after having received the righteousness of Christ, also to be able to stop lying (maybe with some practice)? Or, would you carry on telling lies, while at the same time announcing your faith in Christ, claiming His righteousness as your own?

Lying is a really handy example, because we call someone who tells lies, 'a liar'. But, depending on the sin, one could find a noun to demonstrate that we become what we do, and this is the reputation which not only we give ourselves, but as Christians, we give to the Lord.

John seems to have thought it is possible to 'do' righteousness, because he said this:

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


If he's correct.... then how does his statement meet yours in practical everyday reality?

 

[Stan]

But Stan, this may be where the confusion is. This thread IS about our walk in Christ. We are not talking about the day of Salvation when someone is born again.

OK well you started it by quoting Matthew 6:33 and that would be salvation. We have to seek the righteousness of God's kingdom first. That righteousness IS Jesus Christ, our Saviour and Redeemer. That to me is salvation. Our walk would be AFTER we secure God's righteousness, which we seek first.

 

[us2are1]

Do you always answer a question with a question?

You are still not getting it. You can never BE righteous.

You are still you even with the Spirit of Christ in you. Providing you do have the Spirit of Christ. If you have the Spirit of Christ and you are walking in the Spirit of Christ then you are righteous. it is because of Christ but still you are righteous. Your statement that "you can never be righteous" is not true.

 

[Stan]

Hi Stan,

Please note... I do 'hear' what you are saying, but, in the sense of ongoing righteousness through Christ, your thesis is not very practical. I know that the righteousness of Christ is eternal, and of a different quality than men possess on their own apart from Christ; so, isn't this why we have to die with Him to be raised to walking in HIS resurrection life? (Gal 2:20) Receiving His life means we exercise His quality of attributes, in a measure: Eph 4:13.

I may be misunderstanding you, but you seem to be saying two things:

1) that we can never become righteous as He is righteous, and,

2) we can never 'do' righteousness of the same quality as His righteousness - even though you say we 'receive' His righteousness.

To these I put this new example to you. Supposing one of your most besetting sins before becoming a Christian, had been to tell a lot of lies, would you expect after having received the righteousness of Christ, also to be able to stop lying (maybe with some practice)? Or, would you carry on telling lies, while at the same time announcing your faith in Christ, claiming His righteousness as your own?

Lying is a really handy example, because we call someone who tells lies, 'a liar'. But, depending on the sin, one could find a noun to demonstrate that we become what we do, and this is the reputation which not only we give ourselves, but as Christians, we give to the Lord.

John seems to have thought it is possible to 'do' righteousness, because he said this:

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.


If he's correct.... then how does his statement meet yours in practical everyday reality?

I'm not doing a thesis. I'm expressing my faith and understanding of God's word. What we are raised to, is Eternal Life. This is signified by our baptism following our conversion. We are submersed as Christ was in death, and we emerge as Christ did at His resurrection. This is the significance of water baptism. We cannot become righteous but we can receive righteousness in Christ. Jesus did NOT have a carnal nature as we do. His righteousness was pure and undefiled. We are defiled and therefore unable to BE righteous. ONLY in Christ can we hope to emulate Him, but we can't be Him, even though we are brothers and sisters by our adoption into God's family. Lies are not the only thing the tongue does, as James shows in 3:5-12. This goes to show just how unrighteous we can be while proclaiming our righteousness. James says in verse 10, My brothers and sisters, this should not be.
The fact is, it shouldn't and isn't, as James also shows in verses 11 & 12. Matthew 15:18; [sup] [/sup]But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. Our heart contains NO righeousness, ONLY Jesus does.
1 John 3:7 takes a little bit of pondering and meditating. First it has to be taken within the context of verses 2-3; Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when he is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
John drives home this point in verse 7, "just as He is righteous". Just as we purify ourselves with the hope of Jesus in us, we work at righteousness with the hope of Jesus in us. Both, will only be realized when He is revealed to us.

 

[us2are1]

You are still you, even with the Spirit of Christ in you. Providing you do have the Spirit of Christ. If you have the Spirit of Christ and you are walking in the Spirit of Christ then you are righteous. it is because of Christ but still you are righteous. Your statement that "you can never be righteous" is not true.

Romans 8
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.




.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Stan,

I'm not doing a thesis. I'm expressing my faith and understanding of God's word. What we are raised to, is Eternal Life. This is signified by our baptism following our conversion. We are submersed as Christ was in death, and we emerge as Christ did at His resurrection. This is the significance of water baptism. We cannot become righteous but we can receive righteousness in Christ. Jesus did NOT have a carnal nature as we do. His righteousness was pure and undefiled. We are defiled and therefore unable to BE righteous. ONLY in Christ can we hope to emulate Him, but we can't be Him, even though we are brothers and sisters by our adoption into God's family. Lies are not the only thing the tongue does, as James shows in 3:5-12. This goes to show just how unrighteous we can be while proclaiming our righteousness. James says in verse 10, My brothers and sisters, this should not be.
The fact is, it shouldn't and isn't, as James also shows in verses 11 & 12. Matthew 15:18; But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. Our heart contains NO righeousness, ONLY Jesus does.
1 John 3:7 takes a little bit of pondering and meditating. First it has to be taken within the context of verses 2-3; Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we will be. But we do know that when he is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
John drives home this point in verse 7, "just as He is righteous". Just as we purify ourselves with the hope of Jesus in us, we work at righteousness with the hope of Jesus in us. Both, will only be realized when He is revealed to us.

Thank you for the distinctions you have explained from the doctrine you've been taught. These distinctions are different from what I've been taught, and, from what I've experienced. For instance, until I was a Christian, I did not think Matt 6:33 applied to me, because until I was a Christian, I couldn't make any sense of scripture.

The other thing which strikes me from the points you made, is that the promises of the New Covenant are all reserved for the next world, rather than this. It seems you do not expect to be changed by receiving a new heart and a new spirit, and you do not believe you have resurrection life, now. All is watiing to happen in the future.

For instance, regarding water baptism by immersion, I would first state that when Jesus was baptised, He pre-figured His death and resurrection for us, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit (dove descending), so that when we rise from the waters of baptism, we expect to walk in the newness of life which He obtained for us by His actual death - which broke the power of sin - and His actual resurrection, (which proves to us His absolute conquest of (sin and) death). If we are no longer dead in trespasses and sins because we have become children of obedience and received His Spirit, then His life in us is far more powerful than that of our first birth. What you have written focuses strongly on the failures of the fallen nature. But if our fallen nature is dead in Him - the method God chose to free us from it - then we too are free(d) from sin. Rom 6:7 We are no longer bound (in bondage) to our 'old man'(nature). We do receive a new heart and a new spirit, by the circumcision of Christ, and, we walk in His life, which is new to us. Otherwise there could be no victory over our past sins, and no healing of spirit or restoration of soul - which we do experience as part of being saved.

Our heart contains NO righeousness, ONLY Jesus does.

Isn't this why a new heart is essential? It's our heart which is changed through faith, repentance and the Holy Spirit's presence.