Can you have God as your Father, without the Church as your mother?
- Thread starter aspen
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
- Status
Jiggy - have you considered the idea that we are called to be in relationship with each other, as members of the Body of Christ? It seems to me that the nature of relationships often brings negative aspects like you find in Church. I do not think that avoiding or shunning church saves you from all the crap that goes along with relationships.....do you see what I am saying?
Sure I see what your saying, relationships are hard work but I do not shun the ekklesia or the members of the body of Christ, I just have no need for any religious liturgy or gatherings. I have come to recognize the difference between the christian religious institution and Christ's ekklesia (body). I am not alone either, there are millions who recognize the same and no longer participate in religious practices. I spent many years within the religious system and several years as a licensed/ordained minister until Father changed my thinking about 10 years ago. I meet with other believers, sometimes not as often as I would like but I trust Father to bring it about. My spiritual growth excelled once outside of the religious institution's control and hindrance. But enough about my experiences, let's discuss and sort out what the scriptures confirm by employing sound reasoning. Are you willing and ready to really take a look at the naked truth at the cost of having to change your paradigm? I am.aspen2 said:
Hello again Selene,Selene said:
I never made any claim that the RCC wasn't a legitimate church, I just can't receive it as being the supreme authority over doctrine, given about 1600 years of corrupting influence. I left the RCC as my first "adult" decision at the age of 13 and after being "confirmed" in the faith. In those days, at least in the Parish my family attended, the nuns were quite abusive to children and the elder priests were dismissive of them. I had been reading scripture for some time and found it disturbing that the behavior of the clergy really didn't fit the person of Christ Jesus as portrayed in the gospels. When I started using the word "hypocrite" with respect to them, my mother took away the copy of the Bible that I was reading (but my father gave me a pocket New testament and Psalms that he'd been issued when in the military.) I was able to put these personal issues aside for the most part when I was still quite young.
Since I had a desire to know what was true and had also taken an interest in science, mysticism, philosophies, etc., while still very young, I continued to read scripture for another 26 years without really being able to reconcile the God of the Old testament to the person of Jesus Christ. It was in the midst of a sinful situation and a sinful lifestyle that I heard the gospel for the first time in my life. I'd read a gospel tract as a child, one that I'd received with Halloween candy, but didn't understand how saying a sinners prayer could be all that God required of me. The basic message of the tract was true enough, but the teaching of the church lead me to believe that there was a constant need to receive "Sacraments" and absolution from a priest, and that a person could never know if God accepted him (or her) until meeting Him face to face in heavenly judgment. Nothing could be further from the truth. The scripture speaks of the Jews having a veil over them whenever Moses was read and that their minds were blinded so that they weren't able to understand:
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 2 Corinthians 3:13-16
This was my experience as well. The scripture also tells us that the natural or "carnal" mind is unable to receive the things of Christ:
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14
In other words, a person must be made alive in Christ, born again of the Spirit of God, in order to understand or receive the things of the Spirit of God. To say that this is some unique gift to certain individuals within the church is to admit that the church is carnal and not spiritual. Jesus said this:26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. John 15:26 Now, Jesus made this statement to His disciples, but John tells us in his epistle 1st John that this is true of all genuine believers (all of whom are saints, holy ones before God): If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 John 5:9-11 You may not be seeing this, but the witness of God is the Holy Spirit and that same Holy Spirit is the witness that resides in those who receive Jesus by faith.
Generally, defenders of the RCC doctrine may have good intentions in the desire to protect what they believe to be sound, since anyone can make a claim to know God, but in holding to those doctrines you deprive yourselves of the gifts that He has given to those who are willing to receive them. God will not give anything to the double minded: 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; James 1:6-7
If you hold to doctrine which tells you that you aren't entitled to what God has freely given, isn't that doctrine making you double minded? I know professing born again believers that are still practicing Catholics and I never knew anyone could be so torn apart from the inside out, trying to believe the bible and at the same time reconcile it to RCC doctrine, when the two are commonly in conflict with regard to the basic doctrines of grace. God gives grace through His Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, not through priests (except that they may be faithful to proclaim the gospel and be empowered by His Spirit.) According to scripture, every true believer is a priest and part of a kingdom of priests. Why would you prefer to settle for less than what God has to offer? Why would you doubt God's word and cling to a system of slavery, always fearful of death and condemnation? What in the world is wrong with resting in God's love, knowing that you are accepted in Him because of what He's done for you, rather than what you can do for Him? If you can't receive these things, perhaps you should ask the Lord to show you what is true from the scripture and trust Him for the results. This will always be a problem for those who think that their "church elders" are infallible and have given them nothing but the truth, but the Lord has the desire that you grow in His grace, in the knowledge of Him, and be conformed to His image. He isn't stingy with His Spirit, but you have to approach Him without doubts (though you can ask for His help with unbelief as well.)
It is not in God's nature to disappoint those who place their trust in Him, but our trust must be in Him and not in ourselves, our church, our birth right, our origins, our understanding, etc. I'm not saying that God will answer every prayer, but He answers those prayers which are according to His will, and our salvation is according to His will. Knowing Him is according to His will. Receiving His Spirit is according to His will. Believing all that He has said is according to His will.
I'm by no means suggesting that you should abandon your church, but I am suggesting that liturgy and ceremony can be replaced with new life and new meaning when His Spirit reigns in the hearts of His people and they place their faith in what He says, rather than in traditions and flawed doctrine.
Selene
New Member
Hello Brother Michael. There will always be sinful members in the Roman Catholic Church. As I said, even the Apostle Peter denied Christ three times. In fact, there are sinful members in every church. While it is true that there are members in the Roman Catholic Church whose behavior is terrible, there are also many members who walk like Christ. Just look at how many Saints we have......St. Francis of Assissi who gave up everything, Father Damian who gave his life to serving the lepers rejected by society, Father Padre Pio who actually cured a blind girl with no pupils, and even Mother Theresa who dedicated her life to serving the poor. There are millions of saints, and the Catholic Church commemorates them almost everyday in her Mass. As Christ said, there will be weeds together with the crops, but in the end, the weeds will be separated from the crops that bear fruits.Michael V Pardo said:
It was Christ who instituted the sacraments and the teachings of the Church says that you can encounter Christ in the sacraments because He is present there. Christ instituted the sacraments so one can get to know Him better. God uses people as His instruments to speak through them (See Mark 13:11). We know for certain that we received absolution for our sins because we hear the words of God speaking through the priest. We know that we are one with Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist because we eat the Body of Christ and drink His blood. In other words, the Blood of Christ physically flows in my veins. How else can a Catholic be more one with Christ than having His blood flow in their veins?
A person who holds the RCC doctrines does not deprive himself/herself of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As you can see, I have proven our doctrines true in scripture. You asked about infallibility.......and I showed you that the Apostles had infallibility because they were able to preach and write the faith without error. This is the reason we believe the Bible to be the "word of God" and contain no errors. The infallible Holy Spirit uses fallible men to teach the faith infallibly because with God all things are possible. Infallibility did not cease with the Apostles. This infallibility, which comes from the Holy Spirit, continues to exist in the RCC.
Can you say for certain that your pastors have infallibility in teaching the faith?? No Protestant I know ever declare that their pastors have infallibility in teaching the faith?? So, if they don't have the infallibility of the Holy Spirit, why should I leave the RCC who declares that their bishops have the infallibility of the Holy Spirit.....the same infallibility that the Apostles have.
You asked about Apostolic succession, and I proved to you through scripture that the Apostolic succession exists. When Judas Iscariot died, he was replaced by Matthias so that the apostleship and ministry of Judas Iscariot would continue on.
You bring up the "bad popes" and other bad members in the Roman Catholic Church. I'm aware of those bad popes, but God remained true to His Church. Christ said, "The gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church" and that "He will be with us always." Christ remained true to His word. He did not lie. Regardless of the bad popes and other sinful members in the Church, the Roman Catholic Church is still standing. We have been standing for over 2000 years. Despite those few bad popes and sinful members, the RCC has many fruits to show.
We built schools, orphanges, hospitals, hospices, soup kitchens, counseling centers, pregnancy centers, and many others to help the poor, AIDS victims, orphans, widows, and those less fortunates. We have thousands of saints who dedicate their lives to serving the poor, the orphans, and other rejects of society. We have saints who sacrificed their lives by saving others the way Christ did. So, the RCC has many fruits.
For example, Mother Theresa took a vow of poverty and dedicated her life to serving the poor. She had no money, no car, no house....nothing....but she was able to build 517 missions in more than 100 countries. She was able to open hospices, orphanges, and leper houses all over India and then throughout the globe. This is the Holy Spirit at work. A woman who has no money but able to open up shelters, hospices, leper houses, counseling centers, orphanages, and soup kitchens to help the poorest of the poor can only be the accomplishment of the Holy Spirit.
Hello again Selene,Selene said:
Again, I've never suggested that you leave your church. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. As far as proving anything from scripture, well, that's questionable, but as I've said at least twice already, my purposes here are not to debate RCC doctrine, however:
You mentioned the fruit of the church, but what God expects is fruit from us, individually. What's more, the fruit that the Lord is looking for is not simply our good works, but the fruit of the Holy Spirit which manifests in good works through us; e.g.: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc.
I don't believe that someone like Mother Theresa would devote her life to serving those in desperate need, if the Holy Spirit weren't manifesting Himself in her life, but the Holy Spirit should be working and manifesting Himself in every believer's life if their faith is indeed genuine. Please don't misunderstand me here either. I'm not suggesting that anyone in the church is perfected on this side of eternity, but if we haven't received Him, then we can't be growing into His likeness. If you believe that you've received the Lord because you were baptized, that's a problem. Baptism doesn't impart grace, neither does obedience. Grace is a gift received through faith in the person of Jesus Christ.
You mentioned that you have the blood of Christ flowing through your veins, and no doubt because you partake of communion, but the scripture doesn't say such a thing, rather, Paul teaches us that, " For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. 27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world."
Our partaking of the communion table is a declaration of our belief in the death and imminent return of Jesus Christ, a testimony of faith through our action, but we are told to examine ourselves before receiving the cup, not after and such a declaration shouldn't be made lightly or frivolously at the risk of being found hypocrites or outright liars and condemned with the world: 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. Matthew 24:48-51
People try to make this an argument for the possibility of loosing one's salvation, but the admonition we have as believers is: 5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified. 2 Corinthians 13:4-6
If you don't have the assurance that Christ is in you through self examination, then you may not have Him. We are looking for the witness of the Holy Spirit within us and are reassured of our salvation by recognizing that we have His witness. God doesn't give us His Spirit to seal us as His own and then take it away from us:
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”6 So we may boldly say:
“The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me? ” Hebrews 13:4-6
It is never the Lord's purpose to make us doubt Him, but rather to encourage us in faith.
What does Jesus say to those hypocrites in the judgment?
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23
So clearly, it is not the works which we do which commend us to God, but the relationship that we have with Him in being born again by His Spirit. In case there is any doubt about what the will of the Father in heaven is, we find in the gospel according to John:
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.” John 6:28-29
My wife has a close friend who is a devout practicing Catholic, attends church nearly every day, reads the scripture and also reads doctrine from RCC web sites and other sources, but still doesn't know if she is "saved." How can this be if the scripture is indeed true? I would say that her devotion is a proof that she has received Christ by faith, but what is it that's keeping her from believing that she is Christ's now and forever, if it isn't the contrary doctrine that she's receiving? My point is not that you or anyone else should give up your church, but instead you should help to fix it by believing God's word and encouraging others to do so.
Selene
New Member
Hello Brother Michael. The fruits of the Church is also our individual fruits because we are the Church, the Body of Christ. Every member in the Body of Christ is one and not isolated from other members. Like you, we also believe that grace is a gift from God. And it is because of this grace that we receive from God that we are obedient like Christ and born again in the waters of rebirth and sanctified in the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are already "born again" because we are the sons and daughters of God. And as the sons and daughters of God, the Holy Spirit works through us. You are correct, it is the Holy Spirit inside Mother Theresa who does the work, just as I pointed out in my previous post. A woman with no money could never build all those shelters, orphanages, soup kitchens, counseling centers, and missions. It was the Holy Spirit that was doing all the work. God always uses people as His instruments to carry out His will. Mother Theresa was God's instrument.Michael V Pardo said:
I am happy being a Catholic, and I have no desire to leave the Roman Catholic Church. It is also good that you found happiness in your church.
Our partaking of the communion table is that we become one with Christ and share in His divinity just as He shared in our humanity in His incarnation as a man. Communion means to be one. This is why we take it seriously. The Eucharist is similar to the sacrament of marriage where husbands and wives are one. In the Eucharist, we become one with Christ. Just as a marriage or union between a man and woman is taken seriously, so is the union between Christ and us.
2 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
John 17:21-23 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
It is in the Sacrament of Baptism where we are buried with Christ in His death just as it says in the Holy Bible.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The only one who can truly say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven. As long as we are on earth, we can still lose our salvation (Hebrews 10:26). As the Holy Bible says: I am already saved (Romans 8:24, Ephesians 2:5-8), BUT I am also being saved (1 Corinthians 1:8, 2 Corinthians 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and I have the hope that I will be saved (Romans 5:9-10, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15). Like the Apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Romans 5:2, 2 Timothy 2:11-13).
So, while it is true that all those whom Christ received in His hand by His Father will not be lost (John 10:29), we still have the free will to walk out of Christ's hand. A good example is Judas Iscariot. All the 12 Apostles were chosen by God and given into Christ's hand, but Judas Iscariot chose to walk out of Christ's hand (See John 17:12).
None of the Christ's disciples received His Spirit until after the resurrection of Christ, so while they were cleansed by the word that they heard, they had not received the guarantor of their salvation. Judas was never saved and killed himself before the Holy Spirit was given to indwell believers (so no example at all.) Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, not us. It is God who works in us to will and to do. Am I or anyone else more powerful than God that I could walk away from Him or somehow eject His Spirit? Good try, but it doesn't work.Selene said:
Hebrews 10:26 is addressing those who reject the gospel, not those who have received it, the word brethren is used not to imply that the readers were Christian, but Hebrews, the end of the same chapter says: 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39
When it comes to interpreting scripture, context is king, but good try though. There is a better passage in Hebrews to support the notion of "loosing one's salvation," Hebrews 3:12, but the passage addresses Hebrews (those who were the original recipients of the promise) and is a warning to anyone with a heart of disbelief and compares those who reject Christ to those who refused to believe God (through Moses) and were afraid to enter the land of Canaan (because of the giants in the land). You can't loose salvation if you've received His Spirit, but His Spirit isn't received by eating a Eucharist or drinking some wine or grape juice, but rather by faith. Those who place their faith in sacraments have missed the point. The Jews had the problem that they believed they were guaranteed salvation by being sons of Abraham. How are those who believe that they have salvation because they are sons or daughters of the church any different? All born again believers are first generation, the generation of the righteous, born again of His Spirit by faith.
You're right that salvation is a process, we were saved, we are being saved, we will be fully saved, but this is all according to God's promise and through no works of our own :13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Ephesians 1:13-14
While it is possible to be self deceived about anything, no one who puts their faith in Christ will ever be disappointed, but the key to that understanding is where your faith is placed, anything other than Christ and the redemption purchased with His blood is problematic.
Selene
New Member
We have free will. God is not going to force us to follow and obey Him otherwise we would simply be robots. The Holy Spirit in us will not work in us if we say no to His will. Judas was chosen just like the rest of the Apostles, but he made his choice just like the rest of the Apostles. Even Mary had to give her "yes" in order for God to allow His will to take place in her (See Luke 1:38).Michael V Pardo said:
God wants us to love and serve Him. He wants to do great things in us, but He will not do it against our will. He allows us to choose to love and serve Him. He is not going to force us to love and serve Him. When we say yes, just as Mary did in Luke 1:38, then God will work in and through us.
This is incorrect. Hebrews 10:26 is referring to those who already received the Gospel of Truth. Look at the verse carefully and look at what I placed in bold and underlined.
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
It says "AFTER we received the knowledge of truth." Christians are the only ones who received the knowledge of truth. The verse goes on to say "who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant THAT SANCTIFIED THEM." Christians are the only ones who are sanctified through the blood of the covenant. Hebrews 10:26 is referring to Christians who lost their salvation. How did they lose it?? By deliberately sinning even after they received the knowledge of truth and being sanctified.
This is why Catholics never say that they are ALREADY saved. If I were to say that I am now saved, I would be committing the sin of presumption, which is a deliberate sin. The sin of presumption is badly regulated on God's mercy and power by believing in a salvation without doing anything to deserve it or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them.
One wonders how sincere a person’s love for God is when he is so readily willing to sin simply because God is forgiving. God cannot be fooled. He reads hearts and knows our sincerity. To decide to sin is to offend God. To decide to sin because one knows that he can be forgiven is to sin twice. To say that one is already saved despite the sins he commit simply because of God's mercy is the worse sin. It is to use God, reducing him to a utility at the service of our whim. It is to laugh at his passion and death.
Actually, the Book of Hebrews was addressed to the Hebrew Christians who were wavering in their faith due to temptations. One can tell it was written for the Hebrew Christians in Chapter 12. The author of Hebrews was telling the Hebrew Christians to hold fast to their faith in Jesus as they struggle against sin.
Is this really what all Catholics believe? One must earn salvation?
And that message is the very message about faith that we preach:9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.11 As the Scriptures tell us, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced. ”12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They have the same Lord, who gives generously to all who call on him.13 For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Romans 10:8-13 (NLT)
8 God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
Eph 2:8-10 (NLT)
For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time—to show us his grace through Christ Jesus.
2 Tim 1:9 (NLT)
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
John 1:29 (NLT)
For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.
2 Cor 5:21 (NLT)
For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with human hands, which was only a copy of the true one in heaven. He entered into heaven itself to appear now before God on our behalf.25 And he did not enter heaven to offer himself again and again, like the high priest here on earth who enters the Most Holy Place year after year with the blood of an animal.26 If that had been necessary, Christ would have had to die again and again, ever since the world began. But now, once for all time, he has appeared at the end of the age to remove sin by his own death as a sacrifice.27 And just as each person is destined to die once and after that comes judgment,28 so also Christ died once for all time as a sacrifice to take away the sins of many people. He will come again, not to deal with our sins, but to bring salvation to all who are eagerly waiting for him.
Heb 9:24-28 (NLT)
I had no idea that Catholics do not believe Christ is the blood sacrifice for all sin and that salvation is a free gift from God. Sounds like a rather burdensome religion over some of the others in the Christian religious institution.
The knowledge of the truth is the word of God, which was given to the Hebrews (as was the epistle with that title), but some didn't believe:Selene said:
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Philippians 2:12-14
We all make choices, some evil and some good, but God guides our footsteps. He is not unaware of the choices that we will make. Nothing that we do takes Him by surprise, and He is totally prepared for our ignorance, our petulance, our stubbornness, and even our rebellion. A good Father disciplines His children and so guides us in the way that we should go. A good Father doesn't allow His children to stray far from His will. Jesus expressed these things in metaphors about sheep. Is the Lord your shepherd? Do you think that He cares more about sheep than about people?
I'm using some hyperbole to make my point, and I'm confident that you don't believe the last to be true. Are children automatons or robots when their parents guide them to make the right choice? How does God become our parent? It isn't by being born into this world and it isn't by being dunked into water that was blessed. We all must receive His Spirit by faith in order to become sons (or daughters) of adoption. The fact that we are adopted rather than begotten by Him, doesn't make Him love us any less. God is characterized by love. Even His acts of justice and judgment are motivated by love: A good and loving God can't allow His creation to go on in ever increasing rejection of Him and of all that is good. The rejection of God only leads to immorality, violence, death, and murder, and how can love allow that to continue? We see how God's heart was grieved by violence before the flood. A fire is coming upon the earth to cleanse it once more. Even this was foreshadowed in the Old Testament rituals of cleansing, before any Apostle spoke of it.
Jiggly,
Well, I attend church because I like going so I am really not looking for a scriptural out.
Well, I attend church because I like going so I am really not looking for a scriptural out.
Selene
New Member
If you have children of your own, you know that there are times your children will make mistakes. As a father, you would guide them and teach them to do the right things. But when the children are gone, they make their own decisions, and parents often hope and pray that what they teach their kids will be enough to help them make the right decisions. No matter what bad things your son or daughter does, a parent will always love them. It is the same with God our Father. He loves us regardless of the evil things we do, but we have choices. God wants us to love and trust Him, but He will not force us to love and trust Him.Michael V Pardo said:
Why not when the church is not your mother? God is our Father and we have to come first to God should we want to be in His church? How can we be in the Church of the Lord if we will not come to the Lord God our Father first and become His follower and in return God our father who will put us in to His chruch? The church of the Lord is a body of believers and the Lord is the only Teacher in His church.aspen2 said:
Does anyone else see a problem with the concept of the ekklesia being the "mother" and being the "bride of Christ"? Would or better should Christ marry His mother?
I wonder do people really try to reconcile their thoughts before they submit them as truth?
I wonder do people really try to reconcile their thoughts before they submit them as truth?
Hmm...good point Jiggy. Many of us have had a guts full of this type of discussion...Vale - blanking peoples comments like that is just plain rude! Topic closed :huh:
- Status
Similar threads
