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Sure I see what your saying, relationships are hard work but I do not shun the ekklesia or the members of the body of Christ, I just have no need for any religious liturgy or gatherings. I have come to recognize the difference between the christian religious institution and Christ's ekklesia (body). I am not alone either, there are millions who recognize the same and no longer participate in religious practices. I spent many years within the religious system and several years as a licensed/ordained minister until Father changed my thinking about 10 years ago. I meet with other believers, sometimes not as often as I would like but I trust Father to bring it about. My spiritual growth excelled once outside of the religious institution's control and hindrance. But enough about my experiences, let's discuss and sort out what the scriptures confirm by employing sound reasoning. Are you willing and ready to really take a look at the naked truth at the cost of having to change your paradigm? I am.aspen2 said:Jiggy - have you considered the idea that we are called to be in relationship with each other, as members of the Body of Christ? It seems to me that the nature of relationships often brings negative aspects like you find in Church. I do not think that avoiding or shunning church saves you from all the crap that goes along with relationships.....do you see what I am saying?
Hello again Selene,Selene said:Hello Michael. We do have a few bad popes in history, and we know who they are. They were not taken off the list. Nevertheless, the teachings of the Catholic Church remains the same despite the bad popes we had in history. In fact, even the Apostle Peter could be viewed as a "bad Pope" because he denied Christ three times.
Actually, it was based upon scripture and I provided the scripture. St. Peter was the one who said that there should be no private interpretation of scripture. The fact that there are many Protestants reading the same Bible, and many of them are coming up with different interpretations is the reason why we leave it up to the Church leaders to make the interpretation. This is the reason why there are many different Protestant denominations. Let's say for example, that I wrote this one statement: I didn't say that you stole money. This statement can actually be interpreted in five different ways.
#1. I didn't say that you stole money..........means that someone else said it.
#2 I didn't SAY that you stole money...........means that I didn't such a thing. I said something else.
#3. I didn't say that YOU stole money........means that I stated someone else who stole it.
#4 I didn't say that you STOLE money.........means that I said that you borrowed the money, not stole it.
#5 I didn't say that you stole MONEY..........means that I said that you stole something else.
As you can see, if this one sentence can be interpreted in five different ways, how much more the Bible? This is why there are so many different Protestant denominations.
I agree. And the Roman Catholic Church is one of those Churches. The Eastern Orthodox Church is also an apostolic Church like us. Why? Because like us they can also trace their lineage to an Apostle of Christ. For example, the Church in Syria can trace their lineage to the Apostle Andrew. The Church in Jerusalem can trace their lineage to the Apostle James. The Church in Malta can trace their lineage to the Apostle Paul. The Roman Catholic Church can trace her lineage to the Apostle Peter. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church are the only two Churches that can trace their lineage to an Apostle.
Furthermore, you are correct that the first Christians were Jewish. And the only two Churches that you can see the Jewish heritage is only in the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church. You can see our Jewish roots in our liturgies and vestments, and this is the evidence showing that we are a Church built by Christ through an Apostle of Christ.....in this case "Peter."
Hello Brother Michael. There will always be sinful members in the Roman Catholic Church. As I said, even the Apostle Peter denied Christ three times. In fact, there are sinful members in every church. While it is true that there are members in the Roman Catholic Church whose behavior is terrible, there are also many members who walk like Christ. Just look at how many Saints we have......St. Francis of Assissi who gave up everything, Father Damian who gave his life to serving the lepers rejected by society, Father Padre Pio who actually cured a blind girl with no pupils, and even Mother Theresa who dedicated her life to serving the poor. There are millions of saints, and the Catholic Church commemorates them almost everyday in her Mass. As Christ said, there will be weeds together with the crops, but in the end, the weeds will be separated from the crops that bear fruits.Michael V Pardo said:Hello again Selene,
I never made any claim that the RCC wasn't a legitimate church, I just can't receive it as being the supreme authority over doctrine, given about 1600 years of corrupting influence. I left the RCC as my first "adult" decision at the age of 13 and after being "confirmed" in the faith. In those days, at least in the Parish my family attended, the nuns were quite abusive to children and the elder priests were dismissive of them. I had been reading scripture for some time and found it disturbing that the behavior of the clergy really didn't fit the person of Christ Jesus as portrayed in the gospels. When I started using the word "hypocrite" with respect to them, my mother took away the copy of the Bible that I was reading (but my father gave me a pocket New testament and Psalms that he'd been issued when in the military.) I was able to put these personal issues aside for the most part when I was still quite young.
It was Christ who instituted the sacraments and the teachings of the Church says that you can encounter Christ in the sacraments because He is present there. Christ instituted the sacraments so one can get to know Him better. God uses people as His instruments to speak through them (See Mark 13:11). We know for certain that we received absolution for our sins because we hear the words of God speaking through the priest. We know that we are one with Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist because we eat the Body of Christ and drink His blood. In other words, the Blood of Christ physically flows in my veins. How else can a Catholic be more one with Christ than having His blood flow in their veins?Since I had a desire to know what was true and had also taken an interest in science, mysticism, philosophies, etc., while still very young, I continued to read scripture for another 26 years without really being able to reconcile the God of the Old testament to the person of Jesus Christ. It was in the midst of a sinful situation and a sinful lifestyle that I heard the gospel for the first time in my life. I'd read a gospel tract as a child, one that I'd received with Halloween candy, but didn't understand how saying a sinners prayer could be all that God required of me. The basic message of the tract was true enough, but the teaching of the church lead me to believe that there was a constant need to receive "Sacraments" and absolution from a priest, and that a person could never know if God accepted him (or her) until meeting Him face to face in heavenly judgment. Nothing could be further from the truth. The scripture speaks of the Jews having a veil over them whenever Moses was read and that their minds were blinded so that they weren't able to understand:
13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 2 Corinthians 3:13-16
A person who holds the RCC doctrines does not deprive himself/herself of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As you can see, I have proven our doctrines true in scripture. You asked about infallibility.......and I showed you that the Apostles had infallibility because they were able to preach and write the faith without error. This is the reason we believe the Bible to be the "word of God" and contain no errors. The infallible Holy Spirit uses fallible men to teach the faith infallibly because with God all things are possible. Infallibility did not cease with the Apostles. This infallibility, which comes from the Holy Spirit, continues to exist in the RCC.Generally, defenders of the RCC doctrine may have good intentions in the desire to protect what they believe to be sound, since anyone can make a claim to know God, but in holding to those doctrines you deprive yourselves of the gifts that He has given to those who are willing to receive them. God will not give anything to the double minded: 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; James 1:6-7
Hello again Selene,Selene said:Hello Brother Michael. There will always be sinful members in the Roman Catholic Church. As I said, even the Apostle Peter denied Christ three times. In fact, there are sinful members in every church. While it is true that there are members in the Roman Catholic Church whose behavior is terrible, there are also many members who walk like Christ. Just look at how many Saints we have......St. Francis of Assissi who gave up everything, Father Damian who gave his life to serving the lepers rejected by society, Father Padre Pio who actually cured a blind girl with no pupils, and even Mother Theresa who dedicated her life to serving the poor. There are millions of saints, and the Catholic Church commemorates them almost everyday in her Mass. As Christ said, there will be weeds together with the crops, but in the end, the weeds will be separated from the crops that bear fruits.
It was Christ who instituted the sacraments and the teachings of the Church says that you can encounter Christ in the sacraments because He is present there. Christ instituted the sacraments so one can get to know Him better. God uses people as His instruments to speak through them (See Mark 13:11). We know for certain that we received absolution for our sins because we hear the words of God speaking through the priest. We know that we are one with Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist because we eat the Body of Christ and drink His blood. In other words, the Blood of Christ physically flows in my veins. How else can a Catholic be more one with Christ than having His blood flow in their veins?
A person who holds the RCC doctrines does not deprive himself/herself of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. As you can see, I have proven our doctrines true in scripture. You asked about infallibility.......and I showed you that the Apostles had infallibility because they were able to preach and write the faith without error. This is the reason we believe the Bible to be the "word of God" and contain no errors. The infallible Holy Spirit uses fallible men to teach the faith infallibly because with God all things are possible. Infallibility did not cease with the Apostles. This infallibility, which comes from the Holy Spirit, continues to exist in the RCC.
Can you say for certain that your pastors have infallibility in teaching the faith?? No Protestant I know ever declare that their pastors have infallibility in teaching the faith?? So, if they don't have the infallibility of the Holy Spirit, why should I leave the RCC who declares that their bishops have the infallibility of the Holy Spirit.....the same infallibility that the Apostles have.
You asked about Apostolic succession, and I proved to you through scripture that the Apostolic succession exists. When Judas Iscariot died, he was replaced by Matthias so that the apostleship and ministry of Judas Iscariot would continue on.
You bring up the "bad popes" and other bad members in the Roman Catholic Church. I'm aware of those bad popes, but God remained true to His Church. Christ said, "The gates of Hades will not prevail against His Church" and that "He will be with us always." Christ remained true to His word. He did not lie. Regardless of the bad popes and other sinful members in the Church, the Roman Catholic Church is still standing. We have been standing for over 2000 years. Despite those few bad popes and sinful members, the RCC has many fruits to show.
We built schools, orphanges, hospitals, hospices, soup kitchens, counseling centers, pregnancy centers, and many others to help the poor, AIDS victims, orphans, widows, and those less fortunates. We have thousands of saints who dedicate their lives to serving the poor, the orphans, and other rejects of society. We have saints who sacrificed their lives by saving others the way Christ did. So, the RCC has many fruits.
For example, Mother Theresa took a vow of poverty and dedicated her life to serving the poor. She had no money, no car, no house....nothing....but she was able to build 517 missions in more than 100 countries. She was able to open hospices, orphanges, and leper houses all over India and then throughout the globe. This is the Holy Spirit at work. A woman who has no money but able to open up shelters, hospices, leper houses, counseling centers, orphanages, and soup kitchens to help the poorest of the poor can only be the accomplishment of the Holy Spirit.
Hello Brother Michael. The fruits of the Church is also our individual fruits because we are the Church, the Body of Christ. Every member in the Body of Christ is one and not isolated from other members. Like you, we also believe that grace is a gift from God. And it is because of this grace that we receive from God that we are obedient like Christ and born again in the waters of rebirth and sanctified in the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are already "born again" because we are the sons and daughters of God. And as the sons and daughters of God, the Holy Spirit works through us. You are correct, it is the Holy Spirit inside Mother Theresa who does the work, just as I pointed out in my previous post. A woman with no money could never build all those shelters, orphanages, soup kitchens, counseling centers, and missions. It was the Holy Spirit that was doing all the work. God always uses people as His instruments to carry out His will. Mother Theresa was God's instrument.Michael V Pardo said:Hello again Selene,
Again, I've never suggested that you leave your church. I'm not sure where you're getting that from. As far as proving anything from scripture, well, that's questionable, but as I've said at least twice already, my purposes here are not to debate RCC doctrine, however:
You mentioned the fruit of the church, but what God expects is fruit from us, individually. What's more, the fruit that the Lord is looking for is not simply our good works, but the fruit of the Holy Spirit which manifests in good works through us; e.g.: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control, etc.
I don't believe that someone like Mother Theresa would devote her life to serving those in desperate need, if the Holy Spirit weren't manifesting Himself in her life, but the Holy Spirit should be working and manifesting Himself in every believer's life if their faith is indeed genuine. Please don't misunderstand me here either. I'm not suggesting that anyone in the church is perfected on this side of eternity, but if we haven't received Him, then we can't be growing into His likeness. If you believe that you've received the Lord because you were baptized, that's a problem. Baptism doesn't impart grace, neither does obedience. Grace is a gift received through faith in the person of Jesus Christ.
Our partaking of the communion table is a declaration of our belief in the death and imminent return of Jesus Christ, a testimony of faith through our action, but we are told to examine ourselves before receiving the cup, not after and such a declaration shouldn't be made lightly or frivolously at the risk of being found hypocrites or outright liars and condemned with the world:
The only one who can truly say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven. As long as we are on earth, we can still lose our salvation (Hebrews 10:26). As the Holy Bible says: I am already saved (Romans 8:24, Ephesians 2:5-8), BUT I am also being saved (1 Corinthians 1:8, 2 Corinthians 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and I have the hope that I will be saved (Romans 5:9-10, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15). Like the Apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Romans 5:2, 2 Timothy 2:11-13).My wife has a close friend who is a devout practicing Catholic, attends church nearly every day, reads the scripture and also reads doctrine from RCC web sites and other sources, but still doesn't know if she is "saved." How can this be if the scripture is indeed true? I would say that her devotion is a proof that she has received Christ by faith, but what is it that's keeping her from believing that she is Christ's now and forever, if it isn't the contrary doctrine that she's receiving? My point is not that you or anyone else should give up your church, but instead you should help to fix it by believing God's word and encouraging others to do so.
None of the Christ's disciples received His Spirit until after the resurrection of Christ, so while they were cleansed by the word that they heard, they had not received the guarantor of their salvation. Judas was never saved and killed himself before the Holy Spirit was given to indwell believers (so no example at all.) Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, not us. It is God who works in us to will and to do. Am I or anyone else more powerful than God that I could walk away from Him or somehow eject His Spirit? Good try, but it doesn't work.Selene said:Hello Brother Michael. The fruits of the Church is also our individual fruits because we are the Church, the Body of Christ. Every member in the Body of Christ is one and not isolated from other members. Like you, we also believe that grace is a gift from God. And it is because of this grace that we receive from God that we are obedient like Christ and born again in the waters of rebirth and sanctified in the Holy Spirit. In other words, we are already "born again" because we are the sons and daughters of God. And as the sons and daughters of God, the Holy Spirit works through us. You are correct, it is the Holy Spirit inside Mother Theresa who does the work, just as I pointed out in my previous post. A woman with no money could never build all those shelters, orphanages, soup kitchens, counseling centers, and missions. It was the Holy Spirit that was doing all the work. God always uses people as His instruments to carry out His will. Mother Theresa was God's instrument.
I am happy being a Catholic, and I have no desire to leave the Roman Catholic Church. It is also good that you found happiness in your church.
Our partaking of the communion table is that we become one with Christ and share in His divinity just as He shared in our humanity in His incarnation as a man. Communion means to be one. This is why we take it seriously. The Eucharist is similar to the sacrament of marriage where husbands and wives are one. In the Eucharist, we become one with Christ. Just as a marriage or union between a man and woman is taken seriously, so is the union between Christ and us.
2 Peter 1:4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
John 17:21-23 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
It is in the Sacrament of Baptism where we are buried with Christ in His death just as it says in the Holy Bible.
Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
The only one who can truly say that they are saved are those who are already in Heaven. As long as we are on earth, we can still lose our salvation (Hebrews 10:26). As the Holy Bible says: I am already saved (Romans 8:24, Ephesians 2:5-8), BUT I am also being saved (1 Corinthians 1:8, 2 Corinthians 2:15, Phil. 2:12, and I have the hope that I will be saved (Romans 5:9-10, 1 Corinthians 3:12-15). Like the Apostle Paul, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Romans 5:2, 2 Timothy 2:11-13).
So, while it is true that all those whom Christ received in His hand by His Father will not be lost (John 10:29), we still have the free will to walk out of Christ's hand. A good example is Judas Iscariot. All the 12 Apostles were chosen by God and given into Christ's hand, but Judas Iscariot chose to walk out of Christ's hand (See John 17:12).
We have free will. God is not going to force us to follow and obey Him otherwise we would simply be robots. The Holy Spirit in us will not work in us if we say no to His will. Judas was chosen just like the rest of the Apostles, but he made his choice just like the rest of the Apostles. Even Mary had to give her "yes" in order for God to allow His will to take place in her (See Luke 1:38).Michael V Pardo said:None of the Christ's disciples received His Spirit until after the resurrection of Christ, so while they were cleansed by the word that they heard, they had not received the guarantor of their salvation. Judas was never saved and killed himself before the Holy Spirit was given to indwell believers (so no example at all.) Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of our faith, not us. It is God who works in us to will and to do. Am I or anyone else more powerful than God that I could walk away from Him or somehow eject His Spirit? Good try, but it doesn't work.
Hebrews 10:26 is addressing those who reject the gospel, not those who have received it, the word brethren is used not to imply that the readers were Christian, but Hebrews, the end of the same chapter says: 39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Hebrews 10:39
Actually, the Book of Hebrews was addressed to the Hebrew Christians who were wavering in their faith due to temptations. One can tell it was written for the Hebrew Christians in Chapter 12. The author of Hebrews was telling the Hebrew Christians to hold fast to their faith in Jesus as they struggle against sin.When it comes to interpreting scripture, context is king, but good try though. There is a better passage in Hebrews to support the notion of "loosing one's salvation," Hebrews 3:12, but the passage addresses Hebrews (those who were the original recipients of the promise) and is a warning to anyone with a heart of disbelief and compares those who reject Christ to those who refused to believe God (through Moses) and were afraid to enter the land of Canaan (because of the giants in the land).
Is this really what all Catholics believe? One must earn salvation?This is why Catholics never say that they are ALREADY saved. If I were to say that I am now saved, I would be committing the sin of presumption, which is a deliberate sin. The sin of presumption is badly regulated on God's mercy and power by believing in a salvation without doing anything to deserve it or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them.
The knowledge of the truth is the word of God, which was given to the Hebrews (as was the epistle with that title), but some didn't believe:Selene said:We have free will. God is not going to force us to follow and obey Him otherwise we would simply be robots. The Holy Spirit in us will not work in us if we say no to His will. Judas was chosen just like the rest of the Apostles, but he made his choice just like the rest of the Apostles. Even Mary had to give her "yes" in order for God to allow His will to take place in her (See Luke 1:38).
God wants us to love and serve Him. He wants to do great things in us, but He will not do it against our will. He allows us to choose to love and serve Him. He is not going to force us to love and serve Him. When we say yes, just as Mary did in Luke 1:38, then God will work in and through us.
This is incorrect. Hebrews 10:26 is referring to those who already received the Gospel of Truth. Look at the verse carefully and look at what I placed in bold and underlined.
Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?
It says "AFTER we received the knowledge of truth." Christians are the only ones who received the knowledge of truth. The verse goes on to say "who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant THAT SANCTIFIED THEM." Christians are the only ones who are sanctified through the blood of the covenant. Hebrews 10:26 is referring to Christians who lost their salvation. How did they lose it?? By deliberately sinning even after they received the knowledge of truth and being sanctified.
This is why Catholics never say that they are ALREADY saved. If I were to say that I am now saved, I would be committing the sin of presumption, which is a deliberate sin. The sin of presumption is badly regulated on God's mercy and power by believing in a salvation without doing anything to deserve it or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them.
One wonders how sincere a person’s love for God is when he is so readily willing to sin simply because God is forgiving. God cannot be fooled. He reads hearts and knows our sincerity. To decide to sin is to offend God. To decide to sin because one knows that he can be forgiven is to sin twice. To say that one is already saved despite the sins he commit simply because of God's mercy is the worse sin. It is to use God, reducing him to a utility at the service of our whim. It is to laugh at his passion and death.
Actually, the Book of Hebrews was addressed to the Hebrew Christians who were wavering in their faith due to temptations. One can tell it was written for the Hebrew Christians in Chapter 12. The author of Hebrews was telling the Hebrew Christians to hold fast to their faith in Jesus as they struggle against sin.
If you have children of your own, you know that there are times your children will make mistakes. As a father, you would guide them and teach them to do the right things. But when the children are gone, they make their own decisions, and parents often hope and pray that what they teach their kids will be enough to help them make the right decisions. No matter what bad things your son or daughter does, a parent will always love them. It is the same with God our Father. He loves us regardless of the evil things we do, but we have choices. God wants us to love and trust Him, but He will not force us to love and trust Him.Michael V Pardo said:I'm using some hyperbole to make my point, and I'm confident that you don't believe the last to be true. Are children automatons or robots when their parents guide them to make the right choice? How does God become our parent? It isn't by being born into this world and it isn't by being dunked into water that was blessed. We all must receive His Spirit by faith in order to become sons (or daughters) of adoption. The fact that we are adopted rather than begotten by Him, doesn't make Him love us any less. God is characterized by love. Even His acts of justice and judgment are motivated by love: A good and loving God can't allow His creation to go on in ever increasing rejection of Him and of all that is good. The rejection of God only leads to immorality, violence, death, and murder, and how can love allow that to continue? We see how God's heart was grieved by violence before the flood. A fire is coming upon the earth to cleanse it once more. Even this was foreshadowed in the Old Testament rituals of cleansing, before any Apostle spoke of it.
Cool, if your satisfied with it then stick with it.aspen2 said:Jiggly,
Well, I attend church because I like going so I am really not looking for a scriptural out.
Why not when the church is not your mother? God is our Father and we have to come first to God should we want to be in His church? How can we be in the Church of the Lord if we will not come to the Lord God our Father first and become His follower and in return God our father who will put us in to His chruch? The church of the Lord is a body of believers and the Lord is the only Teacher in His church.aspen2 said:Not possible.
We are called to be one body.