veteran
New Member
veteran, reading a little further on from your Rom.11: 1-5 we find this-
Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
Rom. 13:11 '-for salvation is nearer to us now then when we first believed.'. If we already have salvation, then how can we only be nearer to it?
So did that apply to Christ's Apostles, even Apostle Paul? Could that be applied to those whom God chose in OT times like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, David, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jonah (huge example), Job, etc.?? The answer is NO. Back in Romans 9 Paul already revealed this difference when he mentioned how before Jacob and Esau were born, neither having chance to do good or evil, God hated Esau, but loved Jacob.
What I'm trying to get you to understand by what Paul declared there in Rom.11:1-5 is that 'remnant' which God has already preserved according the election of grace is by God's Own Hand. Our Lord Jesus covered more of this in John 17, might want to study it line upon line and notice two groups are being point to, the first group being an elect chosen leadership in The Gospel, and a second group that would be joined with them who come to believe on Jesus Christ through their word (preaching). Even though Christ's Apostles at the time of His first coming have passed on, this remnant election which God has preserved unto Himself still exists on earth today.
Here's an example of an end time event pointing to Paul's remnant election idea...
Matt 24:22-24
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
(KJV)
The "false Christs" phrase is actually Greek 'pseudochristos', meaning 'a pseudo Christ'. Our Lord Jesus is giving that as an example of how strong... the level of deception caused by that false one's working of "great signs and wonders" will be. He uses the idea of His elect to show that. The "insomuch that, if it were possible" phrase is a conditional phrase, and what does it reveal? It reveals His elect servants CANNOT BE DECEIVED by those great signs and wonders that pseudo christ is coming to work. It's the same thing as saying, 'it is impossible' for His elect to be deceived by that false one's working.
Is that meant for all... believers on Christ Jesus? No.
We know that by Paul's warnings to believers in Scripture like 2 Cor.11 and 2 Thess.2 about the great apostasy of many believers by the coming fake messiah. Even at the first of Christ's Olivet Discourse in Matt.24 His very first warning was to not allow any man to deceive us.
So how is it that it is not possible... for His elect to be deceived, like our Lord Jesus revealed there in Matt.24:24? It's because those have already been predestinated, justified, and glorified, like Paul taught back in Romans 8:28-30. They represent an elect group of servants that God has pre-ordained to not fall away from Christ, even all the way to the end when Christ returns.
Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
(KJV)
With our Lord's 7 Messages to the 7 Churches in Asia, we see this once again, for only 2 of the 7 Churches Christ had no rebuke for (that of Smyrna and Philadelphia). And only ... those 2 Churches did He bring up the subject of the "synagogue of Satan" with.
So there is an elect remnant which God has preserved unto His Salvation through Christ Jesus, and they cannot fall away. All others can fall away, of which some will and other will not. That's what negates the "once saved, always saved" doctrine of men.
Paul (Saul) is one of the greatest Biblical examples of a 'chosen' elect by Christ. Paul was in the act of persecuting Christ's Church, hunting them down and bringing Christians in chains back to Jerusalem to be tried. Christ DIRECTLY INTERVENED with Paul, converting him on the road to Damascus (Acts 9). And when Jesus was questioned about Paul's conversion because of his history as a persecutor of Christians, our Lord Jesus said Paul was a "chosen vessel" unto Him. So God's Word does reveal the idea of a chosen elect that cannot be turned away from Christ, and that it does not apply to all believers, but only to those which Christ selects as chosen vesssels, using Divine Intervention.
veteran says
Were those 'called' only? No, those were called AND... chosen. Could they reject God's calling as chosen sent ones? Nope. Apostle Paul is one of best examples of that too, for he had authority to hunt down Christians from the Jews, and was on the road to Damascus to do just that, when Christ Jesus DIRECTLY intervened and converted him.
a person who is called and chosen CAN reject God's calling as chosen sent ones. like you said paul chose to remain and do what Christ's purpose for him was. had paul hardened his heart against God to do the will of God then paul probably never would of gotten his sight back. according the the word each and every one of us were created before the foundation of the world to accomplish something for God. we were given all the gifts and abilities needed to accomplish this task God has for us. God calls people to him all the time but very few actually chose to do what it is God is asking us to do or we are willing but somewhere we get sidetracked and get lead astray from God's original purpose for our life. this is why it is written that many are called but few are chosen.
God bless
Per the Matt.24:24, it would have been impossible for Apostle Paul to fall away from Christ Jesus. Just the mere act of Christ having DIVINELY INTERVENED with converting Paul is proof of this, as also with Paul continually being pulled out of dangers during his commission to preach The Gospel under many dangers. And especially with Paul towards the end of his commission being shown his end was soon coming (Acts 20; Acts 23; 2 Tim.4).
Jonah in the Old Testament is another major proof of an elect chosen one that cannot go astray. Jonah tried to refuse God commanding him to go preach to the city of Nineveh, even jumped overboard off the boat. Who won that contest??
It's for this reason of a chosen elect that God often DIRECTLY INTERVENED in their lives throughout Bible history.
I know all of us as believers on Christ Jesus would like to think of ourselves as His chosen elect which can never fall away from Him. But most of us well know we've not been under the same kind of working by God's Hand as the chosen Patriarchs, prophets, and Apostles have been. So we should not want to detract from God's Will in having chosen them by trying to apply it to ourselves, which would be to exalt ourselves beyond the calling we have been given from our Heavenly Father and His Son. I will only admit that I am 'called' and not a 'chosen' one, although there might be a possibility otherwise which could manifest in the future tribulation, and the same would apply to most believers here also.