Can you lose your salvation?

[mjrhealth]

Oh where is mans faith, is teh aroogance of man greater than teh power of God, or will Christ find faith on thss earth when He comes, So much disbelief in this world

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Even christians persih because they do not believe in the power of God to save man, so he spends all his life trying to prove himself, make himself worthy as if "death" was not a great enough sacrifce for Christ to pay.
Rom_6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom_6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

If you would all give Jesus 5 min off your time instead of church 2 hrs you will see the power of God. In Him is teh truth in Him there is no lie for He is teh living word.

 

[justaname]

Philippians 3

Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

Salvation is not to be gained and lost, only gained by those who persevere....

 

[Phoneman777]

Please read John 15 again...

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

The branch that does not remain in the vine is thrown away and withers. They are then picked up and thrown into the fire. God cuts off every branch that does not bear any fruit and prunes those who do. These branches are still connected to the vine until ~
1. The branch decides not to remain in the vine
2. The branch bears no fruit.

As I have already said in the comment s above:
"I think God gives everyone he calls a chance. The ones who manage to cross the Jordan are safe. The ones who do not cross are stuck on the other side until they make the choice to cross. If they die before that...they do so without the saviors promises."

My analogy refers to those who remain/stay founded in Christ. The choice is still in the hands of the branch whether it remains in the vine and/or whether it bears fruit....

It is comparable to a similar parable that Jesus spoke of, regarding the fig tree in Luke 13

6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig tree growing in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it but did not find any. 7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, ‘For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
8 “‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig around it and fertilize it. 9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’”

2 Peter 3 says ~

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Not that all will come to a place of repentance...however, it does show the heart that God has toward all people...

Agree with everything except the "safe once we cross the Jordan" part. There is no boundary we can cross and be safe from losing salvation. However:

"there is a line by us unseen,
which crosses ev'ry path;
the hidden boundary between,
God's patience and His wrath..."

There is a line that we can cross which after leaves both the sinner and the apostate beyond salvation. We need not concern ourselves at all with the location of this line - simply by abiding in Jesus minute by minute, moment by moment, we are safe. If we slip up, there's grace to cover our sin, only if we immediately heed the pleadings of Jesus to repent and reestablish our connection to the Vine. The longer we refuse, the more hardened our hearts become, the more difficult it becomes to repent, until finally, after we cross that unseen line, that's all folks.

 

[justaname]

Agree with everything except the "safe once we cross the Jordan" part. There is no boundary we can cross and be safe from losing salvation. However:

"there is a line by us unseen,
which crosses ev'ry path;
the hidden boundary between,
God's patience and His wrath..."

There is a line that we can cross which after leaves both the sinner and the apostate beyond salvation. We need not concern ourselves at all with the location of this line - simply by abiding in Jesus minute by minute, moment by moment, we are safe. If we slip up, there's grace to cover our sin, only if we immediately heed the pleadings of Jesus to repent and reestablish our connection to the Vine. The longer we refuse, the more hardened our hearts become, the more difficult it becomes to repent, until finally, after we cross that unseen line, that's all folks.

Can you define what you mean by "slip up"? I am uncertain if I understand your theology. Are you stating Jesus' death on the cross only pays for our sins up to the point we come to Christ? After that we are dependent on our work of continual repentance? No longer is it Christ that has paid the penalty for sin, it is our act of continual repentance that saves us?

Are you aware of the depths sin has over you in this theology? Do you know of sins of omission? How about the sin of vanity, or pride, or coveting? Have you become perfect or do you constantly give prayers repentance? What if you "slip up" then die before you get a chance to repent?

Yet I do not see the Scripture affirming this nor is this the Gospel message. What does it say?

Romans 6:
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means! 16Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Please meditate on verse 17 here...

What do you do with this passage from John?

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.


My contention is this: Those who are saved do bear fruit. Those who are saved do abide in Christ. Children of God persevere unto eternal life. These are the only ones to have "salvation". Salvation is presented as a past, present, and future doctrine. Who has seen the resurrection on this forum?

that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead, not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

 

[Phoneman777]

Can you define what you mean by "slip up"? I am uncertain if I understand your theology.

1) No, Christ's sacrifice provides grace to cover all sin, but are all sins covered? Of course not - only those sins from which we turn and repent are covered. "He that covereth his sin shall not prosper, but whosoever confesseth AND forsaketh his sin shall have mercy" Proverbs 28:13 KJV

2) A "slip up" is sin, like blowing up at another driver. When the Holy Spirit comes afterward to convince us of that, we are then faced with the choice of either repenting and remaining attached to the Vine or rebelling and severing that connection.

In the case of repentance, grace provides forgiveness for the sin and power to become more patient with others - like Jesus was and is.

In the case of rebellion, grace is not provided because "ye receive not because ye ask not". However, in His mercy, Christ begins pleading urgently with us to turn from our wicked course and repent and reestablish our connection to the Vine. The longer we resist, the less we hear His pleadings, until finally they are heard no more - we cross the unseen line between God's patience and His wrath and commit the Unpardonable Sin.


3) Eternal security is found only in a day by day, moment by moment conscious, intelligent choice to "abide in the Vine", not in the idea of "irrevocable salvation" - an idea which appeals only to those who want both Christ and Satan to have joint custody of the children.

 

[justaname]

1) No, Christ's sacrifice provides grace to cover all sin, but are all sins covered? Of course not - only those sins from which we turn and repent are covered. "He that covereth his sin shall not prosper, but whosoever confesseth AND forsaketh his sin shall have mercy" Proverbs 28:13 KJV

2) A "slip up" is sin, like blowing up at another driver. When the Holy Spirit comes afterward to convince us of that, we are then faced with the choice of either repenting and remaining attached to the Vine or rebelling and severing that connection.

In the case of repentance, grace provides forgiveness for the sin and power to become more patient with others - like Jesus was and is.

In the case of rebellion, grace is not provided because "ye receive not because ye ask not". However, in His mercy, Christ begins pleading urgently with us to turn from our wicked course and repent and reestablish our connection to the Vine. The longer we resist, the less we hear His pleadings, until finally they are heard no more - we cross the unseen line between God's patience and His wrath and commit the Unpardonable Sin.


3) Eternal security is found only in a day by day, moment by moment conscious, intelligent choice to "abide in the Vine", not in the idea of "irrevocable salvation" - an idea which appeals only to those who want both Christ and Satan to have joint custody of the children.

So then from your view people are continually loosing and gaining their salvation based on repentance of sin. We are saved by repentance and good timing to our death that all sin has been repented of before we die. On the vine one second, off the vine the next. Be it by our strength that we repent.

Correct?

Here is the gospel message in succinct fashion:

9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." - Romans 10:9-11

Do you believe this Scripture?

Here then is the gospel again:

1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you-unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, - 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

We are saved through our belief (faith) in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Do not add to this gospel and you will have received the gospel as handed down by the apostles and saints. Faith is the means while Christ is the foundation of our salvation.

 

[StanJ]

We are saved through our belief (faith) in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Do not add to this gospel and you will have received the gospel as handed down by the apostles and saints. Faith is the means while Christ is the foundation of our salvation.

I agree with mostly everything you said in this post except for Christ being the foundation of our salvation.
Jesus IS our salvation, not just the foundation.

 

[justaname]

I agree with mostly everything you said in this post except for Christ being the foundation of our salvation.
Jesus IS our salvation, not just the foundation.

Thanks Stan for pointing out Jesus is our salvation!!!!!

 

[Phoneman777]

So then from your view people are continually loosing and gaining their salvation based on repentance of sin

Why do Christians think they can alternate back and forth between abiding in Christ's Vine and grafting themselves to Satan's Holly tree? As I've stated earlier, Christ and Satan do not share custody of the children - we either remain in Christ or we don't.

 

[justaname]

Why do Christians think they can alternate back and forth between abiding in Christ's Vine and grafting themselves to Satan's Holly tree? As I've stated earlier, Christ and Satan do not share custody of the children - we either remain in Christ or we don't.

Who is teaching this alternating idea?????

Straw-Man...

I have showed the gospel message concerning salvation.

 

[Born_Again]

Why do Christians think they can alternate back and forth between abiding in Christ's Vine and grafting themselves to Satan's Holly tree? As I've stated earlier, Christ and Satan do not share custody of the children - we either remain in Christ or we don't.

This defeats the purpose of grace. Do you think the moment you become saved, Satan just walks away and leaves you alone?

 

[StanJ]

This defeats the purpose of grace. Do you think the moment you become saved, Satan just walks away and leaves you alone?

Exactly, which is what 1st Peter 5:8 teaches;
Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

 

[Phoneman777]

This defeats the purpose of grace. Do you think the moment you become saved, Satan just walks away and leaves you alone?

BA, please look at it this way: If you go to the funeral of an alcoholic and hold a bottle of his favorite drink in front of him, what will be his response? None, right?

Paul concludes the very same by his statement: "God forbid! How shall we, who are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Those who profess to be covered by grace but continue to live in sin are not covered with Christ's righteousness, but with a cloak of self-deceit.

 

[Phoneman777]

Who is teaching this alternating idea?????

Straw-Man...

I have showed the gospel message concerning salvation.

The Gospel is not a message that says "now now, Christian, don't do any of that bad stuff b/c God won't like it...you'll still go to heaven but you'll get fewer jewels in your crown." It's the most perverted of all the false Gospels out there. Is that what you preach?

 

[justaname]

The Gospel is not a message that says "now now, Christian, don't do any of that bad stuff b/c God won't like it...you'll still go to heaven but you'll get fewer jewels in your crown." It's the most perverted of all the false Gospels out there. Is that what you preach?

I showed you the gospel I preach and used Scripture to support it. So no, what you posted is not the gospel I preach.

Show me the gospel you preach.

 

[StanJ]

BA, please look at it this way: If you go to the funeral of an alcoholic and hold a bottle of his favorite drink in front of him, what will be his response? None, right?
Paul concludes the very same by his statement: "God forbid! How shall we, who are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" Those who profess to be covered by grace but continue to live in sin are not covered with Christ's righteousness, but with a cloak of self-deceit.

Illogical fallacies really don't work Phoneman.
Romans 6 Paul was referring to a particular group of people who were saying it was okay to maintain a sinful lifestyle even though they were saved and nobody that I've seen on this thread says it is okay to sin, however John does say in 1st John 2 that if we do sin we have an advocate in Jesus. As our only Advocate and Mediator, Jesus remind God that we have been saved from our sins by his sacrifice and that's why he is called both an advocate and a mediator. Now obviously this is metaphorical but it still works in the spiritual sense. Nobody is made perfect when they are saved but we do strive for perfection and that perfection is not in thd normal sense, but in the sense of being made whole.

 

[justaname]

Another Scripture depicting the gospel in it's entirety.

36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." - Acts 10:36-43

Meditate on verse 43....

 

[Phoneman777]

I showed you the gospel I preach and used Scripture to support it. So no, what you posted is not the gospel I preach.

Show me the gospel you preach.

The Gospel I preach is simply this: "He that covereth his sin shall not prosper, but whosoever confesseth and forsaketh his sin shall have mercy."

 

[Phoneman777]

Another Scripture depicting the gospel in it's entirety.

36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." - Acts 10:36-43

Meditate on verse 43....

Believing in Jesus as Savior is insufficient. We must also believe He is our LORD to be obeyed. Grace is both Pardon and Power.

 

[emekrus]

Could someone who believes in justification by faith without works, explain what James was saying concerning the justification of Abraham by works and not faith only? What about the apostle Paul's injunction to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

Then Peter's exhortation to be diligent to make our salvation sure. And he also said, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the unrighteous appear? Then what did the apostle Paul mean when he said "we should fear lest we also be cut off (Romans)".

Then again, can someone help me explain why Jesus said "many shall say to me on that day, Lord did we not prophesy and cast out devils in your name? yet he will reply them, depart from me you workers of iniquity" (The folks he would be telling that ought to be saved initially--wouldn't you think?).

I want the individuals who believe in faith without works to help me answer these questions if their points of view is to hold water.

Emekrus.