Carnal Christians Are Saved Believers

[Christ4Me]

New believers can be seen as babes in Christ and thus carnal still.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

An example is how some saved believers today identify themselves as a Calvinist. As much as they convey that they are mature in Christ by the knowledge from John Calvin, still, to be identified as a Calvinist is to be carnal.

History noted that John Calvin supported the execution of a heretic & yet John 16:1-3 would judge that action as being done by those who did not know Him nor the Father.

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Excommunication is all Jesus taught for catching a brother in a trespass who refuses to repent in spite of the scripture's correction by the whole church in speaking the same thing & holding to the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Therefore, we are not to be identified as disciples of John Calvin but disciples of Jesus Christ. There are many believers being carnal identifying themselves as a Calvinist and yet in spite of being carnal, they are still considered babes in Christ; hence saved.

Course there are different degrees of being carnal by which one can reap corruption & defile the temple of God that is our physical bodies, but there is such a thing as a carnal Christian and they are still saved, but not following Him as His disciples in one form of carnality or another for why saved believers that know better are to correct them or withdraw from fellowship when refusing correction in the hopes it will lead them to repentance.

So when the Bridegroom excommunicates saved believers not found abiding in Him, and get left behind as denied to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven which is to be held in sincerity & truth and not in wickedness, they are still saved, but becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready by Him helping them to depart from iniquity.

This is why we are to trust Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd and not the church as we are to prove everything by Him in regards to church's teachings & even your Christian leaders'.

 

[Episkopos]

There are two levels or standards that are according to God's ways (plural). Now most people do NOT know God's ways and because of this will through ignorance pit one level against the other. Because the New Testament is really only concerned with the higher walk in Christ, there is a tendency to be ignorant of God's mercy so as only to see the way (singular) that is in Christ as being acceptable to God. Such people destroy righteousness (according to the scriptures of the Old Testament) AND holiness by doing so. It is only as we recognize God's mercy towards the righteous that we have a place among the righteous. (Of course very few will be able to endure this very sound doctrine ). God's ways are as follows....

1. The level of righteousness is a universal one. Believers and non-believers may be included...depending on their works and attitude. A new Christian has received a gift that allows him/her to AT LEAST be on this level. Humility and the fear of the Lord ensure a continuation in the "goodness" of the Lord. God's mercy is not directed at certain persons over others because of who they are. God is NOT a respecter of persons. Righteous is as righteous does. A gift from God does not negate what we do with it. Burying our talent has dire consequences. God accepts those who DO His commandments....who DO His will. God's mercy is non-exclusive (contrary to dogmatic religionists who limit God to their particular religious ideology). The righteous still sin at times because they are walking in their own strength. So it is true that a person can be both righteous AND a sinner at the same time. (At least Luther got that right) If it were not so then no one could advance beyond the sinful stage.

2. The level of holiness can only be attained by a full measure of grace to be found by abiding in Christ. It is as we enter INTO Christ that we walk as Jesus walked. Those who claim this level of walk will be judged far more severely than the first level. Vessels of dishonour abound by making false claims about God's ways. Notice the goodness and severity of God. This level of walk...if it can be maintained by faith and faithfulness...leads to glory. The holiness of God is exclusive to those who are conformed to the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus. Such as these receive the gift of God's righteousness as a covering.

The basic salvation standard is according to righteousness. The more advanced holiness standard is according to glory and intimacy with God.

A carnal believer is OK with God as long as the righteous standard is maintained (honesty, the fear of God, and humility). Such are acceptable to God. To be pleasing to God requires a full surrender into the resurrection life of Christ...after going to the cross of Christ in order to be made conformable to His death.

 

[Robert Gwin]

New believers can be seen as babes in Christ and thus carnal still.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

An example is how some saved believers today identify themselves as a Calvinist. As much as they convey that they are mature in Christ by the knowledge from John Calvin, still, to be identified as a Calvinist is to be carnal.

History noted that John Calvin supported the execution of a heretic & yet John 16:1-3 would judge that action as being done by those who did not know Him nor the Father.

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Excommunication is all Jesus taught for catching a brother in a trespass who refuses to repent in spite of the scripture's correction by the whole church in speaking the same thing & holding to the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Therefore, we are not to be identified as disciples of John Calvin but disciples of Jesus Christ. There are many believers being carnal identifying themselves as a Calvinist and yet in spite of being carnal, they are still considered babes in Christ; hence saved.

Course there are different degrees of being carnal by which one can reap corruption & defile the temple of God that is our physical bodies, but there is such a thing as a carnal Christian and they are still saved, but not following Him as His disciples in one form of carnality or another for why saved believers that know better are to correct them or withdraw from fellowship when refusing correction in the hopes it will lead them to repentance.

So when the Bridegroom excommunicates saved believers not found abiding in Him, and get left behind as denied to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven which is to be held in sincerity & truth and not in wickedness, they are still saved, but becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready by Him helping them to depart from iniquity.

This is why we are to trust Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd and not the church as we are to prove everything by Him in regards to church's teachings & even your Christian leaders'.

All humans are carnal for sure, and yes some of us will be saved. In fact, some of us will become spirit beings.

 

[Christ4Me]

@Episkopos & @Robert Gwin

The unbelievers are condemned already.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The saved believer will be judged by what they built on that foundation and any works of the flesh be on it that defiles the temple of God, if they do not look to Him for help in departing from iniquity, then by that iniquity that denies Him, He will deny them, but he will finish His work in those left behind in burning off of that foundation all that offends so they will be partakers of His holiness, their physical bodies destroyed but their spirits is with the Lord still.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

This unrepentant church will be judged by their works with death when cast, as in left behind, into the coming great tribulation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

In spite of being denied by Him to attend the marriage Supper in Heaven, He still abides for why their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven after they die when left behind.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

So let that terror be on the conscience of saved believers that they best look to Jesus Christ for help in laying aside every weight &sin daily thus walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son in abiding in Him & His words to be ready to go and willing to go when He comes as the Bridegroom or else be left behind as saved, but denied being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection for not being ready at the rapture event.

 

[Episkopos]

@Episkopos & @Robert Gwin

The unbelievers are condemned already.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The saved believer will be judged by what they built on that foundation and any works of the flesh be on it that defiles the temple of God, if they do not look to Him for help in departing from iniquity, then by that iniquity that denies Him, He will deny them, but he will finish His work in those left behind in burning off of that foundation all that offends so they will be partakers of His holiness, their physical bodies destroyed but their spirits is with the Lord still.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

This unrepentant church will be judged by their works with death when cast, as in left behind, into the coming great tribulation.

Revelation 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. 20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

In spite of being denied by Him to attend the marriage Supper in Heaven, He still abides for why their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven after they die when left behind.

2 Corinthians 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

So let that terror be on the conscience of saved believers that they best look to Jesus Christ for help in laying aside every weight &sin daily thus walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son in abiding in Him & His words to be ready to go and willing to go when He comes as the Bridegroom or else be left behind as saved, but denied being partakers of the firstfruits of the resurrection for not being ready at the rapture event.

Correction: the unbelievers among His people are condemned...not people who have not had the opportunity to know the Lord.

 

[Lambano]

2. The level of holiness can only be attained by a full measure of grace to be found by abiding in Christ. It is as we enter INTO Christ that we walk as Jesus walked.

To be pleasing to God requires a full surrender into the resurrection life of Christ...after going to the cross of Christ in order to be made conformable to His death.

Could you expand on this, please? (And I realize this is a somewhat open-ended question.) How does one enter into and abide in Christ? And what does that mean?

 

[Episkopos]

Could you expand on this, please? (And I realize this is a somewhat open-ended question.)

The bible contains 2 levels or covenants. The first is according to righteousness... (Read Ez. chapters 18 and 33 for particulars)...and the New Testament is according to holiness...to walk as Jesus walked.

Both together are known as God's ways or paths. The way of righteousness and the way of holiness. In the OT we see the way of righteousness...even up until John the Baptist.

Matt. 21:32 "For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him. And even when you saw it, you did not afterward change your minds and believe him."

The wide road that leads to destruction is a perversion of the narrow road...making it wider by lies and half-truths.

The way in Christ is according to holiness...

Eph. 4: 24 "And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

In the NT God has upped the ante.

 

[Christ4Me]

Correction: the unbelievers among His people are condemned...not people who have not had the opportunity to know the Lord.

God knows those who seek Him from those that do not. That is God having foreknowledge of all who would believe in Him if they knew the gospel.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We see an example of this in His leading in the early church in the Book of Acts about who would receive Him from those not seeking Him at all.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

So we can understand and apply this saying as for why believers are not always led to preach the gospel to those who do not want to hear it.

Matthew 7: 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

So He knows who would receive Him to have the gospel preached unto them because they are seeking Him from those that do not.

 

[Episkopos]

God knows those who seek Him from those that do not. That is God having foreknowledge of all who would believe in Him if they knew the gospel.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We see an example of this in His leading in the early church in the Book of Acts about who would receive Him from those not seeking Him at all.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

So we can understand and apply this saying as for why believers are not always led to preach the gospel to those who do not want to hear it.

Matthew 7: 6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you. 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

So He knows who would receive Him to have the gospel preached unto them because they are seeking Him from those that do not.

Naw...even a cup of cold water given to a disciple has value to God. Whoever is not against us is for us. Inasmuch as the righteous help the least of the brethren...they do it to the Lord.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

n example is how some saved believers today identify themselves as a Calvinist. As much as they convey that they are mature in Christ by the knowledge from John Calvin, still, to be identified as a Calvinist is to be carnal.

You are ill informed as to why most people would call themselves a Calvinist. I am what is conisdered a staunch "5 point Calvinist". I believe teh 5 points are the biblical truth! It is simply an identifier of what one would believe in certain areas. Just like one may be called Roman Catholic, Armeniast, Charismatic, Evangelical etc.etc. It is not necessairly who they are following, but an easy way to identify what someone believes concerning certain doctrine.

Avoid creating a tempest in a teapot.

 

[Christ4Me]

Naw...even a cup of cold water given to a disciple has value to God.

Not sure what it is you are disagreeing with, but even a cup of water given to the little ones, those that have gone astray that are His, will not lose its reward.

Whoever is not against us is for us. Inasmuch as the righteous help the least of the brethren...they do it to the Lord.

I agree but to the unbelievers that do not want to hear it, best to leave a "calling card" for when they do & wait on the Lord praying for them until then.

 

[Christ4Me]

You are ill informed as to why most people would call themselves a Calvinist. I am what is conisdered a staunch "5 point Calvinist". I believe teh 5 points are the biblical truth! It is simply an identifier of what one would believe in certain areas. Just like one may be called Roman Catholic, Armeniast, Charismatic, Evangelical etc.etc. It is not necessairly who they are following, but an easy way to identify what someone believes concerning certain doctrine.

Avoid creating a tempest in a teapot.

Just explain how this is not applicable?

"New believers can be seen as babes in Christ and thus carnal still.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

An example is how some saved believers today identify themselves as a Calvinist. As much as they convey that they are mature in Christ by the knowledge from John Calvin, still, to be identified as a Calvinist is to be carnal.

History noted that John Calvin supported the execution of a heretic & yet John 16:1-3 would judge that action as being done by those who did not know Him nor the Father."

I do not see how you can avoid this correction.

And would it behoove anyone that not everything Calvin has taught cannot be reproved by scriptures when it can?

Better to identify as His disciple by abiding in Him in His words rather than be identified by the name of a supposed follower.

I believe any verse like Paul said be a follower of me, is to set the example of being a follower of Jesus. Hence be His disciple; and not Paul's. If Paul went astray, they have His words in following Him by. So it is with any Christian leader.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

In the Book of Revelation, a person is identified by a church by its location but not every assembly or believer in that location holds to the same doctrine as the case was for the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25.

Nowadays, not even the name of the denomination is consistent with the original stance of that denomination any more as Baptist do come off as Pentecostal/Charismatic even. Seems being a disciple of Jesus Christ in these latter days is required for others to see our faith in Jesus Christ clearly.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Could you expand on this, please? (And I realize this is a somewhat open-ended question.) How does one enter into and abide in Christ? And what does that mean?

Nobody asked me but that’s never stopped me before!
Abide means to remain fixed in a state. The way I currently understand it is that He always faithfully remains in me but I do not always remain in trust in Him. I stumble and fall out of trust sometimes. (Worry, for instance, rather than remaining/abiding in trust.)
If I can’t remain firm in trust about what He has said about earthly things, He can’t tell me about heavenly things.
One verse says, Unless your faith (trust) is firm, I cannot make you stand firm.
Another translation of it says, If you will not believe, surely you will not be established.
Another really good verse - after you have struggled/suffered for a while, I will strengthen, confirm and establish you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Just explain how this is not applicable?

"New believers can be seen as babes in Christ and thus carnal still.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

An example is how some saved believers today identify themselves as a Calvinist. As much as they convey that they are mature in Christ by the knowledge from John Calvin, still, to be identified as a Calvinist is to be carnal.

History noted that John Calvin supported the execution of a heretic & yet John 16:1-3 would judge that action as being done by those who did not know Him nor the Father."

I do not see how you can avoid this correction.

And would it behoove anyone that not everything Calvin has taught cannot be reproved by scriptures when it can?

Better to identify as His disciple by abiding in Him in His words rather than be identified by the name of a supposed follower.

I believe any verse like Paul said be a follower of me, is to set the example of being a follower of Jesus. Hence be His disciple; and not Paul's. If Paul went astray, they have His words in following Him by. So it is with any Christian leader.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.... 26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

In the Book of Revelation, a person is identified by a church by its location but not every assembly or believer in that location holds to the same doctrine as the case was for the church at Thyatira in Revelation 2:18-25.

Nowadays, not even the name of the denomination is consistent with the original stance of that denomination any more as Baptist do come off as Pentecostal/Charismatic even. Seems being a disciple of Jesus Christ in these latter days is required for others to see our faith in Jesus Christ clearly.

Well you are making a mountain out of a grain of sand!

If someone isentifies himself as a disciple of John Calvin, that is different. but in all theological circles I am aware of, (as we are using calvin here) when one says they are a 5 point calvinist, they are not identifying as a calvinsit, but that they believe in the five biblical truths Calvin expounded in one of His writings.

Just like if someone asks what church I go to, I tell them a Baptist church. For99.99% of people, these are simply identifiers as to what they believe or where they worship. All follow Christ for teh most part. But I would agree with you in that if one follows all of Calvins writings above Scripture- they are carnal. Otherwise when one says they are a calvinist in a theological discussion they are simply saying they believe in the biblical doctrines encapsulated by the acronym TULIP.

It is that simple. Paul even mocked those in Corinth who seemed to want to appear more spiritual when they crowed "I am of christ".

 

[Christ4Me]

Well you are making a mountain out of a grain of sand!

If someone identifies himself as a disciple of John Calvin, that is different.

I do not see Paul addressing those who say they are of Paul as a disciple of Paul, but that they were identifying with Paul.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I believe the point is the dissension created by these identification. There is a dissension between Calvinism and Arminianism, right?

Would there be a progression in those discussions if they cease to pick a side and prove or reprove both sides in being His disciple?

but in all theological circles I am aware of, (as we are using calvin here) when one says they are a 5 point calvinist, they are not identifying as a calvinsit, but that they believe in the five biblical truths Calvin expounded in one of His writings.

Okay. Not sure if that is universally understood since I did not. Since we are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, should not those discussions be proving both sides rather than one against the other? Otherwise, each side is subverted and will ignore scripture as reproof.

Just like if someone asks what church I go to, I tell them a Baptist church. For99.99% of people, these are simply identifiers as to what they believe or where they worship. All follow Christ for teh most part. But I would agree with you in that if one follows all of Calvins writings above Scripture- they are carnal. Otherwise when one says they are a calvinist in a theological discussion they are simply saying they believe in the biblical doctrines encapsulated by the acronym TULIP.

I reckon believers should clarify their position then.

It is that simple. Paul even mocked those in Corinth who seemed to want to appear more spiritual when they crowed "I am of christ".

That was not the message here. If we read on, we are all supposed to say I of Christ because we were water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

I believe that was the message and so I do not believe those who profess that I of Christ was alluding they were more spiritual but because we were all water baptized in Jesus's name, is why there should be no division as every one should be saying I of Christ as all the same in His eyes.

 

[ScottA]

New believers can be seen as babes in Christ and thus carnal still.

1 Corinthians 3:1And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

An example is how some saved believers today identify themselves as a Calvinist. As much as they convey that they are mature in Christ by the knowledge from John Calvin, still, to be identified as a Calvinist is to be carnal.

History noted that John Calvin supported the execution of a heretic & yet John 16:1-3 would judge that action as being done by those who did not know Him nor the Father.

John 16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Excommunication is all Jesus taught for catching a brother in a trespass who refuses to repent in spite of the scripture's correction by the whole church in speaking the same thing & holding to the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Therefore, we are not to be identified as disciples of John Calvin but disciples of Jesus Christ. There are many believers being carnal identifying themselves as a Calvinist and yet in spite of being carnal, they are still considered babes in Christ; hence saved.

Course there are different degrees of being carnal by which one can reap corruption & defile the temple of God that is our physical bodies, but there is such a thing as a carnal Christian and they are still saved, but not following Him as His disciples in one form of carnality or another for why saved believers that know better are to correct them or withdraw from fellowship when refusing correction in the hopes it will lead them to repentance.

So when the Bridegroom excommunicates saved believers not found abiding in Him, and get left behind as denied to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven which is to be held in sincerity & truth and not in wickedness, they are still saved, but becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House for not being ready by Him helping them to depart from iniquity.

This is why we are to trust Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd and not the church as we are to prove everything by Him in regards to church's teachings & even your Christian leaders'.

I would not consider this a Calvinist issue, but rather an issue of all those in the church who place a heavy burden on any who are just learning of Christ and the gospel. It is an offense to God, Him having drawn them in love, to not have them also met and welcomed into the church in love.

The words of truth do go on to more serious matters--indeed they do; and so they should be preached and taught...but first to nurture and care for, to lift up and to edify. And we should know better than to "offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:2

 

[Christ4Me]

I would not consider this a Calvinist issue, but rather an issue of all those in the church who place a heavy burden on any who are just learning of Christ and the gospel. It is an offense to God, Him having drawn them in love, to not have them also met and welcomed into the church in love.

The words of truth do go on to more serious matters--indeed they do; and so they should be preached and taught...but first to nurture and care for, to lift up and to edify. And we should know better than to "offend one of these little ones." Luke 17:2

It is as you say and the point of the message that believers should refrain from saying there is no such thing as a carnal believer and thus concluding that they are not saved and wind up despising them without correcting them in Christ's love.

But for whatever the reason that they are refusing to repent after all that correction, even by the church, then excommunication is required to lead them to repentance, reminding them that they are still saved but admonishing them as brothers.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

 

[ScottA]

Could you expand on this, please? (And I realize this is a somewhat open-ended question.) How does one enter into and abide in Christ? And what does that mean?

We abide in Christ by first hearing Him knock at the door and answer, allowing Him to abide in us.

It is only Him in us that makes it possible for us to abide in Him. We must be fully given over to Him, a complete surrender--which is us laying down our life, that He may take it up again--just as He did. This is what is meant, that we should follow Him. This is to be born [again] of the spirit of God, in whom we abide: we in the Son, and the Son in the Father, all in all, as One.

 

[Christ4Me]

We abide in Christ by first hearing Him knock at the door and answer, allowing Him to abide in us.

It is only Him in us that makes it possible for us to abide in Him. We must be fully given over to Him, a complete surrender--which is us laying down our life, that He may take it up again--just as He did. This is what is meant, that we should follow Him. This is to be born [again] of the spirit of God, in whom we abide: we in the Son, and the Son in the Father, all in all, as One.

And as much as we rely on Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him, we can rely on Him to help those whom have gone astray.

Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted. 2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. 7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. 9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Not sure how to correct a church when they do not want to hear it other than to withdraw.

 

[ScottA]

It is as you say and the point of the message that believers should refrain from saying there is no such thing as a carnal believer and thus concluding that they are not saved and wind up despising them without correcting them in Christ's love.

But for whatever the reason that they are refusing to repent after all that correction, even by the church, then excommunication is required to lead them to repentance, reminding them that they are still saved but admonishing them as brothers.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

2 Thessalonians 3:1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3 But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4 And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

It is that time of the Father's choosing where one lays down the life of that old man of flesh and blood, not literally, but in heart, that they gain life again by the spiritual resurrection of Christ--this is that day and hour which no one knows, not even the Son, but the Father only. This is salvation, the gift of eternal life.

But when do we (or God) say that life begins? ...At conception. But we must then be born. And the same is also true of being born [again] of the spirit of God.