How would you know anything about a personal relationship had not a church or theologian put it in your mind?
Charles Spurgeon's Sanity Litmus Test (are you insane?)
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bbyrd009
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well, but we generalize from our own experience. Iow it is just as valid to say that a seeker was doing fine on their own, had they not moved God's domain in their minds to "church," and just picked up a Bible! We turn a personal relationship into a religious one, usually.
Ro.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
2:11 For there is no partiality with God.12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
What does the above have to do with a personal relationship the way it's understood today??
The above is referring to the fact that God has always been perceivable to them that care to perceive.
The concept of a personal relationship with God did not exist till recently.
I'd say the 20th century.
Before this God was known as the Almighty creator of heaven and Earth who had to be worshipped and obeyed.
As He does today also.
After years of study and with bible in hand, you can write a post like this??? Amazing!!! No wonder Paul said a woman should be quiet in church
How is it understood today that is so different than ever before? God has certainly never changed. Men who have known God have changed and/or been changed, but there have always been some who had a personal relationship with God.
The words may have been changed, but the concept certainly not. God has always had at least a remnant on His side. Was Hannah's communication with God from which came the prophet Samuel so very different that the communication of a sincere believer in God today? I would say not.
"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." James 2:23
Did not Abraham have a personal relationship with God as His friend? Are none among men today friends of God? What friend does not have a personal relationship with his friend?
"The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun." Ecc 1:9
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bbyrd009
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And David and Moses and Joshua and Caleb etc, etc and innumerable others whom we are not given details of. It is just mind boggling how we can study the bible and Gods creation for years and still be so ignorant.
bbyrd009
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well, years for you maybe, but about the next person who knows? And of course no one gets a list of the things they are still ignorant of, right?
I have no idea what all i am ignorant of.
Hmm, an interesting juxtaposition with hypocrisy there, although ignorance is not hypocrisy.
If we are observant it does not take many post from a person to learn a lot about them.
I could give you a list of the things I have been ignorant of and from that predict what remains
Hmm, what was that signature I saw here recently? Something about, if you don't agree with someone, you can always revert to calling them names, cool man
Thanks for calling me ignorant.
So nice of you.
How about showing me where in the NT Jesus said we're supposed to have a "personal relationship" with Him?
I know the words won't be there...show me the concept.
Thanks.
"Where were you o man when I created....."
That doesn't sound personal.
That sounds like God almighty.
Job 38:4 and on.
I find it amazing that after so many posts I'm not understood.
Which is the reason I'm no longer posting but just being courteous and answering.
And the name calling is unbearable and should not be allowed on a serious Christian site.
Richard_oti
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For everyone reading along...including the moderator.
This will show how a thought does not follow through, and who is truely ignorant here...:
Post 396:
jimd:
As far as my salvation goes, what any theologian or church believes matters not a whit , only my personal relationship with God counts for anything.
Post 401:
GodsGrace:
How would you know anything about a personal relationship had not a church or theologian put it in your mind?
post 403:
jimd:
Ro.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
2:11 For there is no partiality with God.12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
post 404:
GodsGrace:
What does the above have to do with a personal relationship the way it's understood today??
The above is referring to the fact that God has always been perceivable to them that care to perceive.
The concept of a personal relationship with God did not exist till recently.
I'd say the 20th century.
Before this God was known as the Almighty creator of heaven and Earth who had to be worshipped and obeyed.
As He does today also.
post 405:
jimd:
After years of study and with bible in hand, you can write a post like this??? Amazing!!! No wonder Paul said a woman should be quiet in church
post 408:
jimd:
And David and Moses and Joshua and Caleb etc, etc and innumerable others whom we are not given details of. It is just mind boggling how we can study the bible and Gods creation for years and still be so ignorant.
So how did we go from having a conversation about how things are learned from a church or a theologian about a personal savior, since it is not learned from the bible??
Billy Graham used this term first in the 1950's.
We can be friends and sons of God, but an understanding of Him as a personal savior did NOT always exist.
Maybe if some history would be studied before calling others ignorant, it would help others along to learn some things.
There's much to learn and it doesn't happen by having a closed mind.
Ooops. Was that an insult? Guess it doesn't matter here...
This will show how a thought does not follow through, and who is truely ignorant here...:
Post 396:
jimd:
As far as my salvation goes, what any theologian or church believes matters not a whit , only my personal relationship with God counts for anything.
Post 401:
GodsGrace:
How would you know anything about a personal relationship had not a church or theologian put it in your mind?
post 403:
jimd:
Ro.1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
2:11 For there is no partiality with God.12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
post 404:
GodsGrace:
What does the above have to do with a personal relationship the way it's understood today??
The above is referring to the fact that God has always been perceivable to them that care to perceive.
The concept of a personal relationship with God did not exist till recently.
I'd say the 20th century.
Before this God was known as the Almighty creator of heaven and Earth who had to be worshipped and obeyed.
As He does today also.
post 405:
jimd:
After years of study and with bible in hand, you can write a post like this??? Amazing!!! No wonder Paul said a woman should be quiet in church
post 408:
jimd:
And David and Moses and Joshua and Caleb etc, etc and innumerable others whom we are not given details of. It is just mind boggling how we can study the bible and Gods creation for years and still be so ignorant.
So how did we go from having a conversation about how things are learned from a church or a theologian about a personal savior, since it is not learned from the bible??
Billy Graham used this term first in the 1950's.
We can be friends and sons of God, but an understanding of Him as a personal savior did NOT always exist.
Maybe if some history would be studied before calling others ignorant, it would help others along to learn some things.
There's much to learn and it doesn't happen by having a closed mind.
Ooops. Was that an insult? Guess it doesn't matter here...
My original post was not to you and neither was the one you are addressing here. Did you not notice I said we when referring to the ignorant?
You really don't see the concept??? Why limit it to the NT??? Its in both From beginning to end!
Billy was just a human being like us and I remember him saying, one of his deepest regrets was having not studied the bible more deeply which indicates how humble and ignorant he considered himself.
PS: How upset you are over the term personal savior tells me a lot about you. How can we pray to and be a friend of someone we do not have a personal relationship with???
Are you never understood? Do you always understand the other side of the issue involved? We all stand on what we believe, if we really believe it.
As the name calling, I do agree, but a problem with owners and moderators is that they also are people. They may work hard to do the right thing, but even then their own bias is likely to show through. I served once as a moderator on a busy forum with lots of problems. It is a hard position to be in when you find yourself going against one or more of your own convictions in order to properly apply the rules of the forum. It was the reason I quit that job.
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bbyrd009
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well, if we just go to Job's confession, "my ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen you" etc, ignoring for the moment all of the CogDis that will generate when other Scripture is considered, imo the "personal" nature of Job's relationship is a little more apparent, even if i grant you that it is still kind of obscure, i guess so some people can believe in a Capricious God Who tortures righteous people for no apparent reason if they want, the ignorers of Job's confessions; plural, iow.
Or to put this another way, what sins did Job confess to?
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