Christ as the firstborn

[Insight]

You have some good thoughts there. And where I might agree with Insight is that I believe it is possible that Jesus had flesh that like ours that is part of Adam's flesh which is irrecoverably under the penalty of death upon Adam, that flesh having been received through the connection to the flesh in Mary.

However, if that be true, Jesus proved that wearing imperfect flesh is not something that of itself dooms us to have to commit sin in our spirit.

Is that true that Jesus flesh was imperfect? I have to be quite honest with you and tell you I do not know. I am stupid on that point and all I can do for the moment is guess.

Do you see though what I am saying? (1) That if it is true, that Jesus did receive the imperfect flesh through Mary (and it seems as he would have to) (2) that his not allowing that flesh to dominate so as to cause his spirit to obey the will of that flesh (3) proves that just wearing imperfect flesh is not an excuse for us to continue on sinning?

That is why I keep saying we cannot afford to look at it as though we are doomed to have to sin. We have it in us especially with the help of God's spirit to break that slavery of our spirit to our flesh and return our spirits servitude back to God's spirit where it was originally intended to swear its allegiance.

But wow, my own post here fills me with questions.

Vengle,

How was Yahweh going to uphold His righteousnes while defeating the very power which held all mankind captive?

Within these verses is the key to your understanding.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, Jesus himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. (Hebrews 2:14-15)

You must spend some time in here to meditate upon the divine view of Jesus and his nature.

Only here will truth be revealed.

What has the power of death Vengle?

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Vengle,

How was Yahweh going to uphold His righteousnes while defeating the very power which held all mankind captive?

Within these verses is the key to your understanding.

Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, Jesus himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. (Hebrews 2:14-15)

You must spend some time in here to meditate upon the divine view of Jesus and his nature.

Only here will truth be revealed.

What has the power of death Vengle?

Insight

Sin has the power of death.

wait a second?

Jesus now has the power of both life and death.

Jesus had to defeat sin to defeat death.

And it does not seem he could have done that if he were sheltered from sin.

I really believe that he did wear the original Adam's imperfect flesh, especially in light of the verse you just highlighted.

The verse you gave from Hebrews and there are two other verses which may support what I was musing in post #320.

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

and the second one has escaped me here for a minute. What was it?

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

 

[Insight]

Sin has the power of death.

wait a second?

Jesus now has the power of both life and death.

Jesus had to defeat sin to defeat death.

Rom 6:23 provides the answer but still you must go back to Heb 2:14,15 to better understand why Jesus was raised out of the fallen stock of Abraham.

Read Heb 4:15 and ask what nature did he have?
Read Rom 5:12 What nature passed onto Jesus?

There are two reasons why we die?

1.
2.

One applied to Jesus and the other did not!

When you have answered these two reasons who was responsible for that which applied to Jesus?

I can see you are putting it together!

This is the at-one-ment in Christ.
Insight

 

[Vengle]

Rom 6:23 provides the answer but still you must go back to Heb 2:14,15 to better understand why Jesus was raised out of the fallen stock of Abraham.

Read Heb 4:15 and ask what nature did he have?
Read Rom 5:12 What nature passed onto Jesus?

There are two reasons why we die?

1.
2.

One applied to Jesus and the other did not!

When you have answered these two reasons who was responsible for that which applied to Jesus?

Insight

1. Adam's sin

2. Our personal sin

Adam's sin applied to Jesus as he wore Adam's flesh as we.

But would he have been a blemished lamb then?

or, no, because God's grace separates away from Adam's sin?

That is a deep question.

 

[Insight]

1. Adam's sin Rom 5:12

2. Our personal sin Rom 6:23

Adam's sin applied to Jesus as he wore Adam's flesh as we.

Yes Vengle!

just as sin came into the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin..

Now Vengle if God made Jesus to be sin for us 2 Cor 5:21

Could God hold Jesus responsible for Adams sin and it affects in his nature?

Why not?

 

[Vengle]

Yes Vengle!

just as sin came into the world through one man (Adam), and death through sin..

Now Vengle if God made Jesus to be sin for us 2 Cor 5:21

Could God hold Jesus responsible for Adams sin and it affects in his nature?

Why not?

"Could God hold Jesus responsible for Adams sin and it affects in his nature?"

No, because Jesus committed none of his own sin to merit it.

 

[Insight]

"Could God hold Jesus responsible for Adams sin and it affects in his nature?"

No, because Jesus committed none of his own sin to merit it.

Precisely.

Now lets take this a little deeper shall we.

If you say he shared our nature did Yahweh consider his nature clean or unclean?

 

[Vengle]

Precisely.

Now lets take this a little deeper shall we.

If you say he shared our nature did Yahweh consider his nature clean or unclean?

Oh, I think i am starting to see what you are driving at.

Yahweh would have to view him as unclean from the standpoint of that nature.

I think we avoid this kind of pondering because we feel like we are almost committing blasphemy even to consider such things. that is where we have to have that perfect love that tosses out all fear.

 

[Nomad]

Adam's sin applied to Jesus as he wore Adam's flesh as we.

But would he have been a blemished lamb then?

The answer is yes. Ding, ding, ding. The prize goes to the man with the astute question. Your friend is a Gnostic to the core Vengle. His objections are philosophical presuppositions that he allows to trump the teaching of Scripture. I hope you realize that sooner than later.

 

[Insight]

Oh, I think i am starting to see what you are driving at.

Yahweh would have to view him as unclean from the standpoint of that nature.

I think we avoid this kind of pondering because we feel like we are almost committing blasphemy even to consider such things.

Ok, now how did Jesus enter the Holy of Holies which the priest did once per year? Remembering Jesus did this only once!

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Hebrews 13:20)

How did his Father cleanse His Son?

 

[Vengle]

Ok, now how did Jesus enter the Holy of Holies which the priest did once per year? Remembering Jesus did this only once!

Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Hebrews 13:20)

How did his Father cleanse His Son?

By law? In that Jesus fulfilled that Law?

 

[Insight]

Abraham in the divinely-commanded offering of Isaac. The divine covenant of promise to Abraham before he had a son was this:

"All the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever" (Gen. 13:15).

Paul tells us that this ever-living seed is Christ (Gal. 3:16), of whom Isaac his progenitor was but a type.

Yet when Isaac the child of promise was born, God commanded Abraham to offer him for a burnt offering on Mount Moriah (Gen. 22). Abraham obeyed, being full of faith in God's purpose of resurrection (Heb. 11:17,18,19; Jas. 2:21,22).

And when the angel arrested Abraham's hand when he was in the act of slaying Isaac, the promised Seed was figuratively given back by resurrection, a striking foreshadowing of what actually happened in after times to Jesus Christ in the same place "by the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

By whose blood did Jesus enter the Holy of Holies?

Heb 9:12

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

 

[Vengle]

Abraham in the divinely-commanded offering of Isaac. The divine covenant of promise to Abraham before he had a son was this:

"All the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever" (Gen. 13:15).

Paul tells us that this ever-living seed is Christ (Gal. 3:16), of whom Isaac his progenitor was but a type.

Yet when Isaac the child of promise was born, God commanded Abraham to offer him for a burnt offering on Mount Moriah (Gen. 22). Abraham obeyed, being full of faith in God's purpose of resurrection (Heb. 11:17,18,19; Jas. 2:21,22).

And when the angel arrested Abraham's hand when he was in the act of slaying Isaac, the promised Seed was figuratively given back by resurrection, a striking foreshadowing of what actually happened in after times to Jesus Christ in the same place "by the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb. 13:20).

By whose blood did Jesus enter the Holy of Holies?

Heb 9:12

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

His own blood.

Whose blood? Who is "his"?

 

[Insight]

For Nomad

Paul says of Christ "it is of necessity that this man (Jesus) have somewhat also to offer" (Heb. 8:3).

Nomad says of his christ, that he was under no necessity to offer himself! But might have refused to die, and
entered into eternal life alone.

Clearly Nomads Christ is not Pauls Christ whom it was a necessity that he should offer up himself, for the purging of his own nature — first, from the uncleanness of death, that having by his own blood obtained eternal redemption (Heb. 9:12), he might be able afterwards to save to the uttermost, them that come unto God by him? (Heb. 7:25).

This is the only truth which can set a man free.

His own blood.

Whose blood? Who is "his"?

Matt 26:28

 

[Vengle]

For Nomad

Paul says of Christ "it is of necessity that this man (Jesus) have somewhat also to offer" (Heb. 8:3).

Nomad says of his christ, that he was under no necessity to offer himself! But might have refused to die, and
entered into eternal life alone.

Clearly Nomads Christ is not Pauls Christ whom it was a necessity that he should offer up himself, for the purging of his own nature — first, from the uncleanness of death, that having by his own blood obtained eternal redemption (Heb. 9:12), he might be able afterwards to save to the uttermost, them that come unto God by him? (Heb. 7:25).

This is the only truth which can set a man free.



Matt 26:28

I am following you all but for how if Jesus' body was in any way imperfect his blood could have that power?

Now, the Law made it a point to emphasize that "the life is in the blood".

Is there a connection?

Is the answer in what Paul said, that if a man could keep that Law he could live by that Law?

Galatians 3:12 "And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them."

 

[Insight]

I am following you all but for how if Jesus' body was in any way imperfect his blood could have that power?

In crucifying His son on the cross fufilling morally And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24)

And how was God able to accept his blood?

Why do you think the grave could not hold Jesus like it does us?

From the very beginning, he experienced in himself those results that came by Adamic disobedience. This is sufficiently manifest in the apostolic testimony that he was the subject of "crying and tears" (Heb. 5:7), a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (Isa. 53:3), made in all things like to his brethren of Adam's fallen stock (Heb. 2:16,17), and finally crucified through weakness (2 Cor. 13)

Exactly when did God triumph over inherited death?


Rom. 6:6NET

 

[Vengle]

In crucifying His son on the cross fufilling morally And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Galatians 5:24)

And how was God able to accept his blood?

Why do you think the grave could not hold Jesus like it does us?

From the very beginning, he experienced in himself those results that came by Adamic disobedience. This is sufficiently manifest in the apostolic testimony that he was the subject of "crying and tears" (Heb. 5:7), a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (Isa. 53:3), made in all things like to his brethren of Adam's fallen stock (Heb. 2:16,17), and finally crucified through weakness (2 Cor. 13)

Exactly when did God triumph over inherited death?


Rom. 6:6NET

Paul said we judge that if one man died so then all men died, obviously referencing the first Adam as he compares to Jesus.

I feel like my brain is imploding. :lol:

"Why do you think the grave could not hold Jesus like it does us?"

Because Jesus had the Father's love by faithfulness.

 

[Insight]

Jesus was made of "the same flesh and blood" as his brethren Heb 2:14,15, "in all things like unto" them (Heb. 2:14, 17). By being "made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4) he was "made sin" (2 Cor. 5:21), and thus when on the cross "God ... condemned sin in the flesh" of "His own son" (Rom. 8:3). It was this "sin" which Christ "put away by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26). At birth "sin in the flesh" "had the power of death" over him, but "through death" he "destroyed" its power (Heb. 2:14) over himself; and when he rose it could be said of him, prior to his change into Spirit — "he that hath died is justified from sin" (Rom. 6:7 NET).

Like Jesus Vengle, it can now be said of those who are baptised into him that they have been "made free from the law of sin and death" (Rom.
8:2); when we enter the grave it cannot hold us.

Here is the irony Vengle.

The greatest power known to mankind is sin and its dominion over us!

Precisely where did God decide to have His victory?

 

[Vengle]

Jesus was made of "the same flesh and blood" as his brethren Heb 2:14,15, "in all things like unto" them (Heb. 2:14, 17). By being "made of a woman" (Gal. 4:4) he was "made sin" (2 Cor. 5:21), and thus when on the cross "God ... condemned sin in the flesh" of "His own son" (Rom. 8:3). It was this "sin" which Christ "put away by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26). At birth "sin in the flesh" "had the power of death" over him, but "through death" he "destroyed" its power (Heb. 2:14) over himself; and when he rose it could be said of him, prior to his change into Spirit — "he that hath died is justified from sin" (Rom. 6:7 NET).

Was it not Jesus faithfulness that fulfilled that Old Law?

Wearing the imperfect flesh of man which was condemned to die and yet proving that he "the life that was in the blood" was unworthy to die, would that not judge sin as itself committing sin by unjustly taking the life of the innocent?

Was it not the sin in man that killed Jesus?

 

[Insight]

Paul said we judge that if one man died so then all men died, obviously referencing the first Adam as he compares to Jesus.

I feel like my brain is imploding. :lol:

"Why do you think the grave could not hold Jesus like it does us?"

Because Jesus had the Father's love by faithfulness.

Because there is only ONE resurrection Vengle - There will only ever be ONE resurrection my friend!


The grave couldn’t hold Jesus because he destroyed the law that works in his and our members!


Whose resurrection are we baptised into?