Christ as the firstborn

[Vengle]

Because there is only ONE resurrection Vengle - There will only ever be ONE resurrection my friend!


The grave couldn’t hold Jesus because he destroyed the law that works in our members!


Whose resurrection are we baptised into?

Per Roman 6 we are baptized into Jesus' death.

That baptism is the baptism with fire isn't it, where we pick up our stauros and follow after him enduring as he did?

1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

We know all man's work will be burned and proved as to its quality and durability.

We must let that trying of our works take place in Christ following his lead or we do not benefit from Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:11 ¶For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 ¶Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


We may in that day now. It may have come as a thief.

 

[Insight]

Was it not Jesus faithfulness that fulfilled that Old Law?

Wearing the imperfect flesh of man which was condemned to die and yet proving that he "the life that was in the blood" was unworthy to die, would that not judge sin as itself committing sin by unjustly taking the life of the innocent?

Was it not the sin in man that killed Jesus?

In this Yahweh was able to uphold all His rightesouness (and principles) by declaring sin inaffective in his Son. The power that held His children had been removed in the broken body of His son through faith.

John 8:29 “he always did those things that were pleasing to his Father”. When he died, "he (Jesus) died unto sin once" Rom 6:10. But God (His Father) raised Jesus as a result of his obedience, "being raised from the dead, he dieth no more: death hath no more dominion over him" (Rom. 6:9,10).

"Wherefore he is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Heb 7:25).

So we rejoice when we read with Paul in Rom 8:33

"Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth; who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea, rather, that is risen again, who is ever at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us".


Insight

 

[Insight]

Per Roman 6 we are baptized into Jesus' death.

That baptism is the baptism with fire isn't it, where we pick up our stauros and follow after him enduring as he did?

1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

We know all man's work will be burned and proved as to its quality and durability.

We must let that trying of our works take place in Christ following his lead or we do not benefit from Christ.

Yes the baptism which Jesus underwent was one of great fire as per Luke 12:50NET.

Study the humanity of Jesus Vengle and you will grow to know a far deeper man of sorrows.

Insight

Its 1:00am in the morning.

Must get to bed.

Good night all.

God bless

 

[Vengle]

That seems very clear Insight.

I yet would like to meditate on it.

 

[Insight]

I will leave you with this final thought:

God in raising his son through the blood of the everlasting covenant and resurrecting him to glorious divine nature, he set aside the weakness of the flesh in all of its manifestations, and so triumphed over sin and death, that the Father "hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given him" (John 17:2).

This is worthy of great meditation.

Insight

 

[Nomad]

Nomad says of his christ, that he was under no necessity to offer himself! But might have refused to die, and
entered into eternal life alone.

Where did I say any such thing, Insight? You must be getting pretty desperate seeing that you are now resorting to putting words in my mouth that I never uttered.

 

[Nomad]

Here's the bottom line, Insight. We can argue all day long about the exact nature of fallen and unfallen "flesh." The Biblical facts remain the same regarding Christ.

Joh 1:1 . . .and the Word was God. . .

Joh 1:14 . . .And the Word became flesh. . .

1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

You would do well to accept what Scripture clearly says and get rid of your Gnostic reasoning and presuppositions.

 

[veteran]

Veteran’s claim of me being a Gnostic is incorrect and way off beam.

I didn't say your were a Gnostic.

 

[veteran]

The same way the sinless Adam suffered temptation before the fall. There was no sin nature before the fall. The difference between Adam and Christ was that Adam succumbed to temptation where Jesus did not. Again, you assume that "flesh" is inherently tainted, fallen or unfallen. This idea of yours is Gnostic to the core. It certainly isn't Biblical. I don't say this to insult you. I say this because you need to know that you're headed down the wrong path.

The 1-2nd century Gnostics DID TRY to claim the flesh equals sin in their philosophy of angels and such, but the whole gist of their false doctrines were actually about seeking perfection in the flesh, as a means to be released from it. The Gnostics weren't even the originators of that idea, it came from eastern paganism, like Buddhism with seeking the state of Nirvana to be released from their supposed 'wheel of rebirth' (i.e., reincarnation).

That was the Gnostic basis of their denying that Jesus was God having died on the cross for sin, because they wanted to assert their 'own' way of salvation through a supposed ability for everyone doing what Jesus did and be perfected on their own. Still today, modern Gnostics have that kind of philosophy about salvation being obtainable by becoming spiritually perfect like what Buddha was trying to do. This is why the Gnostics treat our Lord Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Zoroaster, etc., as only prophets, leaving space for everyone to become a prophet-adept.


1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(KJV)

To Apostle Paul, the flesh ("natural body") represented "corruption", and the "spiritual body" represented "incorruption".

So regardless of the condition of Adam and Eve's flesh before the fall, the flesh ("natural body") was already condemned to perish according to God's Plan of Salvation already ordained to come prior to Adam.

 

[Insight]

Here's the bottom line, Insight. We can argue all day long about the exact nature of fallen and unfallen "flesh." The Biblical facts remain the same regarding Christ.

Joh 1:1 . . .and the Word was God. . .

Joh 1:14 . . .And the Word became flesh. . .

1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

You would do well to accept what Scripture clearly says and get rid of your Gnostic reasoning and presuppositions.

The bottom line as you call it appears to be your inability to define the nature of Christ.

To all,

Nomad’s theology cannot commit to a "nature of fallen or unfallen "flesh" simply because the Trinity utterly destroys the atoning principles at work in the offering of Christ. There is not one divine principle within the true atonement which remains intact after you apply Trinitarian doctrine.

Nomad here in his sheepish reply knows how futile it is to venture into the nature of Christ because the cross of Christ is foolishness to him. 1 Cor 1:18 as he continues to hold firmly to Greek doctrine.

You know Vengle the sad reality here is Nomad has no way of atoning for his sinful nature because he doesn’t believe Jesus overcame the flesh and the destroyed the power of sin with his body.

Where does this place Nomad at the judgement?

I didn't say your were a Gnostic.

Thanks for clarifying.

Where did I say any such thing, Insight? You must be getting pretty desperate seeing that you are now resorting to putting words in my mouth that I never uttered.

You explained away Heb 5:2 and denied in your silence that Jesus was required to offer for himself as High Priest. In this your teaching went against the Apostle Paul though you will not repent as evident thus far.

For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: therefore it is of necessity that this man (Jesus) have something also to offer. Heb 8:3

What did he offer Nomad?

Here are some passage to help you into truth:

1. The High Priest entered the most holy once every year, with blood, to sprinkle on the mercy seat (Heb 9:7; Lev 16:14,15).
2. This is typical of Christ: Heb 9:12; 10:19; 12:24; Eph 2:13; 1Pe 1:2; Rev 1:5.

What exactly did Jesus offer and why?

 

[Insight]

Nomad if you know your Bible you will take me to Hebrews 7 and convey exactly what was offered.

If and when you find it Nomad I am sure Venlge's eyes will pop out of his head when this cements what you have denied all along.

Jesus cannot be God!

 

[Insight]

To Apostle Paul, the flesh ("natural body") represented "corruption", and the "spiritual body" represented "incorruption".

So regardless of the condition of Adam and Eve's flesh before the fall, the flesh ("natural body") was already condemned to perish according to God's Plan of Salvation already ordained to come prior to Adam.

Paul refers to the natural body as sin's flesh.

I think weymouth really captured the atoning work in Rom 8:3

For what was impossible to the Law--powerless as it was because it acted through frail humanity--God effected. Sending His own Son in a body like that of sinful human nature and as a sacrifice for sin, He (Yahweh) pronounced sentence upon sin in human nature; Rom 8:3NET

This will answer many of Vengles questions in the why Jesus must need possess a defiled, fallen, unclean nature.

Insight

To Nomad

Are you going through Hebrews 7 Nomad?

Looking forward to that verse and your exposition.

 

[Insight]

Nomad.

Hebrews 7 is not differcult to find here is a link Hebrews 7

Simple reading will reveal this truth.

Here is the question once more:

What exactly did Jesus offer and why?

 

[Insight]

John 13:30?

 

[Insight]

In Hebrews 7 is the answer to the question being posed.

What exactly did Jesus offer and why?

Like Nicodemus, come out from the shadows of men’s teachings and draw closer to the glorious light!

We are waiting Nomad

 

[Vengle]

It is not at all that we do not have knowledge. It is that for all of us our knowledge exists it piece parts.

I remember when I was a kid and I thought I knew how to do something but an adult would make me stand there for them to explain to me how it should be properly done. It took me quite a number of times of only thinking I had listened before I finally realized that the mistakes I was making were proof that I had not really listened.

We tend to approach things on the basis of what we already know. We have been reinforced to do that by a world that believes in and preaches competition. Thus it has become a deeply embedded habit for us. Competition has created a little subconscious voice in us that tells us we are inferior if we are not good at things, even toward something as being the best at knowing things. And so we tend to clash rather than to benefit from what each other knows to help us all rearrange the order of our knowledge in us to paint a more accurate picture.

This all falls under the realm of humility.

Along the path of learning, it is OK not to know something or to have what we know not ordered in the best way.

Lack of humility will imprison us to that incompleteness, matter not how much we think we know.

Many of us are like the adult who refuses to listen and find that even a child can have increments of wisdom that exceed our own. We would feel inferior to think that could be true.

A man being right in one thing does not make him right in all things. Nor does having knowledge mean we also have wisdom.

 

[Insight]

Very true Vengle. It is not a mere interlectual exercise but a prayful begging for understanding testing and retesting,watching,listening to God through His Word.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Very true Vengle. It is not a mere interlectual exercise but a prayful begging for understanding testing and retesting,watching,listening to God through His Word.

Insight

I read the debate about whether or not the KJV is a good Bible or has too much tampering in it and think to myself that it was only the original inspired writings which were accurate. (If that even be completely true.)

I believe there is great wisdom in Yahweh allowing the error of men to creep into the translations of His Word. I believe we learn a lot from it that we can learn no other way. And it is all hinged upon our humility. We have to work hard for that humility if we are to be able and get through the entanglement of our own wisdom. The more we humble ourselves the more we are able to see.

We have a very wise God in so many ways that it is impossible to name them all off the top of our heads.

 

[Insight]

I read the debate about whether or not the KJV is a good Bible or has too much tampering in it and think to myself that it was only the original inspired writings which were accurate. (If that even be completely true.)

I believe there is great wisdom in Yahweh allowing the error of men to creep into the translations of His Word. I believe we learn a lot from it that we can learn no other way. And it is all hinged upon our humility. We have to work hard for that humility if we are to be able and get through the entanglement of our own wisdom. The more we humble ourselves the more we are able to see.

We have a very wise God in so many ways that it is impossible to name them all off the top of our heads.

So true

I am conscious I have been very firm on Nomad. I wonder how many times he will endure the reality of these truthes and abandon his theology for a living and saving truth.

I tried leading him to Hebrews 7 today, but he walked away.

The reality of Jesus' qualification of High Priest demanded him to be raised out of sin's flesh that Yahweh's Righteous Character is upheld and manifested throughout all the earth.

You may recall I stated Jesus was cleansed through his own blood as it does for all who associate themselves with the firstborn from the dead.

Here is the passage that Nomad could not take me to for obvious reasons.

(Jesus) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this Jesus did once, when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

In what way did Jesus offer for himself? When he clearly was sinless?

How did Jesus benefit from his own sacrifice?

 

[Vengle]

So true

I am conscious I have been very firm on Nomad. I wonder how many times he will endure the reality of these truthes and abandon his theology for a living and saving truth.

I tried leading him to Hebrews 7 today, but he walked away.

The reality of Jesus' qualification of High Priest demanded him to be raised in sin's flesh that Yahweh's Righteous Character is upheld and manifested throughout all the earth.

You may recall I stated Jesus was cleansed through his own blood as it does for all who associate themselves with the firstborn from the dead.

Here is the passage that Nomad could not take me to for obvious reasons.

(Jesus) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this Jesus did once, when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

In what way did Jesus offer himself for his own sins? When he clearly did not have any?

That may be true that he walked away but if you noticed I just stepped away to put a pot of coffee on. :lol: It is difficult to know why they have left.

I was not feeling well today and so have done a lot of sleeping. Now I need a cup of coffee to help me wake up.

One thing we might consider is that faith and love are more important than knowledge to the extent that when we get too detailed we provide more for us to disagree about. You helped me to grasp some finer points of the knowledge that was already in me due to my having cared to be diligent in my studies on my own. That is how the remembrancer also does it. You, as it does, were able to recall to my mind what I already know and assist me to put those pieces of knowledge into a better order whereby I was able to see a better picture.

If anyone has been filled with false knowledge that false knowledge is what comes to the recall and so the same elements as were available to you to work with in me are not there to be worked with in them or at least are there and complicated by that which is falsely called knowledge. I believe there is even a scripture that speaks of that "falsely called knowledge".

That then means our approach must take into consideration the presence of that falsely called knowledge. And we cannot help them to let go of that falsely called knowledge by in effect telling them they are stupid because that is what they think. That is a predicament. Ultimately it will rest upon their bent toward humility even if we speak with the eloquence of the tongue of angels to them.