Christ as the firstborn

[Insight]

That may be true that he walked away but if you noticed I just stepped away to put a pot of coffee on. :lol: It is difficult to know why they have left.

I was not feeling well today and so have done a lot of sleeping. Now I need a cup of coffee to help me wake up.

One thing we might consider is that faith and love are more important than knowledge to the extent that when we get too detailed we provide more for us to disagree about. You helped me to grasp some finer points of the knowledge that was already in me due to my having cared to be diligent in my studies on my own. That is how the remembrancer also does it. You, as it does, were able to recall to my mind what I already know and assist me to put those pieces of knowledge into a better order whereby I was able to see a better picture.

If anyone has been filled with false knowledge that false knowledge is what comes to the recall and so the same elements as were available to you to work with in me are not there to be worked with in them or at least are there and complicated by that which is falsely called knowledge. I believe there is even a scripture that speaks of that "falsely called knowledge".

That then means our approach must take into consideration the presence of that falsely called knowledge. And we cannot help them to let go of that falsely called knowledge by in effect telling them they are stupid because that is what they think. That is a predicament. Ultimately it will rest upon their bent toward humility even if we speak with the eloquence of the tongue of angels to them.

The knowledge you speak of is in the wisdom of this world.

My belief has long been that true Shepherds are only here to warn in these last days - we can plant the seed but Yahweh and the Son give the increase. I just recently been taught this vital lesson.

A colleague at work is coming to an understanding of the truth for the first time and he is growing daily - its something to behold Vengle - watching an unenlightened mind come to the light.

It requires patience and prayer.

Unfortunately Nomad thus far lacks the humility to receive the implanted Word with fear.

But that’s not to say this will always be the case.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

The knowledge you speak of is in the wisdom of this world.

My belief has long been that true Shepherds are only here to warn in these last days - we can plant the seed but Yahweh and the Son give the increase. I just recently been taught this vital lesson.

A colleague at work is coming to an understanding of the truth for the first time and he is growing daily - its something to behold Vengle - watching an unenlightened mind come to the light.

It requires patience and prayer.

Unfortunately Nomad thus far lacks the humility to receive the implanted Word with fear.

But that’s not to say this will always be the case.

Insight

Amen, I agree with you.

That verse I had in mind is the very last couple of verses of 1 Timothy:

20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.

That does not mean so much science as the one that promotes evolution as it does those who through straining at the gnat turn the truth of God's word into a science. And that is what we see in the so many complex arguments throughout sites such as this one.

Heavy thought, hey?

And of course that is the way man's own wisdom does things but it seems to them to be God's wisdom because of its focus.

I tend to think it is the simpler knowledge that is required to get us into the next world and that there the many will then come to understand the greater detail. Few of us understand it now. And those that do understand now it is probably because of what Yahweh has in mind for us as our appointment to serve in that next world. But we ought to not presume on even that.

 

[Vengle]

I can look around me impartially due to having tossed all named religions out of my heart years ago. That enabled to me to learn an unbiased understanding of the scriptures.

Then only after a while I began revisiting the religions to see how they compared. I found that if I were Isaac, Jehovah's Witnesses would be my Benjamin but that does not mean I need agree with them completely.

My Joesph is Christ and the church of the firstborn figuratively in the heavens above.

 

[Vengle]

What I see in the scripture is that none knew for certain that they would be the elect who ruled with Christ but all were being treated as such and were running that race to obtain.

Jehovah's Witness feel they already know who those are for sure and that has put their members in a predicament where they hold too much honor for particular men whom they assume are elect rulers with Christ, in a sense recreating another version of this one says I am of Apollos, that one says I am of Cephas, or of Paul, or of Christ.

I know they teach or at least taught that all of those seen in the early churches were co-rulers with Christ. That is not the case. All of them were training the same and running that race just as we ought to do. But they are not chosen until they finish that race as Christ did by the time he was raised on the stauros.

Clearly both "little flock" and "other sheep" were present there. To say different is to say God ignored righteously inclined ones just because they were not of that kingly/priestly group. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Insight]

What I see in the scripture is that none knew for certain that they would be the elect who ruled with Christ but all were being treated as such and were running that race to obtain.

Jehovah's Witness feel they already know who those are for sure and that has put their members in a predicament where they hold too much honor for particular men whom they assume are elect rulers with Christ, in a sense recreating another version of this one says I am of Apollos, that one says I am of Cephas, or of Paul, or of Christ.

I know they teach or at least taught that all of those seen in the early churches were co-rulers with Christ. That is not the case. All of them were training the same and running that race just as we ought to do. But they are not chosen until they finish that race as Christ did by the time he was raised on the stauros.

Agreed.

 

[Vengle]

A big point of stumbling is the thought, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Hosea 13:4)

How ought we to approach that?

You and I know that the following Christ himself also says, but they don't see that: Isaiah 12:2 "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

You and I know that when Paul said, 1 Timothy 2:3 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour", that Paul recognized we look through Christ to see the saving power in Christ comes of his Father.

We know that the same is true for Jude, when we read his words at Jude 25.

 

[Insight]

A big point of stumbling is the thought, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Hosea 13:4)

How ought we to approach that?

You and I know that the following Christ himself also says, but they don't see that: Isaiah 12:2 "Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation."

Quite simple.

Who saved Jesus Christ? Heb 5:7

And in saving Jesus what in turn did Jesus become to all in like condition as he? John 17:2

This is the issue Vengle.

They dont understand that Jesus never required reconciling (Col 1:20 NB Blood! we alone need reconciling!!!) However both Father and Son were one in Mind and sin never caused distance between them (Logos John 1:1) however, in body and flesh, Jesus required redemption as mush as you and I. Heb 9:12

Did Jesus secure eternal redemption for himself?

Most certainly did!!!! If you said no you are lost!

Remember the OP Christ is the firstborn of the flesh where Gods Word was embodied in His Son which immortilesd him and gave him life. More so than us who are light bearers; Jesus became a light source!

So where Jesus is referred to as Saviour we acknowledge that he himself was saved from death to salvation to all who believe on him.

Vengle - look up those two words in the Greek and see how they are used on us and Jesus Christ - this will enlighten you even further along the way.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

Quite simple.

Who saved Jesus Christ? Heb 5:7

And in saving Jesus what in turn did Jesus become to all in like condition as he? John 17:2

Yes, it is quite simple isn't it. But they have had the simple obscured with their mystery.

This is the issue Vengle.

They dont understand that Jesus never required0 reconciling (Col 1:20 NB Blood! we alone need reconciling!!!) However both Father and Son were one in Mind and sin never caused distance between them (Logos John 1:1) however, in body and flesh, Jesus required redemption as mush as you and I. Heb 9:12

So where Jesus is referred to as Saviour we acknowledge that he himself was saved from death to salvation to all who believe on him.

Vengle - look up those two words in the Greek and see how they are used on us and Jesus Christ - this will enlighten you even further along the way.

Insight

Is your point that the combination of apo in the word "reconciling" show that we basically extract that off of Christ's reconciling that body of flesh that he wore, as in reconciling to himself?

Or, that in reconciling Christ to Himself God reconciled all in Christ to Himself?

The interplay of that "apo' which is part of the Greek word for "reconciling" is interesting.

We were all reconciled "off" Christ's reconciliation?

For Christ had been forsaken for a time?

Christ would then have to be reconciled from out of that state of being forsaken?

And his faithfulness allowed that. This is all why we can correctly say of Christ that he is our righteousness.

I am not sure about whether I am correct to say as i did in my first statement here, "reconciling that body of flesh that he wore", but I think that may be so.

It was that body which was forsaken and then God called for the return of the life in the blood even as Abel's blood was able to cry out to God from the ground.

So no, it is not correct to say it as I did that it was the body of flesh was reconciled. It was the life in the blood which had been forsaken for a time due to the body of sin. And this merely condemned the sin in the flesh that would take also the righteous life as represented by the life in the blood.

Thus Christ's faithfulness provided the foundation to recall that righteous life in the blood and condemn sin and death at the same time.

Or, maybe it was both that were reconciled, and only the sin and death that were condemned in this.

 

[Insight]

Yes, it is quite simple isn't it. But they have had the simple obscured with their mystery.




Is your point that the combination of apo in the word "reconciling" show that we basically extract that off of Christ's reconciling that body of flesh that he wore, as in reconciling to himself?

Or, that in reconciling Christ to Himself God reconciled all in Christ to Himself?

The interplay of that "apo' which is part of the Greek word for "reconciling" is interesting.

We were all reconciled "off" Christ's reconciliation?

For Christ had been forsaken for a time?

Christ would then have to be reconciled from out of that state of being forsaken?

And his faithfulness allowed that. This is all why we can correctly say of Christ that he is our righteousness.

I am not sure about whether I am correct to say as i did in my first statement here, "reconciling that body of flesh that he wore", but I think that may be so.

It was that body which was forsaken and then God called for the return of the life in the blood even as Abel's blood was able to cry out to God from the ground.

Vengle this subject of reconciliation and redemption has been the cause of so much dispute and contention with true Christians for many generations. Of course Trinitarians do not concern themselves with this essential subject of Gods work in the natural body of Jesus Christ.

I say this with some heaviness that their salvation is lost for some very good reasons which we have already explored in part.

As you can tell I have been considering this topic for the past 18 years, due to some very personal reasons, which I will not go into here and now.

I will prepare some thoughts and be back in a little while.

Insight

 

[Vengle]

OK, that will give my brain a short rest. :lol:

 

[Insight]

The Atonement is a subject filled with precepts and principles that need to be appreciated by all reading these posts. If you fail to rise to them you will find your development of character by Yahweh and His Son will be severely hampered and cannot find benefit in salvation.

These matters we have been reading encompass the "great and precious promises" and how those promises will conclude in receiving a "divine nature in those who have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Pet. 1:4).

So let’s look at one such principle:

Vengle, you will recall we spoke about the sufferings of Christ (especially in the Psalms) are graphically revealed, as well as "the glory that should follow".

Many Trinitarians desire to limit these sufferings to fit their well developed teachings. The reality Vengle is his sufferings cannot be confined to his final moments of tribulation. The atonement demands of a believer to consider how Jesus felt and what he thought in relation to his whole surroundings.

Any and every Christian can gain such profound insight into the redemption and reconciliation work in Jesus Christ throughout the Psalms. Now we could study in great detail Psalm 69, which Paul refers to in Romans.

Let this passage rest on you and mediate upon its meaning.

"Christ pleased not himself, but as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached Thee fell on me" (Romans 15:3).

Now if you went to the Psalm we are shown the inner and personal experience of Jesus Christ in a form not revealed as clearly in the Gospel narratives – its there but one most look far deeper into the record whereas the Messianic Psalm provide an intimate look at Jesus Christ.

Psalm 69:5

"O Lord, Thou knowest my foolishness, and my sins are not hid from Thee".

Now immediately one reading this is confronted with an Oh No! However the application of this passage to Christ can only be understood in understanding Jesus partook of our common nature; which to Yahweh who is Holiness, is unclean — it’s the flesh of fallen Adam a nature which is condemned to die due to a divine sentence — in which, Paul says, there "dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18); out of this nature dear reader is the weight of its tendencies to manifest foolishness and sin.

So how does this apply to Jesus Christ?

Well, Jesus’ burden having born this nature was heightened but the higher heavenly things which he comprehended in the mind of Jesus Christ.

You see Jesus was so clearly in tune with how evil the nature of man is compared to his understanding of pure Holiness and spotlessness of a Spirit nature like those of the Angels (2 Peter 1:4 & Heb 2:16).

I can hear you saying yes Christ carried the burden and bore the share weight without stumbling! Yes? But he still bore the nature and its desires.

I have written this not only for Vengle, but for all to encourage you to search out the true nature of Jesus Christ.

Yahweh chose before the foundation of the earth to place the process of salvation in the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Do you truly know Jesus Christ and his nature?

Insight

 

[Insight]

Lets begin.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Romans 5:11)

What does this passage mean to you Vengle?

How should the Word atonement be translated?

Many say "reconciliation"

Rom 5:11NIV
Rom 5:11ESV
Rom 5:11YLT
Rom 5:11NET

 

[Vengle]

The Atonement is a subject filled with precepts and principles that need to be appreciated by all reading these posts. If you fail to rise to them you will find your development of character by Yahweh and His Son will be severely hampered and cannot find benefit in salvation.

These matters we have been reading encompass the "great and precious promises" and how those promises will conclude in receiving a "divine nature in those who have escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2 Pet. 1:4).

So let’s look at one such principle:

Vengle, you will recall we spoke about the sufferings of Christ (especially in the Psalms) are graphically revealed, as well as "the glory that should follow".

Many Trinitarians desire to limit these sufferings to fit their well developed teachings. The reality Vengle is his sufferings cannot be confined to his final moments of tribulation. The atonement demands of a believer to consider how Jesus felt and what he thought in relation to his whole surroundings.

Any and every Christian can gain such profound insight into the redemption and reconciliation work in Jesus Christ throughout the Psalms. Now we could study in great detail Psalm 69, which Paul refers to in Romans.

Let this passage rest on you and mediate upon its meaning.

"Christ pleased not himself, but as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached Thee fell on me" (Romans 15:3).

Now if you went to the Psalm we are shown the inner and personal experience of Jesus Christ in a form not revealed as clearly in the Gospel narratives – its there but one most look far deeper into the record whereas the Messianic Psalm provide an intimate look at Jesus Christ.

Psalm 69:5

"O Lord, Thou knowest my foolishness, and my sins are not hid from Thee".

Now immediately one reading this is confronted with an Oh No! However the application of this passage to Christ can only be understood in understanding Jesus partook of our common nature; which to Yahweh who is Holiness is unclean — it’s the flesh of fallen Adam a nature which is condemned to die due to a divine sentence — in which, Paul says, there "dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18); out of this nature dear reader is the weight of its tendencies to manifest foolishness and sin.

So how does this apply to Jesus Christ?

Well, Jesus’ burden having born this nature was heightened but the higher heavenly things which he comprehended in the mind of Jesus Christ.

You see Jesus was so clearly in tune with how evil the nature of man is compared to his understanding of pure Holiness and spotlessness of a Spirit nature like those of the Angels (2 Peter 1:4 & Heb 2:16).

I can hear you saying yes Christ carried the burden and bore the share weight without stumbling!

I have written this not only for Vengle, but for all to encourage you to search out the true nature of Jesus Christ.

Yahweh chose before the foundation of the earth to place the process of salvation in the body and blood of Jesus Christ.

Do you truly know Jesus Christ and his nature?

Insight

Yes you speak here as I have long believed; which has greatly enhanced the enlightenment and pleasure I find in the Psalms.

You said, "I can hear you saying yes Christ carried the burden and bore the share weight without stumbling!"

That is correct with qualification. For I see that he at points vexed in his spirit which some dare see as a weakness in his faith. That so perturbs me to here people say such things and I am forced to have to turn a deaf ear to it when they do. But I yet have compassion toward them in such ignorance.

Jesus' sweating droplets as blood and things of that nature in no way equates to any failure on his part but merely prove that he was like us. Yet his being like us was surmountable for him by virtue of his spirit of wisdom which the Father blessed him with just as he does us if we are completely committed and seeking to totally be faithful to Him. Jesus could do this because he in no way lived for his flesh to pamper his flesh. And that is what we need to get over doing so that we can truly emulate Jesus' example in ourselves.

Actually Christ is the example to us of letting God carry the burden.

That is what I see. That is why I say as did Paul that Yahweh is my strength and my power. But I am also able to say that it is through Christ that I am enabled to draw that power and strength. (Which means by reason of following closely Christ's example to me.)

 

[Insight]

Yes you speak here as I have long believed; which has greatly enhanced the enlightenment and pleasure I find in the Psalms.

You said, "I can hear you saying yes Christ carried the burden and bore the share weight without stumbling!"

That is correct with qualification. For I see that he at points vexed in his spirit which some dare see as a weakness in his faith. That so perturbs me to here people say such things and I am forced to have to turn a deaf ear to it when they do. But I yet have compassion toward them in such ignorance.

Jesus' sweating droplets as blood and things of that nature in no way equates to any failure on his part but merely prove that he was like us. Yet his being like us was surmountable for him by virtue of his spirit of wisdom which the Father blessed him with just as he does us if we are completely committed and seeking to totally be faithful to Him. Jesus could do this because he in no way lived for his flesh to pamper his flesh. And that is what we need to get over doing so that we can truly emulate Jesus' example in ourselves.

Actually Christ is the example to us of letting God carry the burden.

That is what I see.

You see clearly Vengle.

 

[Vengle]

You see clearly Vengle.

What I have found in this life is that at times we find that people we think do not understand, simply lack ability to say it in words that would effectively communicate what they do believe.

That is a strange thing as we would be inclined to think that if they cannot say it they surely must not understand it. That is often true but not always. In any case it does benefit us to learn also to speak it correctly as that reviews us in what we know and reinforces it. It also prepares us to better help others.

I have found many instances where by what they say one would think that they do know, only to find out later that they did not really understand what they said. :lol:

We are complicated creatures and yet we are not.

 

[Insight]

Did you see this post Vengle?

Lets begin.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Romans 5:11)

What does this passage mean to you Vengle?

How should the Word atonement be translated?

Many say "reconciliation"

Rom 5:11NIV
Rom 5:11ESV
Rom 5:11YLT
Rom 5:11NET

 

[Vengle]

Did you see this post Vengle?

Lets begin.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Romans 5:11)

What does this passage mean to you Vengle?

How should the Word atonement be translated?

Many say "reconciliation"

Rom 5:11NIV
Rom 5:11ESV
Rom 5:11YLT
Rom 5:11NET

That is to me that good conscious before God that now gives in God's eyes recognition to our faithfulness that he may give us credit for our obedience to His good works. (1 Peter 3:21)

Thus we see how the verse just preceding it also enters in. Romans 5:10 "For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

It is living the life in Christ that actually is saving us, that made possible by the blood of the covenant, it having reconciled us to God.

There are many who believe their salvation is secured solely by the blood who do not like this truth.

"How should the Word atonement be translated?"

We could use the word reconciled as many translations do, but that is yet a bit confusing for many.

The original word in the Greek refers to "exchange". Thus it is the exchange of our dead status to the living recognizable status of Christ that in living that life exemplified to us in him (or, by him) God begins recognizing our walk toward the salvation that exists only in our actual return to holiness.

Thus the bathing and cleansing in the water of the word that we might come to be in reality without spot or blemish before God. (Ephesians 5:26-27)

And where we error along the way God is faithful so as to not forget our good works and will forgive us; that based on the sincerity by which we are really committed to living that life in Christ. (Hebrews 6:10) (1 John 1:9)

God is not a pushover; He is not one to be mocked.

Galatians 6:7-9 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."

2 Corinthians 13:5 "Test yourselves to discover whether you are true believers: put your own selves under examination. Or do you not know that Jesus Christ is within you, unless you are insincere?" (Weymouth New Testament)

 

[Insight]

Must sleep goodnight

 

[Vengle]

Isaiah 43:11 “I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.”
Hosea 13:4 “Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.”

Are the above verses proof that Christ is literally God? Is there a conflict in believing Jesus is not literally God when we compare the above verses to the following verses:

Luke 2:11 “For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.”

The Hebrew word for “savior” in both of the above OT verses is H3467 -- yasha` -- pronounced: yaw-shah' -- a primitive root; properly, to be open, wide or free, i.e. (by implication) to be safe; causatively, to free or succor: KJV -- X at all, avenging, defend, deliver(-er), help, preserve, rescue, be safe, bring (having) salvation, save(-iour), get victory.

The Greek word for “savior” at Luke 2:11 is G4990 -- soter -- pronounced: so-tare' -- from 4982; a deliverer, i.e. God or Christ: KJV -- saviour.
See Greek No. G4982 -- sozo -- pronounced: sode'-zo -- from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV -- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

We see that the Hebrew word reaches further than the Greek word. And we know the following things about Christ:
(1) Christ is the Lamb that God provided.
(2) That Lamb would deliver us from our sin and thus reconcile us to God.

Thus Christ fits the description of a savior not beside God, but as a servant of God who gets his power and strength from God.

How can I say that Christ is not a savior “beside” God? Simple, I looked at the Hebrew word there translated as “beside” and found that it means “without me”.

H1107 -- bil`adey -- pronounced: bil-ad-ay' or balmadey bal-ad-ay' -- constructive plural from 1077 and 5703, not till, i.e. (as preposition or adverb) except, without, besides: KJV -- beside, not (in), save, without.

It more precisely means “not till”. So what it is telling us is that until God is in the picture no one can be a savior toward us. And God is definitely in the picture with Christ, God being the very source Of Jesus' power and strength, even to endure as we just finished discussing about how Jesus is our great example of letting God bear our burdens.

Now with just a little capacity to be humble and honest with yourself, it is no longer confusing.

 

[Insight]

Lets begin.

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Romans 5:11)

What does this passage mean to you Vengle?

How should the Word atonement be translated?

Many say "reconciliation"

Rom 5:11NIV
Rom 5:11ESV
Rom 5:11YLT
Rom 5:11NET

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The joy is expressed in God because it was in His great determinant council that His plan was fulfilled through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. It is by (this sacrifice) that we have been reconciled.

So let’s consider the context of this verse.

"When we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more being reconciled we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement" Rom 5:6-11

The standard AV shows in the margin "reconciliation" for the Greek word katallagee, the only occurrences of which in the N.T. are the following: Rom. 5:11; 11:15; 2 Cor. 5:18,19.

It is clearly plain for all to see that our reconciliation is to do with the death of Christ who is the Son of God in reconciling us back to God.

Vengle has already explained the depth of meaning of this word katallagee but again for reinforcement.

The Word carries the idea of a change of status from some other position. Whatever the reason for our reconciliation it must infer a change away from something for a particular reason. From the One reconciling to the benefactor the transaction or exchange must be of favour and beneficial for both parties.

The verb katallasso is from allos, another.

Example:

If you see how the word allophulos is used of one who is not a Jew (See Acts 10:28). We find that many of the Christians were not Jews but Gentiles by nature (See Eph 2:11), However via Rom 5:11 they are bought into Chrsit “no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God" (Eph 2:19).

Insight