Christ as the firstborn

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Insight

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Believe as you wish.

We are done with this conversation.

Vengle.

Please dont be like that...

[sup]3[/sup] Because of this Jesus is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. [sup]4[/sup]And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was..

Who is the he Vengle?
 

Insight

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Heb 5:1-10: Is speaking of Jesus as high priest.

It includes the qualifications of Jesus as high priest and whether he satisfies the type of the OT prieslty system. Not only does the aurthor reveal how Jesus fulfills every criteria he goes on to show how this new order, is a better Priestly service with a greater High Priest ordained over it...than Aaron.

Jesus was required to be "clothed with weakness".

Why?

The law appoints as high priests men who are weak" (See Heb 7:28). Priests, in order to be effective, must experience and be aware of their humanity, and their weakness, which they hold in common with other men.

It was because of this very weakness that Jesus himself was crucified (Heb 2:14,15; ).

And for good reason...

For though Jesus was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. 2 Cor 13:4

These matters must be addressed and confronted head on Vengle not in arrogance or pride but in humility acknowledging the power of God toward us through a High Priest who was like us in every way except for wilful sin.

In his service

Insight

p.s It is enough
 

Insight

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For though Jesus was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you

What weakness did you and Jesus share?

For though Jesus was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you

What weakness did you and Jesus share?

Meditate upon "crucified through weakness"

How so?
 

Insight

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For though Jesus was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you

What weakness did you and Jesus share?



Meditate upon "crucified through weakness"

How so?

Rom 8:3 might assist...
Heb 2:14,15
Heb 5:2,3
2 Cor 5:21
Gal 4:4
Gal 5:24
Heb 7:27

And Jesus being washed through his own blood and cleansed of Rom 8:3 through Heb 13:20.

The victory of the power of death was brken in the body of Jesus Christ thereby all who have faith in him can find redemption.

Amen
 

Insight

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Since therefore (Vengle & Insight) share in flesh and blood, Jesus himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death(2 Cor 13:4) Jesus might destroy the one (sin's flesh personified) who has the power of death, that is, the devil.

What has the power of death?

Rom 6:23 = Sin...and where does sin have its dominion in us = flesh

Why did Jesus have our nature (i.e. fallen flesh)?

and deliver (Vengle and Insight) those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery.

So when you are baptised into Christ what are you Baptised into?

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Romans 6:3)

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:4)

His victory becomes ours through faith!
 

Vengle

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That is typical of your inability to reason in this matter. You stated, “The law appoints as high priests men who are weak" (See Heb 7:28). Priests, in order to be effective, must experience and be aware of their humanity, and their weakness, which they hold in common with other men."

But the Law did not appoint Jesus as priest and the very wording of Heb 7:28 shows Jesus was not appointed that way as the Law but you are too prideful to reason on it. You are blaspheming through arrogance and unwillingness to see that you are in error.

You do not even understand that all which is necessary for even a perfect man is that he suffer being tempted as Jesus was of the devil those 40 days and 40 nights. And that perfect man being bruised by our sin the way we are bruised by our sin and conscious of the flesh desire to protect itself by desperate means from suffering (as sweating droplets of blood shows) he being yet perfect was like us and can sympathize with us.

As I said, this conversation is over for me because I see your conclusions as blasphemous and they repulse me.
 

Insight

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Repulse yes.

The truths about his victory over flesh is not easily swallowed.

Sin has been destroyed in a perfect sacrifice.

In this let us rejoice!
 

Insight

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That is typical of your inability to reason in this matter. You stated, “The law appoints as high priests men who are weak" (See Heb 7:28). Priests, in order to be effective, must experience and be aware of their humanity, and their weakness, which they hold in common with other men."

But the Law did not appoint Jesus as priest and the very wording of Heb 7:28 shows Jesus was not appointed that way as the Law but you are too prideful to reason on it. You are blaspheming through arrogance and unwillingness to see that you are in error.

If you don’t mind Vengle I will ignore the less than favourable comments as I know the depth of love and joy for things spiritual still resides in your heart.

You have raised a valid point that others should consider.

So let us consider your comment below:

But the Law did not appoint Jesus as priest and the very wording of Heb 7:28 shows Jesus was not appointed that way as the Law

I have considered this question of sometime Vengle and it is one which fills the minds of his priests in training.

Jesus appointment as you say could never come via the Law so what constitutes the Melchizedek order?

It could only be given on the basis of Sonship.

Jesus was the appointed firstborn of Yahweh’s family and the privileges he received from the Father are clearly taught in the example of Shem.

As far as I can see they include: (1) authority (2) inheritance (3) priesthood.

We see in Shem and Levi both being elevated from youngest to the appointed firstborn of the family where they acted as its priest.

If you see Gen 10:20KJV; Gen 10:21KJV you will note that Japeth is the elder brother, although in Gen 6:10KJV Shem is mentioned first – why is this so?

This certainly fits beautifully with Jesus’ appointment not being law as you will see it was the prerogative of a parent to elevate a younger son into the position of legal firstborn, if such were deemed necessary (1 Chron. 5:1; Deut. 21:15-17).

Of course we have already looked at how Levi was appointed to firstborn privledges - see Exod. 24:5 and because of apostasy in the camp while Moses was in the Mount see Exod. 32:25,26,27,28,29,

So in place of the firstborn the tribe of Levi was given the priesthood - See Num 3:45; 8:16.

So how does this apply to Jesus Christ as you say was not appointed by law but something else?

Yahweh found no fault in his Son and it pleased Him in every way so God appointed Jesus the "firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15).
Of course now Jesus has given all power over flesh having crucified and removed the enmity in his flesh is now able to appoint Priests (see 1 Pet. 2:9), which is not limited to ethnicity or creed but rather a matter of appointment (Heb. 5:1,2,3,4).

BTW Vengle have you ever noticed the connection between Luke 1:32 “son of the highest” and Gen 14:18 “of the Most high God”.

The restoration of divine dominion (compared to our current state of sin leading to death) would come through Jesus Christ reconciling all things “spiritual” in the Son.

You do not even understand that all which is necessary for even a perfect man is that he suffer being tempted as Jesus was of the devil those 40 days and 40 nights. And that perfect man being bruised by our sin the way we are bruised by our sin and conscious of the flesh desire to protect itself by desperate means from suffering (as sweating droplets of blood shows) he being yet perfect was like us and can sympathize with us.

Yes Jesus had his own will which he was required to lay down but this become more pressing on him as the cross loomed ever near.

We read words on a page but I am sure if we were there with him Vengle we would see Heb 12:4 in a very different way as Jesus strove against sin.

I won’t go into Heb 12:4KJV cmp Luk 22:44 as I know how sensitive you are ( at present) to this subject, but will leave it with you enquire of the matter. You may like to see the great drops of sweat symbolized and foreshadowed great drops of blood! See Psa 22:15 & Isa 53:11.

Anyway it has been scientifically proven a person can have this happen under great stress the small capillaries near the surface of the skin can rupture, tingeing the perspiration red.

The stress came as the result of two opposing wills – one fleshly or carnal and the other divine. One resisting and the other accepting his position as a lamb slain not only from his birth but from the foundation of the earth.

As I said, this conversation is over for me because I see your conclusions as blasphemous and they repulse me.

The truth, as you would be aware is not something which is given to be palatable – Jeremiah tells us the Fathers Word is likened to hammer that smashes your flesh (rocks) Jer 23:29. We find the Father took His hammer upon the anvil and pounded (Isa 53:10) and shape the softened metal into a fit instrument for His use.

Jesus Christ was His metal and the Word smashed (Heb 5:8) his flesh putting to death its inclinations and affections until a pure image remained.

It took the Father 33 ½ years to prepare the Son for that day Vengle.

We both know what happened.

Jesus told us during his ministry that his nature would needed to be lifted up John 3:14; he likened his body to a serpent for reasons already explain.

And that serpent must needs be lifted up if he was to draw all men to himself.

Amen
 

Vengle

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Congrats on the humility you show in handling my words to you. :)

You stopped talking in your last post as if swinging into the air and it is correct but for one thing you are not yet seeing.

Remember at the end of post #488 I said, "The problem with all Bible based theories is that they are all based in a certain amount of truth. They could not be confusing if they were not. Our task is to carefully sort between the truth and the falsehoods to purify what we believe. ..."

You said in this last post, "The stress came as the result of two opposing wills – one fleshly or carnal and the other divine. One resisting and the other accepting his position as a lamb slain not only from his birth but from the foundation of the earth."

Those wills are mere abstracts for the direction of focus we choose to use our will.

I am trying to loosen you to see that exists even in humans with perfect flesh. Those opposing wills were what Eve fell to during her perfection. Though Adam being not deceived demonstrated those who can know that they have turned their will away from God and do so deliberately, loving something else more than loving God.

When you get that understanding right you will know that the whole idea of an inherited sin nature is a falsehood and that even a perfect human must learn obedience and choose to be faithful to God.

Oh, then you will see that it was never an issue of Jesus having to literally bear literal sin in his body and he was perfect as he never did anything to corrupt himself. That ought to give you flashback to what I have previously said that you seemed to ignore thus finally moving me to be tougher.

Oh, also understanding that the sin nature idea is an orchestration of men and seeing how it really works, will bring to life points of the scripture that were kept hid from you by that one little misunderstanding.

Proverbs 27:6 :)
 

Vengle

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I said, "Those wills are mere abstracts for the direction of focus we choose to use our will."

Our will is merely a part of our spirit. We can use our spirit to follow God's spirit (and thus be spiritual) or we can use our spirit to pamper our flesh (and thus be fleshly; carnal in the sense that we focus more on the fleshly and the physical than we do on the spiritual).

We do develop a leaning by natural habit. That is because the way is not nor ever was meant to be in us, not even if we were perfect. That is what Jesus showed so well in how he lives, eats and breathes the will of his Father. And that is what Jeremiah 10:23 is telling us. If the bent or leaning of our spirit is trained by habit to pamper ourselves then we are fleshly and carnal in the focus of our spirit which keeps are spirit weak as it becomes more of a slave to pampering ourselves. And habits are difficult to break, especially when we do not see that we are doing it. They can be like addictions wherein there is great denial. In that denial we remain helplessly hooked.

But we can break that addiction and develop a new bent toward the spirit of Yahweh by following the example of Jesus, not by ritual like doing of his similar works (though we must also practice those works), but by understanding those works and being renewed in our minds to see those works as he does. Yes, it takes time. For some it takes more time than for others.

But this prevalent sin nature concoction of men was developed in ignorance that imagined it was embracing what Paul described. The greatest proof that it is false doctrine is that it is the bedrock belief of those who use it as an excuse to believe they can be saved completely without God's works of righteousness. Many use it as proof that God does it all for them and then they sing la la la thinking their whole job is to rejoice in what He is doing for them. They rob themselves of the very tool Yahweh desires to teach them to benefit themselves with. (Isaiah 48:17-17) And then when their illusion of being saved begins to fail them they think God has failed them or are thrown into confusion that tells them God must see that they are not salvageable.

Every tree that does not bear righteous fruit shall be cut down. That same principle applies to our doctrines. We must examine the fruits that our beliefs most frequently bear. The tree of truth does not bear rotten fruit. That sin nature doctrine is a rotten tree. We must cut it down for if we wait on God to cut it down many of us will be cut down along with it.


I have clearly revealed now that I do not believe in a sin nature as though a literal part of man and which a man is powerless against. But, I have used the expression quite often until someone from this site confronted me concerning its falsehood and began me to thinking. Yet I never meant it like those that invented the theory teach it. I had merely committed the indiscretion of the Catholic Church in borrowing pagan ideas thinking they could turn them to good use, both by appeasing the pagan peoples to be willing to listen and then using such ideas as a stepping stone to step off of into the truth. But it proves not to work that way. It merely adds more ways for people to misconstrue your words, attaching their desired belief to them. And it can also begin to confuse one’s own self.

When I watched that video someone on here posted called ‘The Truth or Tradition’ narrated by Jim Staley, I saw clearly how I was making the same mistake with that subject as the Catholic Church with so many subjects.

And I repented of it.

Now all that remains is that I work all the damage out that taking that liberty caused to my presentation so that I am less likely to be misunderstood when I speak.

It is OK to be human. As I have said, even perfect people have to learn. There, the way I said that you might get the idea I mean that I see myself as perfect. :) Don't I wish. Not yet anyway.

I well know, O Yahweh, that the way of man is not in him (not even in a perfect man), it does not belong to man who walks to direct his own steps. I completely relate to Jeremiah 10:23. By ourselves we are nothing. That is always going to be true. And it is as it should be. Our God is our happiness and our love and our zest for life.
 

Insight

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Vengle,

Upon reflection it is somewhat interesting we have drawn to these conclusions. As you are stating in your above two posts we either have perfect nature of nature which is imperfect.

I maintain that both ours, and the Masters nature, was imperfect for many reasons, some of which are very clearly stated.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)

Paul here is explaining that something is at work in his flesh nature which is NOTgood and certainly not perfect.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

So whatever this "no good thing" is it is associated with evil.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7:19-21)

The sin that dwelt in him is not a physical substance so that if one was to cut off their arm they become less sinful - not at all !!! It is a law inherently working upon the carnal desires (Rom 8:3,4,5,6,7,8 and so on) that causes us to sin. Paul is highlighting that in his dying body is a weakness easily produces moral sin. Therefore the relationship between flesh and sin is the same.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Paul here turns his thoughts to the Mind of the Spirit working in his mind and how comparatively to the carnal fleshly mind - he delights after the things of God

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,

However, Paul quickly turns his attention back to the law of sin and death working in his members (flesh) which causes him to war in the MIND.

and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

When he sins he become captive or prisoner to this law which leads to death.

Knowing this he state who wretched a man he is while dwelling in a body that is prone to sin

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:22-24)

Of course when one reads of the agony Jesus faced dwelling in this nature never allowing that law to work in his members we can see how his whole life was one of suffering and pain as he prayed to his God for deliverence from a condemned nature.

Jesus, who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (Hebrews 5:7)

The moment a believer acknowledges Jesus had within his nature the same process of death as we immediately we are confronted with an imperfect nature one that is condemned to death and one that we are required to be loosed from.

Thankfully Jesus never activated his flesh nor gave voice to the carnal (animal) mind but killed those thoughts and feelings and delighted in the Mind of the Spirit.

Insight
 

Vengle

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Vengle,

Upon reflection it is somewhat interesting we have drawn to these conclusions. As you are stating in your above two posts we either have perfect nature of nature which is imperfect.

I maintain that both ours, and the Masters nature, was imperfect for many reasons, some of which are very clearly stated.

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (Romans 7:18)

Paul here is explaining that something is at work in his flesh nature which is NOTgood and certainly not perfect.

For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

So whatever this "no good thing" is it is associated with evil.

Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (Romans 7:19-21)

The sin that dwelt in him is not a physical substance so that if one was to cut off their arm they become less sinful - not at all !!! It is a law inherently working upon the carnal desires (Rom 8:3,4,5,6,7,8 and so on) that causes us to sin. Paul is highlighting that in his dying body is a weakness easily produces moral sin. Therefore the relationship between flesh and sin is the same.

For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Paul here turns his thoughts to the Mind of the Spirit working in his mind and how comparatively to the carnal fleshly mind - he delights after the things of God

But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind,

However, Paul quickly turns his attention back to the law of sin and death working in his members (flesh) which causes him to war in the MIND.

and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

When he sins he become captive or prisoner to this law which leads to death.

Knowing this he state who wretched a man he is while dwelling in a body that is prone to sin

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Romans 7:22-24)

Of course when one reads of the agony Jesus faced dwelling in this nature never allowing that law to work in his members we can see how his whole life was one of suffering and pain as he prayed to his God for deliverence from a condemned nature.

Jesus, who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; (Hebrews 5:7)

The moment a believer acknowledges Jesus had within his nature the same process of death as we immediately we are confronted with an imperfect nature one that is condemned to death and one that we are required to be loosed from.

Thankfully Jesus never activated his flesh nor gave voice to the carnal (animal) mind but killed those thoughts and feelings and delighted in the Mind of the Spirit.

Insight

Paul is correct that all good things come of God. Good things do not come of even a perfect man for if they did he would not become imperfect simply by disconnecting from God.

It is not so very hard to understand.

You merely have a clog in your spiritual pipes just as we all do and have to begin clearing it out of them.

Believe Jesus. he knew of what he spoke.

Luke 18:19 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

That is good reason to not live for self. :)

I repeat: Jeremiah 10:23
 

Vengle

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Have you made the connection yet?

Good things are connected with God just as it is ignoring God that is connected with Evil. Sin merely means 'to miss the mark' of God's standards.

On our own whether perfect as Eve was when she fell pray to sin by ignoring God or whether having already sinned and just continuing to compound sin, the connection is the same. The flesh is merely what we turned to when we turned away from God.

Man was not created to ignore God.

That is your common denominator.

When we ignore God sin's law wars in our flesh because we cannot help but miss the mark of the standards he sets even as perfect Eve missed that mark. That is all Paul is saying.

It is kind of like his warning that it was OK to marry but if you do you will have tribulations in the flesh.

And why is that? Because you have less time to focus on mending your relationship with God. that is what Paul said. And ignoring God means missing the mark even when we are perfect as Eve was.
 

veteran

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Answer this same question Jesus asked those Pharisees Vengle...

Matt 22:41-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
(KJV)
 

Vengle

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Answer this same question Jesus asked those Pharisees Vengle...

Matt 22:41-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
(KJV)

We both know that he was in reality the Son of God even in the flesh for he had no actual paternal connection as the holy spirit formed him in Mary's womb and no man's seed sowed him of this world.
 

Insight

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Paul is correct that all good things come of God. Good things do not come of even a perfect man for if they did he would not become imperfect simply by disconnecting from God.

It is not so very hard to understand.

You merely have a clog in your spiritual pipes just as we all do and have to begin clearing it out of them.

Believe Jesus. he knew of what he spoke.

Luke 18:19 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

That is good reason to not live for self. :)

I repeat: Jeremiah 10:23

Jesus was able to say "none is good, save one, that is, God" because he himself knew what was in man, that is to say what is in the Flesh. John 2:25

I wonder how he knew this?

Insight :)

Answer this same question Jesus asked those Pharisees Vengle...

Matt 22:41-45
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
(KJV)

Rom 1:3
 

Vengle

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Jesus was able to say "none is good, save one, that is, God" because he himslef knew what was in man, that is to say what is in the Flesh. John 2:25

Insight :)

No that is to say as in the thinking of man alienated from God and the leanings that such a man develops even as perfect Eve did by not listening to God.

In fact as we all did. :)

I trump your smiley face. :lol:

You want to become familiar with a man's sins?

Live with him.

That has been a problem for many marriages where they saw only their partners best face before they lived together.

Jesus came and he lived with us. By the wisdom he had of his Father he could know us.

Much better than we know ourselves.
 

Insight

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This is human reasoning in its highest expression.

You may like to read this again, and again until the absurdity is revealed.

We both know that he was in reality the Son of God even in the flesh for he had no actual paternal connection as the holy spirit formed him in Mary's womb and no man's seed sowed him of this world.

Let me see now "No paternal connection" AND "in Mary's Womb" lets do that again "No paternal connection" AND "in Mary's Womb"....

I expect this of Veteran but not you Vengle, I thought you had a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ and why he was made exactly like his brothers in every respect bar none. Heb 2:17

Matt 1:1 Rom 1:3 Matt 9:27;15:22;20:30 and so on...

Yes what was Jesus called again "Son of Man"

The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? (John 12:34)

From the wisdom you both agreed upon it appears Jesus following warning must need apply..."lest darkness come upon you"

Sorry Vengle & Veteran to correct you both but contradtions such as you both made need to be made an example of in light of the Son of Man.

If your minds were in the Scriptures you would have said...

Jesus was not Conceived by the "will of the flesh"

However still being born in the flesh.

Insight
 

Vengle

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This is human reasoning in its highest expression.

You may like to read this again, and again until the absurdity is revealed.



Let me see now "No paternal connection" AND "in Mary's Womb" lets do that again "No paternal connection" AND "in Mary's Womb"....

I expect this of Veteran but not you Vengle, I thought you had a deeper understanding of Jesus Christ and why he was made exactly like his brothers in every respect bar none. Heb 2:17

Matt 1:1 Rom 1:3 Matt 9:27;15:22;20:30 and so on...

Yes what was Jesus called again "Son of Man"

The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? (John 12:34)

From the wisdom you both agreed upon it appears Jesus following warning must need apply..."lest darkness come upon you"

Sorry Vengle & Veteran to correct you both but contradtions such as you both made need to be made an example of in light of the Son of Man.

Insight

Are you trying to prove you enjoy arguing?

Or just that your vocabulary needs work. :lol:

Maternal = connection through a human mother

Paternal = connection through a human father

You also know that his connection to David was given by blessing of the promise of God. (In actuality rather than how it appeared to his people)

You do just enjoy being obstinate :D .