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Christ as the firstborn

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Prentis, Nov 17, 2011.

  1. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    While i am speaking of stubbornness let me add that it is not the fruit of sin lest it is used the wrong way.

    It is a natural normal endowment of God when used properly.

    Like today this old man carried a roll of 12' X 8' carpet (very thick woven too) on my shoulder for a bit more than a mile to get it home from the store at which I had purchased it. I was not about to suffer another winter with these hard wood floors as I have my unheated garage/basement right below me and these floors get very cold. (Which then makes my bones ache)

    I am stubborn enough to do such things when I have to. I survived out in the woods living in a tent even when the actual temperature hit -20 below zero. The chill factor was running -35 to -45 below. If not for me being so stubborn I would not have survived. But God blesses those who who try and I did survive.

    Stubbornness is a good thing when channeled the proper direction.

    The moral of my story Insight is that I am telling you to go live in a tent. :lol:

    And no, it was not stubbornness that landed me in that situation where I had to live in a tent. It was severe vertigo plaguing so frequently and badly each and every day from my having a very severe case of Meniere's Disease that kept my employers constantly letting me go. I was too great a liability for them to have around.

    I had not gotten a formal diagnosis as yet at that time as none of my jobs ever provided insurance. So the hundreds of times I ran to the emergency room and the clinics netted only a guess of an inner ear infection and a prescription for antibiotics which never worked. It was only after my disease finally made me homeless and more than 800 miles away from relatives in any direction, that i finally qualified for free health care and had the ENTs and the Cat Scans and all the many tests available to me to find out what was happening to me.

    I felt like a total flop and a failure because of my illness. I felt useless and a burden to family and friends. I still cannot prevent the vertigo but at least now I have better ways to deal with it.

    Yesterday I fell down at the side of the road walking to Lowes Lumber and Supplies store to check out carpet prices. I made a new friend out of it when a lady who saw it followed me to Lowes and stopped me to talk with me. So it is not all bad. It could certainly be worse. And as long as I am thinking on God and his word he gives me total mental relief from it. I have had attacks even while on here but I have learned to let it be cause through my capacity to be stubborn to just assert myself all that much harder to learn His word.

    It has made me about 3/4 deaf with one ear completely gone and the other needing a hearing aide (wich I cannot afford). But even that has its hidden blessings (especially if I am with someone I do not really care to listen to. I just sit them on the side with my totally deaf ear.) :lol:
     
  2. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Hi Vengle,

    I stand corrected. After having four children one would think I would know the difference ;)

    BTW I am not obstinate, just over zealous for speaking truth, and disagreement is not obstinacy though it can appear so at times.

    We haven’t come to an agreement on Rom 8:3 and Heb 2:14 whereby each of us can define clearly and concisely the Lord's body. But in time and with reading the Word of God, as you do, I believe these matters will open up.

    Like you once said in a post, which I thought at the time was a great revelation "The affects of Adam's sin in his flesh (styled the law of sin and death) condemned an innocent man to death"

    God seeing knew this was the only way to destroy deaths power so He was just and right to raise him and by doing so broke the power of death which had domnion over him.

    Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. (Romans 6:9)

    Do you like the past tense?

    I do, becuase one day it will be spoken of me :)

    Insight

    Not long now Vengle!

    For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (Romans 8:18)

    And the Master will be here to remove the shackles of your flesh and clothe you with immortality.

    The hope is set before you is the same as it was for the Master...

    Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

    May God ease your sufferings.

    Insight
     
  3. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Don't fret obstinate. I carry the prize on that and you aren't going to win it from me. :lol:

    You said, "We haven’t come to an agreement on Rom 8:3 and Heb 2:14 whereby each of us can define clearly and concisely the Lord's body. But in time and with reading the Word of God, as you do, I believe these matters will open up."

    What Romans 8:3 is telling us is that the Law was weak because men were so self-centered (focused on pampering their flesh) that they did not have in them what it took to fulfill that Law and win the rights to its promises.

    That God solved by sending someone who was strong enough while in the flesh to fulfill that Law because he did not serve his flesh and was therefore free to completely follow the Law's spirit and so never violate it right up to the point of his baptism and anointing to a new role as the victor of that covenant.

    It is not difficult to understand.

    We make it difficult.

    Our thinking makes it harder than it has to be.
     
  4. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    I agree with what you have written although I dont think you are willing to go as far as Paul does.

    For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Rom 8:3NET

    I am sure if you allow your mind to sink into these words they will speak volumes of why Jesus was made in every way like his brethren....yet without his own personal sin.

    The question is not whether Jesus had the same "sinful flesh" as we, for that is plainly obvious for all to read - a better question is how did God condemn sin in and through his death?

    Insight
     
  5. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    i hate to break it to you Insight but I am not lying to you. It is you who are not seeing. I say that as a friend that can see it your way and because I can see it your way I know you are wrong.

    Consider again what you said: " I don't think you are willing to go as far as Paul does. ... For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Rom 8:3NET"

    You are assuming that the flesh is of itself sinful by nature. And because you assume that the flesh is itself sinful by nature (which Paul never says, nor any other Bible writer) you automatically assume that Christ also had to wear that sinful nature. But I will restate it with your view in mind as to how you should understand it instead of how you do.

    "For what the law could not do, in that the flesh (obsession of men which causes sin) made it weak, God sending his own Son in the likeness of that flesh which does that obsessing, and for the sin they bring by their obsession with the flesh, condemned the sin in the fleshly men that was there by their obsession with the flesh."

    God as my witness, that is how it is to be understood.

    Of course I could probably word it more compactly. :)

    Now compare my previous thought:

    "What Romans 8:3 is telling us is that the Law was weak because men were so self-centered (focused on pampering their flesh) that they did not have in them what it took to fulfill that Law and win the rights to its promises.

    That God solved by sending someone who was strong enough while in the flesh to fulfill that Law because he did not serve his flesh and was therefore free to completely follow the Law's spirit and so never violate it right up to the point of his baptism and anointing to a new role as the victor of that covenant."


    It might help you to understand that this concept is based on the same idea that if the eye is dark the whole body is dark.

    The flesh gets in our eyes and blinds us from seeing God and so keeps us apart from God's spirit.

    The literal flesh is not the problem.

    The misuse of our will to focus on self (on the flesh) is the problem.
     
  6. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    "Sin" is a synonym for human nature.

    Hence, the flesh is invariably regarded as unclean. It is written Vengle 'How can he be clean who is born of a woman?' (Job 25:4) 'Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one' (Job 14:4). 'What is man that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman that he should be righteous?

    Behold, God putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, who drinketh iniquity like water?' (Job 15:14,15,16)

    This view of sin in the flesh is enlightening in the things concerning Jesus. The apostle says, 'God made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin' (2Co 5:21); along with 'He sent his own son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh' (Rom 8:3) in the offering of his body once (Heb 10:10,12,14).

    Sin could not have been condemned in the body of Jesus, if it had not existed there.

    His body was as unclean as the bodies of those for whom he died; for he was born of a woman, and 'not one' can bring a clean body out of a defiled body; for 'that', says Jesus himself, 'which is born of the flesh is flesh' (John 3:6)

    Jesus understood his nature better than us both.

    For in it, that is his flesh "dwells no good thing"...Of course if you do not know "sinful flesh" how can you in your daily life put it off like Christ?

    Is sin inseparable from the body of flesh?

    In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Colossians 2:11)

    and

    For the wages of sin is death; Romans 6:23...and death occurs in one place alone - Flesh

    Therefore the Lords ministry began with a Baptism and ended with a baptism - a putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh

    But if you believe sin and flesh can be seperated and go against Mark 7, there are a lots and lots of verses that need explaining. Col 2:11 would be a good start!

    Insight
     
  7. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Look, this is getting ridiculous. Really this would be called Gnosticism because the idea is that Jesus is a representation of the way(IE: some form of hidden knowledge). It's more akin to something found in an obscure book in the Egyptian desert than in the Bible.

    Do you not know what propitiation means? It literally means in place of or to satisfy.

    I Corinthians 6:19-20
    Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

    Bought denotes a transaction. There's no representation here. Jesus bought us for a price.

    I'm not usually one to link to other sites, but Got Questions answers these pretty well just within the first few lines or paragraphs:

    http://www.gotquestions.org/propitiation.html
    http://www.gotquestions.org/substitutionary-atonement.html

    Again, you can spin it in a manner of representation, but that quickly becomes Gnosticism and not Christianity.
     
  8. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You only part see Insight.

    You said: "Sin" is a synonym for human nature.

    Hence, the flesh is invariably regarded as unclean. It is written Vengle 'How can he be clean who is born of a woman?' (Job 25:4) 'Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one' (Job 14:4). 'What is man that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman that he should be righteous?"

    No, absolutely not. Sin is in no way a synonym for human nature. You are grasping at straws knowing full well what the word means is to miss the mark of the standard God has set but failing to consider it.

    Job is correct. But what he said has nothing to do with a sin nature. You added that to the thought there.

    The woman who is unclean is unclean because of her corrupting herself because she was taught to be selfish from birth on up and look only at her flesh.

    So you tell me how such a woman as teacher of her child can keep that child from also corrupting itself?

    And that fits the context of Job as his accusers were impugning Jobs conduct as being the cause of his suffering.

    Exodus 32:7 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:"

    It is like Luke 6:40 says. The child cannot be above its teacher. It will at best equal its teacher.
     
  9. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Sin is synonym for human nature.

    Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted (flesh), when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed (in the flesh).
    Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
    Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved Vengle.

    Temptation - Lust - Enticed - sin - death

    What nature does this process work in?



    And yet Jesus benefited from his own death/blood.

    Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, (Hebrews 13:20)

    Hammerstone. With whose blood did God raise Jesus Christ from the dead?

    An animals? sheep, a goat or a bullock?
     
  10. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (Colossians 2:11)

    How do we put off the body of flesh? Certainly not literally. What that circumcision is provides the answer. It is the circumcision of our hearts so that they are made sensitive to the spirit of God's Word and His laws can then be written in our hearts.

    So how do we put off that body of flesh? We get it out of our eyes and cease it from being the main thing we live for satisfying.

    And we turn with our whole heart and our whole soul and our whole mind to loving God and seeing only Him, knowing that if we do that He will satisfy our needs as we could never do for ourselves.

    Nothing good dwells in us to warrant that worship of our self. Worship God. In Him dwells all that is really good and will never disappoint us.
     
  11. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    So you are saying Jesus never literally put of his flesh? That he is still under deaths power?
     
  12. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Now I do know you are not even trying.

    You know full well that James 1:15 is what happened to perfect Eve.

    And that Vengle business you keep adding reveals your haughtiness quite clearly.

    You are left to yourself.

    Now you are being a fool.

    I am withdrawing from you as you are demonstrating an evil spirit.
     
  13. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    All the name calling Vengle will not help.

    You made an untrue statement which is yet to be retracted.

    "The literal flesh is not the problem."

    I have proven clearly that flesh is the problem over and over with many verses contradicting your understanding.

    Jer 17:9 is the human heart/mind carnal and needing to be put to death.

    But you say the flesh is good and by extension holy and right!

    Insight

    I will cease Vengle as I do not want to agitate you any longer out of respect and love.

    Insight :)
     
  14. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    This will be my last comment to you before i place you on ignore.

    You know full well I said only good dwells in God. And therefore to look to the flesh thinking to find good is shear stupidity.

    You know full well in pasts posts I said you make too much of the literal flesh as it is of it self only what we make whether good or bad. It is just the shell that has to go along for the ride as our will dictates and our will is a facet of our spirit. Sin is always a spiritual malady.

    I believe you know that but have built a comfortable nest in you own religion and its beliefs and simply love it more than the truth.

    Have a nice life.
     
  15. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Yes, it is interesting that is what I see also. You would not be the one that brought it to my attention concerning the sin nature idea, would you? I cannot remember for the life of me who that was.

    I do remember I responded to them clarifying that I did not quite see that phrase the way so many do and realize that it is not a nature but a consequence of misuse of will. I said something to that effect anyway.

    Of course you can use the word nature in a broad context like speaking of the nature of an alcoholic. But that addresses qualities and actions which are the result of the illness as demonstrating that nature or logical course of that illness. Jesus would first have to have the illness of sin and then the nature would be his predictable qualities and actions of that illness of sin.

    There is no way to say that of Jesus. It breaks my heart to listen to anyone so set in believing that about Jesus because if he bore that nature it would mean he bore the qualities and actions of sin. And that cannot be true.
     
  16. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    Rom 8:3 remains unanswered
     
  17. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    As my conclusion to all I have posted concerning the ideas that are being purported by someone on this thread saying that Jesus had to have sin’s nature in his own body else he could not condemn it as he interprets of Romans 8:3, I am going to post a series of posts which outline the entire subject and all of its aspects.

    Beginning:

    Sin is not something that ever lays dormant. Sin is the act of violating God's Law and never lays dormant.

    You might think that cannot be true because of expressions in the Bible like as, “Their thoughts were sinful.” However, our thoughts are mental actions that we exercise spiritually in our mind. And what makes them sinful is that God told us not to allow such thoughts to be at work (exercising) in our mind and heart.

    Where did God tell us not to have such thoughts working in us? We could knit pick little examples but even a child should be able to see that in the Greatest Commandment we are told not to be exercising such thoughts, letting them freely work anywhere in us.

    Could one who faithfully loves God with his whole heart and faithfully loves God with his whole mind and faithfully loves God with his whole being or soul have such thoughts active in his mind and heart or anywhere in him or about him? The obvious answer is, “No.”

    Did Jesus faithfully love the Father with his whole heart and with his whole mind and his whole soul or being? Let the man be condemned who says no.

    And if Jesus always loved his Father with his whole heart and with his whole mind and with his whole soul, then where would this fanciful idea of a sin nature exist in him? The answer is obvious. It would have no place to exist in him, not even in his flesh as it would flee as Satan from any of us if we resisted it at its attempt to begin taking root in us.


    So then why does James say we can have such thoughts so long as we do not act upon them? Certainly James is not contradicting Jesus who said, Matthew 5:28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.”

    The answer is that James never said we could have such thoughts so long as we do not act upon them. James knows that our thoughts are the work of an undisciplined heart, mind, and soul which does not love God as complete as it ought to love God. That is what happened to perfect Eve; she let her love of God go lax.

    James merely warns us of mechanics that take place in the man who allows such thoughts free reign in his mind and heart. James does not want us to be ignorant of why God says we must love Him complete enough to allow no room for these thoughts to take root in us using the power of our minds to exercise them as lust which would result to have us finally perform their work in full.
    James 1:14-15 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

    How do our thoughts become lust except we let them take root to begin being exercised in us so as to produce desire? And how does lust conceive but by producing the actions that constitute sin in its completeness?

    This is why God could say to Cain as He did at Genesis 4:7 "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt (shalt = should, as in “now while you can”) rule over him."

    "Sin lieth at the door" meant merely that the potential for Cain to commit full blown sin was there due of his fallen continence causing him to exercise bad thoughts. That potential loomed real for Cain to act on that sin empowering it by exercising those thoughts so that this personified sin would be able to accomplish the full scope of all of its evil. But the type of sin which incurs death would not actually exist until Cain failed to dismiss that ill continence with its exercise of wrong thought. For then Cain would act upon it and all that it lustfully desired, just as we see at James 1:14-15.

    God was very kind to Cain there. God could have punished Cain simply for having those thoughts as it is at that point that Cain merely was guilty of having committed the sin that does not incur death, as 1 John 5:17 speaks concerning. Take a note of that, as I have just revealed to you what the Holy Spirit has told me as to what that sin which does not incur death really is. Thus you can now see this pertains to the stage that sin is at in its travel to completion.

    More to come.

    1 Thessalonians 4:1 "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more."
     
  18. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:8)

    The GK is simply "IN the flesh", which is a proper rendering of Rom 8: 8,9, judged simply on the Greek words alone.

    But the context and meaning require that "in the flesh" means not "having human nature", but (Rom 8:5,6,7) having a mind "inclined towards the flesh".

    In the same way Paul writes of the time "when we were in the flesh" (Rom 7:5) as though that state had been left behind, while, of course, in the literal sense it has not… yet.

    For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

    What Law?
     
  19. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Romans 7:4 "Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the Old Law Covenant, by the body of Christ; that you may belong to another, who is risen again from the dead, that we may bring forth fruit to God.
    5 For when we were [walking] in the flesh [in our old frame of mind], the passions of sins, which were by the Old Law Covenant, did work [did work, as in past tense] in our members, to bring forth fruit unto death.
    6 But now we are loosed from the OLD Law Covenant of death [to us for our sins], [freed from that Old Law] wherein we were detained (see Galatians 3:23); so that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    7 What shall we say, then? Is the Old Law Covenant sin? God forbid. But I do not know sin, but by the Old Law Covenant; for I had not known concupiscence, if the Old Law Covenant did not say: Thou shalt not covet."


    Now let's state it more to our modern ability to understand.

    Romans 7:4 "Therefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to that Old Law Covenant by the body of Christ. This is so that you may belong to another, who is risen again from the dead, that we together with him may bring forth fruit to God.
    5 For when we in the past were walking in our old fleshly frame of mind we were allowing the passions of sins which were by that Old Law Covenant condemned, to work in our members so that Old Law Covenant punished the fruit we brought forth with death.
    6 But now we are loosed from the OLD Law Covenant which was about punishment for our sins by delivering death to us for our sins. We are freed from that Old Law wherein we were being detained (see Galatians 3:23); so that we should now serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    7 What shall we say, then? Is the Old Law Covenant sin? God forbid. But I did not know sin completely as the punishment for it was something I could have easily discounted, but for the Old Law Covenant; for I would have not known concupiscence and the reality of the consequences it brings to me if the Old Law Covenant did not say: Thou shalt not covet and follow that up with the threat of death to me.

    And now just a little help for those who rather innocently have difficulty perceiving how I could see it as I worded it of the Holy Spirit in me in the second quote of it.

    To know conspicuousness is not just to know the meaning of the word. To think it means just to the meaning of the word would be shallow and devoid of true understanding.

    It is like saying to someone who speaks of Sally Hastings, "Oh, I know her!" But do you really know her? Do you know her close enough to know what she believes and holds onto with conviction so that you could say to someone, "She would never do that!" if they falsely accused her?

    Paul is not speaking shallowly of knowing conspicuousness, either. He is talking about now knowing conspicuousness with all of its fruits.

    And the Old Law Covenant forced him to have to see that about conspicuousness by its threat of death for that sin.

    We need to wake up and begin thinking like adults instead of children so that we can see these things.

    The haughty will never do that as they are driven by another spirit.

    Let us not be.

    May God help you. And He will if you are humble.
     
  20. Insight

    Insight New Member

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    That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)

    Though we all have sin’s flesh, another walk is required, not to 'earn' salvation, but to demonstrate our faith in Christ's monumental work of redemption.

    One who fulfilled the Law of Moses perfectly.

    For it righteously required death as a punishment for sin. All men have sinned (Rom 3:23), and death has passed upon all men (Rom 5:12). The law of Moses, being holy and just and good (Rom 7:12), righteously required death as a punishment for sin (Rom 8:4).

    So it was in death, that sin's power would be destroyed.

    Sin could not have been condemned in the body of Jesus, if it had not existed there.

    Romans 8:3 is still unanswered
     
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