Christ only died for past sins...

[Tong2020]

……There is security for the elect, but the elect are not those who prayed a sinner's prayer. The elect are those that God chose to save before the foundation of the earth. He is all knowing, so God knows who will be saved when they die…..

That’s right, there is security for the elect. And yes, the elect are those that God chose for salvation even before the foundation of the world. So, you do know and believe the truth of the assurance of God’s salvation.

Tong
R3993

 

[Tong2020]

We must either believe what the Bible teaches, or rely on human reasoning to discount what it says as I was surprised to see that you have done.

2 Peter 1:9 does not say past, present and future sins as is commonly, but unscripturally misrepresented. It says old sins.

9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

The passage must not likewise be mistaken to teach that Jesus did not die for future sins. For His death was a once and for all sacrifice for sin. It would be kinda absurd to say that they were cleansed from their future sins, right? As we were cleansed from our sins committed prior to our salvation, with regards sins we commit in the future, we also are cleansed as they in time become to be our past/old sins, on account of the same sacrificial death of Jesus Christ some 2000 years ago. Else, if Jesus’ sacrifice does not account for future sins, how can any future sin be forgiven when there is no sacrifice left for sin?

….You know that as well as I do, so that is why they apply the teaching of imputed righteousness into the New Covenant, when it was for those who obeyed in the Old Testament, like Abraham…..

I disagree. Scripture is clear that righteousness imputed to Abraham was not exclusive for him only. In fact, scriptures says it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us.

Tong
R3994

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to pay for all the sins of the entire world, but it does not do everyone good.>>>

With all due respect, I disagree. I believe that all that Jesus Christ did was good and does good to every man.

Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross had accomplished many things and all of them are good to mankind. There are no conditions. One way or another, His works had done and does everybody good.

<<<When a person gets saved, all past sins are washed away. In addition, sins done in error are washed away. What is not washed away are sins done on purpose after getting saved. >>>

I do not have the same view. I see a problem with that view. Consider the past sins. Consider the sins committed intentionally and willfully in the past. The view you hold would require one to remember each and all of them to be said to acknowledge them and admit his guilt regarding them, that he may ask for God’s forgiveness to be forgiven of them. My view on the other hand is that, Christ died for all of my sins, be they intentional or not, knowingly or not. So that at the time I was converted and was granted repentance by God, I was forgiven by God, on account of what Christ had done for me, through His sacrifice on the cross. For the sins that I committed that were the future to my having been forgiven at the time of my conversion and repentance, Christ had also covered in His sacrifice on the cross some 2000 years ago. For Christ will not die again for such sins. Some might argue why we still need to confess and ask God for forgiveness regarding such sins. And why not? Not that they were covered by the blood of Christ even then, as such were forgiven already, that it would mean we don’t have to repent of them as though it matters not. It does matter. For there are unpleasant and evil consequences that sin brings, even to the saved, that affects not only himself but even his loved ones and others. Besides, that is the will of God for His erring children.

As to the matter of sinning willfully with reference to Hebrews 10:26, a separate and dedicated thread on that I would say would be nice. As a general comment regarding that, there is issue as to whether that applies or not to genuine Believers or not. But yes, that part of scriptures speaks a lot about the sacrifice of Christ.

And regarding the book of Romans, a separate thread would also be nice.

My view does not require that I remember every single sin I ever committed to receive forgiveness. If I sin by mistake, that sin is under the blood. Only sins that I do knowingly are not under the blood. I know if I do something on purpose. In addition to that, we are taught in the Lord's prayer to ask forgiveness for any sins we have committed, as we forgive those who trespassed against us. We should all do that every day. Another thing about that is the fact that if we want the Lord's forgiveness, we must forgive others. If God will not forgive us, we cannot get to heaven, and Jesus said if we do not forgive others, he will not forgive us. There are many things professing Christians do that the Bible emphatically says will keep anyone out of heaven.

<<<My view does not require that I remember every single sin I ever committed to receive forgiveness. If I sin by mistake, that sin is under the blood. Only sins that I do knowingly are not under the blood. I know if I do something on purpose.>>>

I think it does. Unless you are claiming that you don’t forget all the sins you committed knowingly. Take for example you knowingly lied to day. And for some reason you failed to confess your sin and ask God to forgive you of it. And the next day you forgot and the next day……until you forgotten about it. Isn’t it that in your view, that sin then remains not forgiven?

Tong
R3995

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I do not get your question “Based on what?”

<<<I do not see anywhere in scripture that indicates that if the chastisement does not work, that person will not wind up in hell.>>>

It’s I think because God does not fail. God’s chastisement is ever effective and accomplishes its intent on the erring legitimate child of God.

That is nothing but speculation and a personal opinion. I do not see anywhere in scripture that indicates that everyone who is chastised repents. I do not know of anywhere in scripture where it says that if a person does not change after being chastised, they do not wind up in hell, even if they were saved at some time in their life.

What is speculation that you refer to in my post? That God never fails?

Well, God never fails, at least that is my knowledge of God, who is heaven, Him who sent Jesus Christ some 2000 years ago, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the apostles. And I believe what God’s words tells me more than anything, more than even what my human eyes tells me.

You seem to have the view that God could fail in His chastisement of His erring children. And that even while you do not find any scriptures that says God could be a failure, more so, specifically in that regard.

Tong
R3996

 

[CharismaticLady]

we also are cleansed as they in time become to be our past/old sins

I don't know who thought that up, but I've heard pastors on the radio say the same thing. It isn't the Truth of the Gospel. The gospel is Jesus was manifest to take away our sin and in Him there is no sin. What that means is when Jesus makes us born again, He places His laws of Love inside us to become our new nature. We have the same nature that Jesus had on earth. Did He want to sin? Of course not, and His Spirit inside us has no desire to sin either. Therefore, there is no such thing as future sins. And I can testify that that is true.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
A clarification. I was actually talking about a case of an unsaved murderer and rapist. I was asking if such a one can be saved by God. I was not really asking if God will or will not save him, when he repents or not.

Here’s a passage relevant to that.

Eph. 1:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Now, we see there that God had done that for us even when we were murderers, fornicators, liars, thieves, slanderers, etc. And did He do that unto us? Was it because of what good and righteousness we have done? The passage tells is why. It is one, because God is rich in mercy. Another is because of His great love with which He loved us.

Now, let’s consider the Christian, that is, the child of God. Would you say that one who claims to be a Christian is a legitimate child of God, if he willfully and continually live in sin, murdering, stealing, fornicating, raping, lying, etc.? I won’t.

With regards what you say @Blood Bought 1953 believes, I will let him take that up with you.

I believe that God will forgive any repentant sinner for anything if they turn to Jesus Christ. I do not believe that a person who lives in a lifestyle of willful sin will go to heaven, whether they believe in Jesus or not.

Forget about BB. Do you believe that if a professing Christian is a rapist and murderer and that person never repents they will go to heaven when they die, simply because they believe?

<<<Do you believe that if a professing Christian is a rapist and murderer and that person never repents they will go to heaven when they die, simply because they believe?>>>

Pardon me but I could not answer that with a simple yes or no.

A professing Christian may or may not be a true believer. If he isn’t, there is not the issue of him going to heaven or not, of he is a murderer or a rapist. For sure he will not go to heaven, whether he repents and stop being a murder or rapist. That which could save him is not that, but is Jesus Christ.

Having said that, with regards true believers, don’t believe that there could be such a case. For all true believers, they have been predestined by God to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. Now, Jesus Christ is not anything like that.

Tong
R3997

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The passage simply isn’t talking about the saved Christian, losing his salvation.

The passage absolutely is talking about saved Christians losing salvation. There is no way you can prove otherwise, so it comes down to us disagreeing.

I will try to show that to you. And I’ll leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit, as it ought to be like so.

2 Pet.2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Who do you say are the “these” in those passages?

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Now, who are the “they” in verse 20? Are they not the “these” in v.12 & 17?

Now, the mistake is often coming from the reading of v.20, on the phrase “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”. Many seems to fail to read “For if”. Such makes the statement hypothetical. Meaning, that which follows the “For if” is hypothetical only. And this is corroborated by what Peter said in v.12 concerning them, that is, they speak evil of the things they do not understand. This tells us that these people actually do not understand anything about what they teach about the gospel or about the Lord Jesus Christ. And such indicates that they are not true believers. For how can they truly believe and be true believers when they know not truth?

Tong
R3998

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

ou cannot correct me because you do not understand the scriptures. I have already seen that by the way you have misinterpreted things. My interpretation is correct, and all you can do is play a game of us going back and forth saying the other person is wrong. I also interpreted the passage in 2 Peter right. It is not just speaking of people that only had intellectual knowledge, but it is speaking of people genuinely saved. Even if you want to continue to disagree, you cannot prove that you are right. Those people had been washed. The only way that was possible was through the blood of Jesus.

No again, only your deliberate blindness - you make many baseless assumptions unfounded by any legitimate read of scripture and then are being obstinate and intellectually dishonest.

I do not have to give a scripture to show where a true Christian lost salvation, as you cannot give any Biblical proof they cannot lose salvation.

I know you don't and yes actually I can.

It is made clear even that the sorcerer is having his body to Satan but his soul shall be saved but even Jesus states that "no one" can take those of Him from him ( no one includes the individual and their capacity for sin)

You and many others create this "legalistic" argument based on twisted interpretations of English translations without serious proper study.

All we will do is go back and forth with you claiming you are correcting me, and me saying I am interpreting things correctly and you are wrong. I have been through this before. The biggest difference is that I do not let people get away with supposedly correcting me. Someone having an alternative interpretation does not make them right. Most of the OSAS crowd is used to people just accepting what they say when they just come up with a lame excuse for what the verses supposedly mean. I will not accept that.

Get used to being corrected, there will be lots more in your future

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
we also are cleansed as they in time become to be our past/old sins

I don't know who thought that up, but I've heard pastors on the radio say the same thing. It isn't the Truth of the Gospel.

That’s not coming from the teachings of any one in the radio or print. It’s just coming from my reading appreciation of the scriptures.

I certainly do not intend to sin any second now, nor any day from now, nor in the remaining days of my earthly life. I certainly do not know what my future acts will be. But what I am certain about is that, there is no sinful act that I might be committing, that Jesus did not die for some 2000 years ago.

The gospel is Jesus was manifest to take away our sin and in Him there is no sin. What that means is when Jesus makes us born again, He places His laws of Love inside us to become our new nature. We have the same nature that Jesus had on earth. Did He want to sin? Of course not, and His Spirit inside us has no desire to sin either. Therefore, there is no such thing as future sins. And I can testify that that is true.

If you think you are right now conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, I could only want that to be true. If that is the case with you, you would be absolutely certain that you won’t be committing a single sin in the future. That would imply a lot of things, right? That you won’t be needing Jesus Christ as High priest and advocate to the Father, to mention a few.

You seem to claim that you now presently have the same nature that Jesus had on earth. Was not Jesus a perfect man and at the same time perfectly God when He was on earth? Are you referring to that? Please expound on what you mean when you say you have the same nature as Jesus Christ had on earth.

Tong
R3999

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

You seem to claim that you now presently have the same nature that Jesus had on earth. Was not Jesus a perfect man and at the same time perfectly God when He was on earth? Are you referring to that? Please expound on what you mean when you say you have the same nature as Jesus Christ had on earth.

Respectfully, I would ask what is the definition of "nature" you are using as I see most of your thoughts are very spot on but this one concerns me a bit. May be nothing too. Please elaborate.

 

[Tong2020]

Respectfully, I would ask what is the definition of "nature" you are using as I see most of your thoughts are very spot on but this one concerns me a bit. May be nothing too. Please elaborate.

Exactly why I asked CL what she meant by it. For I might be mistaking it for:

phusis: nature

nature:

The set of inherent characteristics or properties that distinguish something.

Tong
R4001

 

[CharismaticLady]

That’s not coming from the teachings of any one in the radio or print. It’s just coming from my reading appreciation of the scriptures.

I certainly do not intend to sin any second now, nor any day from now, nor in the remaining days of my earthly life. I certainly do not know what my future acts will be. But what I am certain about is that, there is no sinful act that I might be committing, that Jesus did not die for some 2000 years ago.



If you think you are right now conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, I could only want that to be true. If that is the case with you, you would be absolutely certain that you won’t be committing a single sin in the future. That would imply a lot of things, right? That you won’t be needing Jesus Christ as High priest and advocate to the Father, to mention a few.

You seem to claim that you now presently have the same nature that Jesus had on earth. Was not Jesus a perfect man and at the same time perfectly God when He was on earth? Are you referring to that? Please expound on what you mean when you say you have the same nature as Jesus Christ had on earth.

Tong
R3999

Hi Tong.

We always need Jesus, and love Him more and more as the relationship grows stronger throughut our lives. It is called abiding in Him, and He in us.

There is an accusation called sinless perfection. That is not what I teach. They are two different steps.

When we come to Jesus and repent of our inability to be righteous and know He is stronger and need His power inside us, that is when He cleanses us of all unrighteousness, and we experience the supernatural event of being baptized in the Holy Spirit. He creates a new nature and we become new creations. The desire to willfully commit sins of lawlessness against God's moral laws is not in this new nature. THAT is why we don't commit sins in the present and future. We have no desire to. Jesus has literally taken away our sin, and there is no sin in Him. Again, that is when we abide in Him. This is sinlessness.

He also plants the fruit of the Spirit in us, and like John 15, He prunes us so we grow fuller. That is the process of perfection. It is a lifetime process, to mature the fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-7 shows these steps. I'm including the rest of the verses:

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. ("Was" is past tense and doesn't fit your future old sins theory that you wouldn't be committing if you don't stumble.)

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Now, Tong, during this process of growing in the fruit of the Spirit, some of the fruit will still be immature and need of pruning or chastisement, like self-control, and brotherly kindness to name just two. Immature outbursts are called trespasses we commit against each other. What God requires is that we forgive each other these outbursts and trespasses, otherwise He won't forgive us our own. But if we do stay reconciled to one another the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all these sins, keeping us sinless. 1 John 1:7; Matthew 6:14-15.

 

[Instant]

Peter was talking and referring to false teachers who are among them and those who are with them and who follow them.



There are none that I know of.

But there are certainly scriptures that speaks about the certainty of one’s salvation in Christ Jesus. One such is found in Romans 8:38-39.


With regards Judas Iscariot, while he was chosen to be one of Jesus’ disciples, we learn from Jesus himself the matter about him (Judas). Jesus knew about him. Jesus obviously could not have chosen to save him.

With regards the prodigal son, I’d say such a take on that is a misuse of the parable. For one, the son in the parable was not a story about a son who was saved, who later lost it and then saved again.

With regards Ananias and Sapphira, their case was not a case of them losing salvation.

Tong
R3992

You are welcome to your opinion, but that is all it is. You interpret things in a way that fits your doctrinal beliefs. You make the text agree with you no matter if it is a stretch or not. Ananias and Sapphira do appear to have lost salvation. The prodigal son was about a child of God being saved, lost and saved again. Until we all started pointing out that little detail about him being lost and dead and then found and "alive again," those promoting OSAS used to use that parable to claim he was always a son and saved. They had to back away from that and now claim it has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[Instant]

That’s right, there is security for the elect. And yes, the elect are those that God chose for salvation even before the foundation of the world. So, you do know and believe the truth of the assurance of God’s salvation.

Tong
R3993

Yes and no. We do not have the assurance we are the elect. Only God knows who they are. We do not have that assurance because we do not know what may happen in our future. We could backslide and never return. So long as we are following Jesus, we all have security, but nobody that continues in willful sin is going to heaven.

 

[Instant]

What is speculation that you refer to in my post? That God never fails?

Well, God never fails, at least that is my knowledge of God, who is heaven, Him who sent Jesus Christ some 2000 years ago, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and the apostles. And I believe what God’s words tells me more than anything, more than even what my human eyes tells me.

You seem to have the view that God could fail in His chastisement of His erring children. And that even while you do not find any scriptures that says God could be a failure, more so, specifically in that regard.

Tong
R3996

That is not failure. God does not fail because someone does not receive correction. What God is doing is chastising to give people a chance to repent. You are assuming it is failure if they do not repent. I do not look at it like that.

 

[Instant]

I will try to show that to you. And I’ll leave the rest up to the Holy Spirit, as it ought to be like so.

2 Pet.2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

2 Peter 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.

Who do you say are the “these” in those passages?

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Now, who are the “they” in verse 20? Are they not the “these” in v.12 & 17?

Now, the mistake is often coming from the reading of v.20, on the phrase “For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ”. Many seems to fail to read “For if”. Such makes the statement hypothetical. Meaning, that which follows the “For if” is hypothetical only. And this is corroborated by what Peter said in v.12 concerning them, that is, they speak evil of the things they do not understand. This tells us that these people actually do not understand anything about what they teach about the gospel or about the Lord Jesus Christ. And such indicates that they are not true believers. For how can they truly believe and be true believers when they know not truth?

Tong
R3998

It is clearly hypothetical, but the point he is making is that if someone is saved and then returns to their old sinful lifestyle, their final end is worse than if they had never been saved. This is obvious to everyone except those trying to twist the text into knots to defend unconditional security.

 

[Instant]

No again, only your deliberate blindness - you make many baseless assumptions unfounded by any legitimate read of scripture and then are being obstinate and intellectually dishonest.



I know you don't and yes actually I can.

It is made clear even that the sorcerer is having his body to Satan but his soul shall be saved but even Jesus states that "no one" can take those of Him from him ( no one includes the individual and their capacity for sin)

You and many others create this "legalistic" argument based on twisted interpretations of English translations without serious proper study.



Get used to being corrected, there will be lots more in your future

The one being intellectually and factually dishonest is you, not me. You are trying to force the Bible to agree with your false unconditional security doctrine. The scripture about the sinner in Corinth is not saying the person will be saved. What it is saying is that by turning the person over to Satan for the destruction of the body, the hope is they will repent and get saved. It is not saying they will be saved as false teachers claim. In addition to all of this, there is nothing in the Bible saying anything about legalism. That is another false doctrine used by false teachers to demonize anyone that says anything is required of us. Not only have I read the Bible more than 20 times cover to cover, but I have studied it for years, sought God for the proper interpretation for decades, but I have also carefully studied much of the Bible verse by verse, even looking up the words in a Greek Dictionary. I have studied it carefully, but unlike the false teachers, I did not do it with the assistance of the false god Hermes, but I sought the Holy Spirit for His leading. Most false teachers turn to Hermeneutics, which is a pagan method of interpreting literature. Even they do not always follow their own rules, as they can't.

 

[friend of]

My view does not require that I remember every single sin I ever committed to receive forgiveness. If I sin by mistake, that sin is under the blood. Only sins that I do knowingly are not under the blood

If any sin you commit is not under the blood, they are on your back weighing you down to hell. What are you to do with unforgiven sin in your life? How are you to overcome it? By your own power?

 

[friend of]

Even the puritans accepted the fact that they were sinners.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

The one being intellectually and factually dishonest is you, not me. You are trying to force the Bible to agree with your false unconditional security doctrine. The scripture about the sinner in Corinth is not saying the person will be saved. What it is saying is that by turning the person over to Satan for the destruction of the body, the hope is they will repent and get saved. It is not saying they will be saved as false teachers claim. In addition to all of this, there is nothing in the Bible saying anything about legalism. That is another false doctrine used by false teachers to demonize anyone that says anything is required of us. Not only have I read the Bible more than 20 times cover to cover, but I have studied it for years, sought God for the proper interpretation for decades, but I have also carefully studied much of the Bible verse by verse, even looking up the words in a Greek Dictionary. I have studied it carefully, but unlike the false teachers, I did not do it with the assistance of the false god Hermes, but I sought the Holy Spirit for His leading. Most false teachers turn to Hermeneutics, which is a pagan method of interpreting literature. Even they do not always follow their own rules, as they can't.

No, not at all. You selectively twist scripture and add subtle inferences simply not there as you just did with Corinthians. Is does specifically say his soul will be saved as I informed you. Ignorance is one thing but you are deliberate in your denial. Why?

Then you use secular straw man arguments against points not made playing with big words as if it add legitimacy to your error which it doesn't.