Christ only died for past sins...

[BloodBought 1953]

We know that things like Paul mentions in Galatians chapter 5:19-21 are not pleasing to God, and are not "loving for Him." Can we agree with Paul and the Bible that if a person is guilty of adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like, they do not love God and are going to hell, even if they claim to be saved? Paul says "they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God," in Galatians 5:21. Can we come in agreement with Paul? Can we agree that if a person were claiming to be saved, and went around committing rape and murder, they will not go to heaven unless they repent?

I got a Promise from Jesus that gives me rest when it comes to troubling verses like these....Jesus said that if I simply Believed in Him I * ALREADY HAVE* Eternal Life and that I would * NEVER” come under Condemnation .....

Therefore, these lists must pertain to those that do NOT Believe in Jesus.......If the Bible said you can’t hiccup more that twenty times a day and inherit the Kingdom, the Onus is on God to see that either that does NOT happen or if it DOES happen, the Blood has it covered.....it’s covered by Grace....

Context is everything —- in the very next chapter, Paul tells how to handle a Believer “ caught up in Sin”—— he’s very likely to have committed one of the sins that Paul has warned about.....Is this back- sliding Believer told that he must Repent? Is it said anywhere that he no longer can inherit the Kingdom? No.These types, “ caught in the very act of doing wrong” are to be told humbly by others to stop what they are doing and to do it meekly because THEY might be the guilty party the next time.....Sounds like there are plenty of sins and plenty of “opportunities” for sin to go around ....

All Christians have been guilty of doing some of the wrongs that are these lists since they got Saved.....The Believers Sins are covered by Grace....the Unbeliever is on his own......Regardless, Jesus has promised to present His Children, the Believers , before God as “Blameless” ....He will see to it that we either do not commit those sins or if we do , they are Forgiven, under the Blood, covered by Grace and they are “remembered no more” by God ....Paul’s list is a list of sins—- Jesus died for the sins of the entire world..... The Bible clearly states that because of what Jesus did for us at the Cross, “ God is not counting our sins against us” anymore . If one has “ cashed in” to what Jesus for the world did by putting their total Trust in His Blood to Save them, they will not fail to “ inherit the Kingdom”.....It Must be the case that Paul is referring to Unbelievers.....THEY are the ones who will not inherit the Kingdom....
....

 

[Tong2020]

You miss the point ......If you “ Love God” you will “ DO” the the things that are pleasing in His sight.....you “ WILL” love for Him.....it will be automatic.....

Yes. It will be the new nature of the new creature in Christ that will be manifested. Loving God and others is natural to us. It is as though such commandment no longer comes to him as a commandment, but as something that is inherent in him. His natural pleasure is in loving God and others
unlike before he was created anew, where his natural pleasure is doing the natural thing he does, that is, the lust of the flesh.

Loving God and others is not something that any fallen man could genuinely do out of his own will and ability. Such is the evidence of God’s saving work in and on him. As Paul wrote it to the church in Ephesus, concerning the genuine Christians, that they are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

Yes, we who are still alive, are still in this corrupted and mortal body, which Paul calls the body of death. Paul said that sin dwells in our flesh, and that because of that we are still found at times as committing sin. So that we are to put up a good fight against that concerning our present bodies. And we can be victorious, for God had given us the Holy Spirit, even to dwell in us, who is our power to overcome. Be patient, for (thanks be to God) in the appointed time, God will change our body with an incorruptible and immortal body. Praise God!

Tong
R3955

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<….the Bible makes it clear that any that continue in a sinful lifestyle shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. This is stated more than once. That is absolute proof that salvation is conditional. >>>

Not that such is absolute proof that salvation is conditional in that sense. Rather, that may well be evidence to show the heart of one who profess and claims to be a child of God, as perhaps not truly converted and not truly a legitimate child of God.

When God, according to the counsel of His will, saves a person from going to hell, would God not accomplish it and fail?

Can God give mercy to whom He wills to give mercy? Can God give grace to whom He wills to give grace?

Would God force a person of anything or to doing anything against the person’s will in the course of His saving him? Nope.

Salvation is not conditional on man’s deeds or works. Nor salvation depends on and is of man. Scriptures is clear, that salvation is of God and by God. That salvation is by grace, and that through faith.

Thanks be to God (in no way and not in any sense, thanks be to me nor to anyone else), that I have come to have faith in God, the Father, and in Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ, the Son, and in the Holy Spirit, whom He sent and gave to dwell in me and be my Helper/Comforter.

Glory be to God! Thanks be to God!

It really does not make a lot of difference. The Bible makes it clear that anyone living after the flesh is not going to heaven. Paul gives examples of what living after the flesh is like. He gives a laundry list of sins, and says those who commit these sins will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. If you want to say these people were never saved, fine. The main point I am making is that if someone is a fornicator or a thief, to give a couple of examples, they are not going to heaven unless they repent, even if they claim to have been saved. Paul says that multiple times. Theological arguments over losing salvation is just a smoke screen in a way to distract from the real issue over a changed life verses someone who still lives like the devil. Is there any evidence a person has been saved? If not, they need to go back to the altar and come to a place of genuine repentance.

<<<The Bible makes it clear that anyone living after the flesh is not going to heaven. Paul gives examples of what living after the flesh is like. He gives a laundry list of sins, and says those who commit these sins will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. >>>

I’d like to share this. From the outside, we can easily see who are murders, fornicators/adulterers, thieves, and the rest of laundry list you refer to that Paul gave, but not from within. One who hates a brother is a murder; one who looks lustfully towards another is an adulterer/fornicator; one who covets the goods of another is a thief. We don’t see such things that goes about within a man.

Not that Paul is saying that, the Christian, by the doing of those things, will not be saved or as others like to put it, will lose their salvation. Nor was he saying that, the Christian, by the NOT doing of those things, will be saved or as others like to put it, will not lose his salvation. For the gospel of salvation that Paul preached is Christ Jesus, not what things to do or not do.

<<<The main point I am making is that if someone is a fornicator or a thief, to give a couple of examples, they are not going to heaven unless they repent, even if they claim to have been saved. >>>

Truth is there somewhere I have to say. But the way it goes, it seems to impress that one is saved on the basis of his deeds and works, and what he does about what he thinks would get himself saved, such as repenting. All sounds good and looks reasonable to any man, even to the natural man.

But the Christian should make no mistake regarding that. For there is nothing that man can do to save himself, Christian or not, nor can any man do to earn the salvation of God. For it is God who saves and is Him who works that out in and on the man He is saving. It God who saves, and His salvation is by grace, and does it through faith, not through something else.

If a former murderer, fornicator, thief, is being saved by God, He will make that murderer a murderer no more, that fornicator, a fornicator no more, that thief a thief no more. See, it is not we who makes the change, but God. And this change happen to them whom God is saving, in various ways and in different times and pace. And that change, God (not man) does in the heart within, which later manifest in the outside of the man. And God does that, not in any way by force as some would put up as an argument against this truth.

Tong
R3956

 

[Instant]

I got a Promise from Jesus that gives me rest when it comes to troubling verses like these....Jesus said that if I simply Believed in Him I * ALREADY HAVE* Eternal Life and that I would * NEVER” come under Condemnation .....

Therefore, these lists must pertain to those that do NOT Believe in Jesus.......If the Bible said you can’t hiccup more that twenty times a day and inherit the Kingdom, the Onus is on God to see that either that does NOT happen or if it DOES happen, the Blood has it covered.....it’s covered by Grace....

Context is everything —- in the very next chapter, Paul tells how to handle a Believer “ caught up in Sin”—— he’s very likely to have committed one of the sins that Paul has warned about.....Is this back- sliding Believer told that he must Repent? Is it said anywhere that he no longer can inherit the Kingdom? No.These types, “ caught in the very act of doing wrong” are to be told humbly by others to stop what they are doing and to do it meekly because THEY might be the guilty party the next time.....Sounds like there are plenty of sins and plenty of “opportunities” for sin to go around ....

All Christians have been guilty of doing some of the wrongs that are these lists since they got Saved.....The Believers Sins are covered by Grace....the Unbeliever is on his own......Regardless, Jesus has promised to present His Children, the Believers , before God as “Blameless” ....He will see to it that we either do not commit those sins or if we do , they are Forgiven, under the Blood, covered by Grace and they are “remembered no more” by God ....Paul’s list is a list of sins—- Jesus died for the sins of the entire world..... The Bible clearly states that because of what Jesus did for us at the Cross, “ God is not counting our sins against us” anymore . If one has “ cashed in” to what Jesus for the world did by putting their total Trust in His Blood to Save them, they will not fail to “ inherit the Kingdom”.....It Must be the case that Paul is referring to Unbelievers.....THEY are the ones who will not inherit the Kingdom....
....

When Jesus said we have eternal life because we believe in Him, he also made it clear that those who believe on Him obey Him. That is what you are not understanding. True faith brings about change in lifestyle. A person who is a true believer becomes Jesus' disciple and no longer continues in a sinful lifestyle. Those who claim to believe in Jesus and still continue in sin do not believe in the way the Bible means believe. You are basically saying that when someone shows you scriptures that say you will not get to heaven if you live in sin, you ignore it because you choose to believe they cannot possibly apply to you. They must only apply to others. You are taking quite a gamble.

The Bible does not promise anywhere that if a believer commits those sins that God is not counting those sins against us. The Bible does not say that if we commit those sins, they are "forgiven, under the blood, covered by grace and remembered no more." If it does say all of that, how about posting all the scriptures that teach that. They do not exist. They only exist in the imagination of people that promote unconditional security, a doctrine never taught in the Bible. Again, here is your response to what I asked you about those scriptures, You say, "they must be referring to unbelievers." It never once says they only apply to unbelievers. Of course, we could say that many calling themselves believers are really unbelievers, and their sinful lifestyle proves it.

 

[Instant]

<<<The Bible makes it clear that anyone living after the flesh is not going to heaven. Paul gives examples of what living after the flesh is like. He gives a laundry list of sins, and says those who commit these sins will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. >>>

I’d like to share this. From the outside, we can easily see who are murders, fornicators/adulterers, thieves, and the rest of laundry list you refer to that Paul gave, but not from within. One who hates a brother is a murder; one who looks lustfully towards another is an adulterer/fornicator; one who covets the goods of another is a thief. We don’t see such things that goes about within a man.

Not that Paul is saying that, the Christian, by the doing of those things, will not be saved or as others like to put it, will lose their salvation. Nor was he saying that, the Christian, by the NOT doing of those things, will be saved or as others like to put it, will not lose his salvation. For the gospel of salvation that Paul preached is Christ Jesus, not what things to do or not do.

<<<The main point I am making is that if someone is a fornicator or a thief, to give a couple of examples, they are not going to heaven unless they repent, even if they claim to have been saved. >>>

Truth is there somewhere I have to say. But the way it goes, it seems to impress that one is saved on the basis of his deeds and works, and what he does about what he thinks would get himself saved, such as repenting. All sounds good and looks reasonable to any man, even to the natural man.

But the Christian should make no mistake regarding that. For there is nothing that man can do to save himself, Christian or not, nor can any man do to earn the salvation of God. For it is God who saves and is Him who works that out in and on the man He is saving. It God who saves, and His salvation is by grace, and does it through faith, not through something else.

If a former murderer, fornicator, thief, is being saved by God, He will make that murderer a murderer no more, that fornicator, a fornicator no more, that thief a thief no more. See, it is not we who makes the change, but God. And this change happen to them whom God is saving, in various ways and in different times and pace. And that change, God (not man) does in the heart within, which later manifest in the outside of the man. And God does that, not in any way by force as some would put up as an argument against this truth.

Tong
R3956

There is no question that simply turning from sin will not save a person. They will still never be able to save themselves. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can wash away the old sins, and even new ones done in error. If a Christian were to commit some terrible sin like murder, they would have to repent, but it would still require the blood of Jesus to wash that sin away. That means that it requires grace for anyone to be saved, and the only way to be reconciled to the Father is through faith in Jesus Christ

As far as Romans goes, and what Paul spoke of about the struggle of the flesh, he was not speaking of a "Christian struggle," as many suppose, but he was speaking of what it is like for those trying to live under the law. They could not do it no matter how hard they tried. He was reflecting back on his life before turning to Jesus.

 

[Tong2020]

There is no question that simply turning from sin will not save a person. They will still never be able to save themselves. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can wash away the old sins, and even new ones done in error. If a Christian were to commit some terrible sin like murder, they would have to repent, but it would still require the blood of Jesus to wash that sin away. That means that it requires grace for anyone to be saved, and the only way to be reconciled to the Father is through faith in Jesus Christ

The Christian, at the time of his conversion, had come to repentance unto God and towards faith in Christ Jesus, as I understand. That he then, had also repented of his sins and even had made a promise, to sin no more. When the Christian have been baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, he is cleansed of all his sins. He is under grace , having been reconciled to God, on account of Jesus Christ, and not on anything else. That said, needless to say, that while he is in the love of Christ, he remains to be under such grace.

It seems you are saying that sin or the power of sin still could separate such a one from the love of Christ. That if and when such a one commits a sin like murder for instance, or any other sin for that matter, that such sin is powerful enough to somehow separate him from the love of Christ. That then he is no longer under grace, and needs to be again be reconciled anew, by repenting again. And he goes about this each and every time he sins and then repents.

If you are persuaded that it is like so, I am not. I have faith in Christ, that He loves me and I am in His love, even when I fall at times, and that no power, even that of sin, could separate me from His love. For I am persuaded, as Paul was, that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus my Lord.

That is not at all to say that we can sin. To the contrary, we must not at all sin.

As far as Romans goes, and what Paul spoke of about the struggle of the flesh, he was not speaking of a "Christian struggle," as many suppose, but he was speaking of what it is like for those trying to live under the law. They could not do it no matter how hard they tried. He was reflecting back on his life before turning to Jesus.

Since you seem to want to discuss that, I will comment on that.

Paul was talking about the corrupted flesh of man, which he called, the body of death, that there is nothing good that dwells in it, but evil does, that is, sin. And that there is nothing that the man can do about it to overcome the power of sin that makes him sin which brought him death and continuously does so.

He was out to make the point about the fallen man, saying in Rom.7:24 “O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”, to make the concluding point, saying in v.25, “I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”. He was going towards preaching and pointing to Jesus Christ all along - the gospel. (I will stop here.)

Tong
R3958

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The Bible does not promise anywhere that if a believer commits those sins that God is not counting those sins against us


2 Cor.5:19...... “ God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself , NOT COUNTING THEIR SINS AGAINST THEM”

Well, that was easy.....what else ya got ?

 

[BloodBought 1953]

When Jesus said we have eternal life because we believe in Him, he also made it clear that those who believe on Him obey Him. That is what you are not understanding.


If all Believers are Obedient All Of the time why does Paul write so much about “ God's Chastisement?” Perhaps God Chastises the Obedient because you claim a true Believer “IS” Obedient......
Why does Paul refer to Believers in His churches that have “ fallen into sin”, and why does he warn others to be gentle with those who have given in to the Sins that “ so EASILY beset us because “ they” might be the next one to back- slide ?

Believers have the Holy Spirit within them.....I strongly believe that if a person allows that Spirit to hang around long enough, there is bound to be a change in behavior for the good....sometimes it takes time .....maybe even a Long time....Having that Spirit is the important thing—- the Spirit That “ drives” the change in a person for the better —- NOT that “ change” in and if itself......Much of this change occurs on the inside of a person and is not visible to the Self Righteous Fruit Inspectors that we see in these Forums sometimes......

 

[BloodBought 1953]

The Christian, at the time of his conversion, had come to repentance unto God and towards faith in Christ Jesus, as I understand. That he then, had also repented of his sins and even had made a promise, to sin no more.



A “ promise to sin no more ? “ Read Galatians. You are promoting an addition to the Gospel Of Grace Found In 1Cor15:1-4....It is a False , Perverted Gospel ....Those that Teach it are “ Accursed”. Do you know what that means? It means “ God - Damned”........

“Repenting of Sins” is a positive thing but it is NOT the Gospel ....The Gospel That Saves is what God did for man ( died for His Sins) —- NOT what man does for God ( make a vow to stop sinning) ....You need to “ Repent” from teaching a False Gospel.....The Gospel is not a call to “do better” ....it is a Promise to be Believed .....Nothing more and that is enough...

 

[Tong2020]

The Christian, at the time of his conversion, had come to repentance unto God and towards faith in Christ Jesus, as I understand. That he then, had also repented of his sins and even had made a promise, to sin no more.



A “ promise to sin no more ? “ Read Galatians. You are promoting an addition to the Gospel Of Grace Found In 1Cor15:1-4....It is a False , Perverted Gospel ....Those that Teach it are “ Accursed”. Do you know what that means? It means “ God - Damned”........

“Repenting of Sins” is a positive thing but it is NOT the Gospel ....The Gospel That Saves is what God did for man ( died for His Sins) —- NOT what man does for God ( make a vow to stop sinning) ....You need to “ Repent” from teaching a False Gospel.....The Gospel is not a call to “do better” ....it is a Promise to be Believed .....Nothing more and that is enough...

No, I am not promoting anything you said there I am. Read again what you quoted I said on which you commented on in your post. I believe you just did not understand what I was saying there.

Anyway, repenting with regards to sins, what ever they are, necessary comes with the intent to trying not to do the repented sins again. In that sense, it is sort of a promise on the part of the repentant.

And that is not at all said in any way shape or form, with regards the gospel. I don’t know why you commented as such to that part of my post.

Tong
R3960

 

[amigo de christo]

When Jesus said we have eternal life because we believe in Him, he also made it clear that those who believe on Him obey Him. That is what you are not understanding. True faith brings about change in lifestyle. A person who is a true believer becomes Jesus' disciple and no longer continues in a sinful lifestyle. Those who claim to believe in Jesus and still continue in sin do not believe in the way the Bible means believe. You are basically saying that when someone shows you scriptures that say you will not get to heaven if you live in sin, you ignore it because you choose to believe they cannot possibly apply to you. They must only apply to others. You are taking quite a gamble.

The Bible does not promise anywhere that if a believer commits those sins that God is not counting those sins against us. The Bible does not say that if we commit those sins, they are "forgiven, under the blood, covered by grace and remembered no more." If it does say all of that, how about posting all the scriptures that teach that. They do not exist. They only exist in the imagination of people that promote unconditional security, a doctrine never taught in the Bible. Again, here is your response to what I asked you about those scriptures, You say, "they must be referring to unbelievers." It never once says they only apply to unbelievers. Of course, we could say that many calling themselves believers are really unbelievers, and their sinful lifestyle proves it.

BE ye not therefore partakers of their sins . Yes indeed paul was warning the church .

 

[amigo de christo]

The Bible does not promise anywhere that if a believer commits those sins that God is not counting those sins against us


2 Cor.5:19...... “ God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself , NOT COUNTING THEIR SINS AGAINST THEM”

Well, that was easy.....what else ya got ?

Talk about taking it out of text BB. How come everyone in the new testament , including revelation the saying goes
REPENT. God did not hold all my sins against me , WHEN WE COME TO HIM we are forgiven of all said sins .
But the phrase now becomes , NOW GO AND SIN NO MORE . IF we do sin , confess and forsake . JUST like john said .
SIN is what will harden a heart . IT will lead us to another jesus . MANY have been led to another jesus .
And dont expect me to capitalize that jesus , cause it AINT THE BIBLCAL ONE and it AINT THE One the apostels taught either .
Many be and are in grave danger , following a jesus that has not freed them and a jesus that cannot save . THEY follow
The dark one and yet know it not .

 

[Instant]

The Christian, at the time of his conversion, had come to repentance unto God and towards faith in Christ Jesus, as I understand. That he then, had also repented of his sins and even had made a promise, to sin no more. When the Christian have been baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, he is cleansed of all his sins. He is under grace , having been reconciled to God, on account of Jesus Christ, and not on anything else. That said, needless to say, that while he is in the love of Christ, he remains to be under such grace.

It seems you are saying that sin or the power of sin still could separate such a one from the love of Christ. That if and when such a one commits a sin like murder for instance, or any other sin for that matter, that such sin is powerful enough to somehow separate him from the love of Christ. That then he is no longer under grace, and needs to be again be reconciled anew, by repenting again. And he goes about this each and every time he sins and then repents.

If you are persuaded that it is like so, I am not. I have faith in Christ, that He loves me and I am in His love, even when I fall at times, and that no power, even that of sin, could separate me from His love. For I am persuaded, as Paul was, that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus my Lord.

That is not at all to say that we can sin. To the contrary, we must not at all sin.


Since you seem to want to discuss that, I will comment on that.

Paul was talking about the corrupted flesh of man, which he called, the body of death, that there is nothing good that dwells in it, but evil does, that is, sin. And that there is nothing that the man can do about it to overcome the power of sin that makes him sin which brought him death and continuously does so.

He was out to make the point about the fallen man, saying in Rom.7:24 “O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”, to make the concluding point, saying in v.25, “I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”. He was going towards preaching and pointing to Jesus Christ all along - the gospel. (I will stop here.)

Tong
R3958

I know for a fact that the Bible does not tell anyone that all future sins are automatically under the blood. I know for a fact that the Bible says certain sins will keep us from having any inheritance in the Kingdom of God, and never says "unless you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior at some time in your life." You can believe that, but that is all it is, a belief, and it is not Biblical.

I already told you what I believe Paul meant in Romans, and I stand by that interpretation. I realize that others will have their own different opinion of what he meant.

 

[Instant]

The Bible does not promise anywhere that if a believer commits those sins that God is not counting those sins against us


2 Cor.5:19...... “ God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself , NOT COUNTING THEIR SINS AGAINST THEM”

Well, that was easy.....what else ya got ?

He was speaking of their past sins. Here is the passage in context in in a real Bible. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20

"And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their tresspasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."

When we accepted Christ as our Lord and Savior, in order to be reconciled unto God the Father, He could not impute our past sins against us. That is all it is saying. Now I am going to do to you what you did to me yesterday. I know that you are interpreting it wrong because it does not agree with this passage. 1 John 3:4-10 "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destory the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

After a person is saved, their past sins are not imputed to them, but that person does not continue in sin. If they do, the Bible says they have not seen Jesus or known Jesus, but they are of the devil. I noticed in another place you said that to be saved, believe and do what you want. That is what the devil has done. He believes and does what he wants. As a matter of fact, doing what thou wilt is a key verse in the Satanic Bible.

 

[Instant]

When Jesus said we have eternal life because we believe in Him, he also made it clear that those who believe on Him obey Him. That is what you are not understanding.


If all Believers are Obedient All Of the time why does Paul write so much about “ God's Chastisement?” Perhaps God Chastises the Obedient because you claim a true Believer “IS” Obedient......
Why does Paul refer to Believers in His churches that have “ fallen into sin”, and why does he warn others to be gentle with those who have given in to the Sins that “ so EASILY beset us because “ they” might be the next one to back- slide ?

Believers have the Holy Spirit within them.....I strongly believe that if a person allows that Spirit to hang around long enough, there is bound to be a change in behavior for the good....sometimes it takes time .....maybe even a Long time....Having that Spirit is the important thing—- the Spirit That “ drives” the change in a person for the better —- NOT that “ change” in and if itself......Much of this change occurs on the inside of a person and is not visible to the Self Righteous Fruit Inspectors that we see in these Forums sometimes......

On the same token, if God does not see our sins, and does not care how we live after we get saved, so long as we believe, why chastise us if we sin? He would not be able to see the sin through the blood. Also, why did Paul feel the need to put sinners out of the church in Corinth. They were believers, but they did as they wanted to do. God chastises sinful Christians so they will repent and not wind up in hell.

 

[Instant]

The Christian, at the time of his conversion, had come to repentance unto God and towards faith in Christ Jesus, as I understand. That he then, had also repented of his sins and even had made a promise, to sin no more.



A “ promise to sin no more ? “ Read Galatians. You are promoting an addition to the Gospel Of Grace Found In 1Cor15:1-4....It is a False , Perverted Gospel ....Those that Teach it are “ Accursed”. Do you know what that means? It means “ God - Damned”........

“Repenting of Sins” is a positive thing but it is NOT the Gospel ....The Gospel That Saves is what God did for man ( died for His Sins) —- NOT what man does for God ( make a vow to stop sinning) ....You need to “ Repent” from teaching a False Gospel.....The Gospel is not a call to “do better” ....it is a Promise to be Believed .....Nothing more and that is enough...

Speaking of that, here is a warning to you. The Bible never says, "Faith plus nothing." It says, "Faith without works is dead." The Bible never says to believe and live as you want. That is another gospel, so you are accursed, damned. Do you understand what that means? Repenting of sins is part of the gospel. Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

That is in the gospel, but your doctrine of faith plus nothing is not. Your claim that a person could commit 1000 acts of rape and murder a day, and if they believe in Jesus, they will go to heaven, even if they do not repent, is not Biblical or part of the gospel. That means you are preaching another gospel and accursed, damned. You will get nowhere with me using that threat, because you have not only added to the gospel and changed the gospel, but you have preached Satan's version of the gospel, to do what thou wilt.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The Christian, at the time of his conversion, had come to repentance unto God and towards faith in Christ Jesus, as I understand. That he then, had also repented of his sins and even had made a promise, to sin no more. When the Christian have been baptized with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, he is cleansed of all his sins. He is under grace , having been reconciled to God, on account of Jesus Christ, and not on anything else. That said, needless to say, that while he is in the love of Christ, he remains to be under such grace.

It seems you are saying that sin or the power of sin still could separate such a one from the love of Christ. That if and when such a one commits a sin like murder for instance, or any other sin for that matter, that such sin is powerful enough to somehow separate him from the love of Christ. That then he is no longer under grace, and needs to be again be reconciled anew, by repenting again. And he goes about this each and every time he sins and then repents.

If you are persuaded that it is like so, I am not. I have faith in Christ, that He loves me and I am in His love, even when I fall at times, and that no power, even that of sin, could separate me from His love. For I am persuaded, as Paul was, that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus my Lord.

That is not at all to say that we can sin. To the contrary, we must not at all sin.


Since you seem to want to discuss that, I will comment on that.

Paul was talking about the corrupted flesh of man, which he called, the body of death, that there is nothing good that dwells in it, but evil does, that is, sin. And that there is nothing that the man can do about it to overcome the power of sin that makes him sin which brought him death and continuously does so.

He was out to make the point about the fallen man, saying in Rom.7:24 “O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?”, to make the concluding point, saying in v.25, “I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!”. He was going towards preaching and pointing to Jesus Christ all along - the gospel. (I will stop here.)

I know for a fact that the Bible does not tell anyone that all future sins are automatically under the blood. I know for a fact that the Bible says certain sins will keep us from having any inheritance in the Kingdom of God, and never says "unless you accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior at some time in your life." You can believe that, but that is all it is, a belief, and it is not Biblical.

What scriptures says is that Jesus’ death, among others, was as a sacrifice for sin, for atonement, and for the forgiveness of sin. But unlike that of the sacrifice/s made under the Mosaic Law and the Levitical priesthood, His sacrifice was a once and for all sacrifice for sins. The book of Hebrews is a good read regarding this, which tells us that Jesus, by one offering, He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. What do you understand of that truth (in bold fonts)? That truth tells a lot about what He had accomplished by His sacrifice, and tells a lot about what it accomplished on those who are being sanctified.

And does that not tell you that there is no more sacrifice for sin, whether for past, or for present, or for future sins? For the sins we commit today and if any future sins, will there be forgiveness if not without a sacrifice for sin? I guess you will agree that there will not be any forgiveness of sin without so. In that sense, Jesus’ sacrifice for sin took care of that.

With regards sin and the power of sin, relative to those under the grace and love of Jesus Christ, is it not biblical truth, that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord? If not, is the teaching that there is a thing or a power that can separate those who are under the grace and love of Christ, from the love of Christ, is what to you is biblical? Sorry, but I believe the former.

I already told you what I believe Paul meant in Romans, and I stand by that interpretation. I realize that others will have their own different opinion of what he meant.

Yes, and that is understandable.

We only could share our understanding. Conviction and persuasion belongs to the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R3965

 

[Tong2020]

On the same token, if God does not see our sins, and does not care how we live after we get saved, so long as we believe, why chastise us if we sin? He would not be able to see the sin through the blood. Also, why did Paul feel the need to put sinners out of the church in Corinth. They were believers, but they did as they wanted to do. God chastises sinful Christians so they will repent and not wind up in hell.

Chastisement it is for the legitimate children of God, and not condemnation unto to hell. But for the illegitimate children, that would be different.

Tong
R3967

 

[Tong2020]

Speaking of that, here is a warning to you. The Bible never says, "Faith plus nothing." It says, "Faith without works is dead." The Bible never says to believe and live as you want. That is another gospel, so you are accursed, damned. Do you understand what that means? Repenting of sins is part of the gospel. Matthew 4:17 "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

That is in the gospel, but your doctrine of faith plus nothing is not. Your claim that a person could commit 1000 acts of rape and murder a day, and if they believe in Jesus, they will go to heaven, even if they do not repent, is not Biblical or part of the gospel. That means you are preaching another gospel and accursed, damned. You will get nowhere with me using that threat, because you have not only added to the gospel and changed the gospel, but you have preached Satan's version of the gospel, to do what thou wilt.

May I ask, if a person IS a murderer of a thousand men and IS a rapist of a thousand women, do you think he can be saved by God?

Tong
R3968

 

[Instant]

What scriptures says is that Jesus’ death, among others, was as a sacrifice for sin, for atonement, and for the forgiveness of sin. But unlike that of the sacrifice/s made under the Mosaic Law and the Levitical priesthood, His sacrifice was a once and for all sacrifice for sins. The book of Hebrews is a good read regarding this, which tells us that Jesus, by one offering, He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. What do you understand of that truth (in bold fonts)? That truth tells a lot about what He had accomplished by His sacrifice, and tells a lot about what it accomplished on those who are being sanctified.

And does that not tell you that there is no more sacrifice for sin, whether for past, or for present, or for future sins? For the sins we commit today and if any future sins, will there be forgiveness if not without a sacrifice for sin? I guess you will agree that there will not be any forgiveness of sin without so. In that sense, Jesus’ sacrifice for sin took care of that.

With regards sin and the power of sin, relative to those under the grace and love of Jesus Christ, is it not biblical truth, that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord? If not, is the teaching that there is a thing or a power that can separate those who are under the grace and love of Christ, from the love of Christ, is what to you is biblical? Sorry, but I believe the former.


Yes, and that is understandable.

We only could share our understanding. Conviction and persuasion belongs to the Holy Spirit.

Tong
R3965

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to pay for all the sins of the entire world, but it does not do everyone good. That is because God does not choose to wash away everyone's sins. There are conditions. When a person gets saved, all past sins are washed away. In addition, sins done in error are washed away. What is not washed away are sins done on purpose after getting saved.

"For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions." Hebrews 10:26-32

This warning was being given to people that were saved. The original blood covering does not apply to sins done willfully. In the Old Testament, they were called presumptuous sins, and the Law of Moses was not intended to cover those sins either. If a person does commit willful sins after getting saved, they must confess them to God and repent if they want to be restored.

As for my understanding of Romans, that came from the Lord. I had been seeking the truth about that book for a very long time, and had read it many times over. Then one day, I was listening to it on cd and the truth was instantly revealed to me. I believe that the interpretation I gave is the correct one, and that the teaching that this is some kind of Christian struggle is wrong.