Christ vs the anti-Christ: Who is winning?

[brakelite]

Yes whos works

His work. God's work.
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
What work is this that God has promised to accomplish in us? A work that continues in us right to the day we die, or Jesus comes?
Give me one good reason why I ought not include you in having a part in the "mystery of lawlessness" because of the war you are waging against all those who would exalt the law and make it honourable? Paul speaks of godliness without power...what is godliness with power? What is the difference between my own righteousness which is of the law, and righteousness which is of God by faith? What manner of life shall one reveal to the world that has Christ formed within...a life that is in harmony with the law, or a life that rejects the law as burdensome and impossible to obey? What manner of righteousness is it that belongs to Christ and is expressed by Jesus Himself as being of equal value to His kingdom (See Matthew 6:33), and that we ought to seek for, even hunger and thirst for?

Okay, sorry, lots of questions, take your time.

 

[mjrhealth]

What is the difference between my own righteousness which is of the law

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,

why because Christ righteousness is not sin...

Rom_3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Rom_3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom_3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Give me one good reason why I ought not include you in having a part in the "mystery of lawlessness" because of the war you are waging against all those who would exalt the law and make it honourable?

Exo_20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

besides I could care less, I know who I am in Christ

or a life that rejects the law as burdensome and impossible to obey

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

see not deeds so no we dont "keep" them, they where never ours in the first place.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Faith, that one thing that is sadly missing amongst christians that cause them to pursue other gods.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Yes the Reformation was a great thing. The RCC was/is very corrupt & adding their heretical false teachings, man- made writings & claiming the priests & Pope can forgive sins, RC dogma that has nothing to do with Jesus teachings & God's Word. It would have corrupted all of Christianity if it was allowed.

Exactly.

 

[tzcho2]

Hi Preacher,

You thank God for the Church becoming divided and torn apart (the effect's of the Reformation)? I don't think that was God's doing so you should be ASKING him to restore His Church instead of thanking Him for something he didn't do.

You get to decide what is "in error doctrinally"? Since you KNOW the CC is in error please do tell me who else is in error?

You are conflating authority, which was given to the Apostles by Christ, with totalitarianism. Are you using totalitarianism when you and your ilk tell me that The Church was in error doctrinally? Or are you just trying to save my soul? Which one of you should I listen to? The Lutherans? Baptist? Methodist? Maybe the SDA's don't have any error in their doctrine? Who decides this???

I never said there was a biblical case for my OP. I am simply stating a facts. More people in this world are NOT Christian which means they do not follow the teaching of Christ. Do all facts have to be backed up with scripture?

Please provide a biblical case for NO Church authority. I can show you in Scripture where The Church has authority to decide what you and I will believe/practice.

Marymog (Mary, mother of God)

Sorry but it seems there is a misunderstanding of what the Bible means by "church "it is not meant the Roman Catholic Church.
The "church"referred to in scripture does not refer to ANY man-made institution such as the RCC etc, but to the Godly assembly of born again Christ submitted (little Christs) Christians of whom God knows their identity that is across all denominations--we humans do not. Some who call themselves Christians are not necessarily, but in name only and the Bible states that the Lord Jesus will sift them at the judgment.
What to follow or listen to? the churches & Pastor's that preach the full counsel of GOD, but none that teach from made-created doctrines, nor from denominations that add or subtract from the Bible.
Actually, as far as Bible scripture goes it calls Mary wife of Joseph, the mother of Jesus, not the mother of God, Mary was not divine, she was a sinner in need of the Savior & she cannot grant prayers. The Apocrypha is not included in the canon for obvious reasons & not considered to be God inspired scripture that 2Tim 16 : "16AllScripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work.…."

 

[charity]

I have struggled with this question and am not sure how to say that the teachings of Christ are winning. Even though some of the teachings are not anti-Christian teachings they don't conform to Christ teachings. There are over 7 billion people in this world, however, Christians only make up a little over 2 billion people. More people believe in a teaching that is not of Christ.

Is Satan winning?

'Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving, and being deceived.
But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of,
knowing of whom thou hast learned them; ... '
(2 Timothy 3:12-14)

Hello @Marymog,

God has not left us unaware of the circumstances we can expect to exist at this present time, has He? For He has told us that things will wax worse and worse. In, Isaiah 51, God speaking to Jerusalem, warns of the times ahead, and encourages those remaining: for His purposes will be accomplished in the earth, as He is unchanging and what He has said, He will do.

'And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning
hast laid the foundation of the earth;
and the heavens are the works of Thine hands:
They shall perish;
but thou remainest;
and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up,
and they shall be changed:
but thou art the same,
and thy years shall not fail.'
(Hebrew 1:10-12)

* We need to keep our minds stayed on Christ, and actively believe, in the face of unbelief and deteriorating world conditions, for God is faithful, and will accomplish all that He has promised in Christ Jesus.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

'Then saith He to Thomas,
.. "Reach hither thy finger,
.... and behold My hands;
...... and reach hither thy hand,
........ and thrust it into My side:
.......... and be not faithless, but believing."
And Thomas answered and said unto Him,
.. "My Lord and my God."
Jesus saith unto Him,
.. "Thomas, because thou hast seen Me,
.... thou hast believed:
...... blessed are they that have not seen,
........ and yet have believed."
(John 20:27-29)

Praise God!

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I want to address an oft given misnomer that is presented from differing groups claiming to be Christian, and generally as if they are the only true church.

It is this: That the proof that they are of the truth is due to the fact that they have no division and have doctrinal unity. Typical groups are Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholicism and some LDS. One thing (as an interesting side note) these generally do not refer to themselves as Christian at first mention, it is typically "I am a Jehovah's Witness" or "I am Catholic" or "I am Mormon."

But, the proof they offer ("We are the true because we have pure agreeable doctrine") simply does not stand up to a Biblical test.

First, there is no such thing as an early NT church that didn't have schism from within and without to deal with. And lots of it! Often it is cited by some something like "We are like the early NT church" typically with smugness and accomplishment, but such a statement is ingrained with Biblical ignorance. One could then respond "So, you're filled with division, heresies, false teachers, false teachings, false brothers and sisters, spiritual immaturity, and sexual immorality?" I say this sort of tongue in cheek, but not totally.

As a biblical case to prove my point one need only to read the NT epistles to the early NT churches. The proof I offer will be readily seen. That said, the alleged proof offered by these groups falls far short of the Biblical truth.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I want to address an oft given misnomer that is presented from differing groups claiming to be Christian, and generally as if they are the only true church.

It is this: That the proof that they are of the truth is due to the fact that they have no division and have doctrinal unity. Typical groups are Jehovah's Witnesses, Roman Catholicism and some LDS. One thing (as an interesting side note) these generally do not refer to themselves as Christian at first mention, it is typically "I am a Jehovah's Witness" or "I am Catholic" or "I am Mormon."

But, the proof they offer ("We are the true because we have pure agreeable doctrine") simply does not stand up to a Biblical test.

First, there is no such thing as an early NT church that didn't have schism from within and without to deal with. And lots of it! Often it is cited by some something like "We are like the early NT church" typically with smugness and accomplishment, but such a statement is ingrained with Biblical ignorance. One could then respond "So, you're filled with division, heresies, false teachers, false teachings, false brothers and sisters, spiritual immaturity, and sexual immorality?" I say this sort of tongue in cheek, but not totally.

As a biblical case to prove my point one need only to read the NT epistles to the early NT churches. The proof I offer will be readily seen. That said, the alleged proof offered by these groups falls far short of the Biblical truth.

Catholics are Christians, Baptists are Christians, LDS are Christians, Orthodox are Christians, etc. These are simply specifications under the larger Christian umbrella, like you can specify dalmatian or labrador or husky, or just be generic with "dog".

Yes, different Christian groups disagree on a long list of things, but the core is having Christ as our Savior. Let us acknowledge this foundation and get along, even as we disagree on other things.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Catholics are Christians, Baptists are Christians, LDS are Christians, Orthodox are Christians, etc. These are simply specifications under the larger Christian umbrella, like you can specify dalmatian or labrador or husky, or just be generic with "dog".

Yes, different Christian groups disagree on a long list of things, but the core is having Christ as our Savior. Let us acknowledge this foundation and get along, even as we disagree on other things.

Hello again!

No, I am going to disagree with you, it is not as simple as you make it, and it isn't biblically accurate.

Catholicism, Mormonism? These are not Christian groups. The Gospel and the Christ preached within these two systems is contrary to Scripture. There is no salvation outside of the true Christ and his one true Gospel. In fact, if you want more evidence of what IO speak, even Catholic apologists admit in debates its gospel is not the same as the Gospel of groups that are not Catholic, otherwise known as orthodox.

The gospel of Mormonism is not the Gospel of Scripture. These are well-known facts.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hello again!

No, I am going to disagree with you, it is not as simple as you make it, and it isn't biblically accurate.

Catholicism, Mormonism? These are not Christian groups. The Gospel and the Christ preached within these two systems is contrary to Scripture. There is no salvation outside of the true Christ and his one true Gospel. In fact, if you want more evidence of what IO speak, even Catholic apologists admit in debates its gospel is not the same as the Gospel of groups that are not Catholic, otherwise known as orthodox.

The gospel of Mormonism is not the Gospel of Scripture. These are well-known facts.

Question for you: how is a person saved?
Is it by accepting Jesus Christ? Or is by man's ability to pass a theology test?

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Question for you: how is a person saved?
Is it by accepting Jesus Christ? Or is by man's ability to pass a theology test?

Salvation isn't through believing in a false Christ or false Gospel. So, "accept" away, but if it isn't the true Christ or the true Gospel, it is to be deceived and one is therefore not genuinely converted. Label yourself "Christian" all you want, it doesn't do away with the truth of the matter.

So, question for you: There is salvation via a false Christ and false Gospel?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Salvation isn't through believing in a false Christ or false Gospel. So, "accept" away, but if it isn't the true Christ or the true Gospel, it is to be deceived and one is therefore not genuinely converted. Label yourself "Christian" all you want, it doesn't do away with the truth of the matter.

So, question for you: There is salvation via a false Christ and false Gospel?

Salvation isn't about man's ability to pass a theology test, but their love of Christ.

 

[charity]

Question for you: how is a person saved?
Is it by accepting Jesus Christ? Or is by man's ability to pass a theology test?

Hi there, @Jane_Doe22 ,

I understand what you are saying. I wish we would concentrate on the person and work of Christ, by which we were saved, individually: and forget the corporate doctrinal stances which divide us. For there are no divisions in Christ Jesus, we are all ONE in Him.

I don't attend a place of worship, and am not a member therefore of any christian community: yet, we are brothers and sisters, 'in Christ Jesus' our risen Lord. I just cannot adopt the doctrinal stances of any.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Salvation isn't about man's ability to pass a theology test, but their love of Christ.

Actually, your theology will be tested, and that's a fact.

Oh, so it's sentimentalism, not examined truth? Gotcha. It's in saying "I love Christ" and we just end it there, therefore it is purely subjective and not up to the test of truth and Scripture. Not even close.

OK, so I ask. Which Christ?

Have the common courtesy to answer my question, I answered yours: Can a person be saved via a false Christ and false Gospel?

 

[Dave L]

Hi there, @Jane Doe22,

I understand what you are saying. I wish we would concentrate on the person and work of Christ, by which we were saved, individually: and forget the corporate doctrinal stances which divide us. For there are no divisions in Christ Jesus, we are all ONE in Him.

I don't attend a place of worship, and am not a member therefore of any christian community: yet, we are brothers and sisters, 'in Christ Jesus' our risen Lord. I just cannot adopt the doctrinal stances of any.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Doctrines are conclusions about something. The idea is to find the right conclusions. You have a doctrine that says "we are brothers and sisters in the Lord". The more you study, the more conclusions you end up with.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Actually, your theology will be tested, and that's a fact.

Oh, so it's sentimentalism, not examined truth? Gotcha. It's in saying "I love Christ." and we then just end it there, therefore it is purely subjective and not up to the test of truth and Scripture. Not even close.

OK, so I ask. Which Christ?

Have the common courtesy to answer my question, I answered yours: Can a person be saved via a false Christ and false Gospel?

When Christ asked for the little children to come to Him, did he stay "wait, stop. First please recite the Athanasian Creed and give me a detailed dissection of it. If you get a C or above, then it's ok for you to come to me. Everyone else, you got a false Christ, go away now"?

I don't think that's what He said.

Preacher, I'm not saying that theology and a deeper understanding of doctrines are not important, because they are very important. But man's ability to pass a theology test is not what saves us. Christ alone is what saves us. Let us acknowledge that foundational fact.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

When Christ asked...

Please answer my question. Can a person be saved via a false Christ and false Gospel?

 

[charity]

Doctrines are conclusions about something. The idea is to find the right conclusions. You have a doctrine that says "we are brothers and sisters in the Lord". The more you study, the more conclusions you end up with.

Hello there, @Dave L.

That is not a 'doctrine' it is a fact.

Greater knowledge should not alter the basic knowledge that we are brothers and sisters in Christ, and prevent us from loving one another.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Episkopos]

I have struggled with this question and am not sure how to say that the teachings of Christ are winning. Even though some of the teachings are not anti-Christian teachings they don't conform to Christ teachings. There are over 7 billion people in this world, however, Christians only make up a little over 2 billion people. More people believe in a teaching that is not of Christ.

Is Satan winning?

Of course. Satan always wins over the crowds....the masses. Jesus calls us outside the crowd as individuals who come together....never as the crowd. Political power is by the masses....by the devil himself. As long as Christians look to politics they are looking to the devil for answers. So then anti-Christ is a mixture of Christ with human means...like political power. The anti-Christ will be...and already is...a political person.

 

[Episkopos]

Please answer my question. Can a person be saved via a false Christ and false Gospel?

Only in the short term. The judgment of God will determine what shortcuts so many have taken that seem to "save" us and give us security.