Are these in the same god nature
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalm 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan
- Thread starter Matthias
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Are these in the same god nature
Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Psalm 82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
pandaflower
Well-Known Member
Aren't the angels who joined Lucifer in his rebellion considered evil? Because they fell from God's grace after they were cast from heaven?
I am mindful that the word angels can ALSO be used of human messengers, it was used for John the baptist (the messenger sent before the Lord) and Jesus Christ (the messenger of the covenant) in Mal 3:1
You have added the word sin to Luke 20:36 there and have ended up broad brushing all angels the same when you admit that angels can be used of human messengers. And Jesus as a messenger (the word can eqaually be used as angel, as there is also a nature of angels, see my former post) took not onto himself the nature of one.
So what you are saying is mortal flesh can sin and die (we agree here). We know the Word was made flesh, but we also know Jesus took not on himself the very nature of angels (which you might call a divine nature in every instance in respects to angels, while admitting the word angel can be applicable to men ( of mortal origin/ or flesh) who can sin and die.
It speaks of the devil and his angels, and of evil angels.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Are you referring to Michael the Arch Angel? You need to be more specific!
Daniel Chapter 10 is showing you how the Divine Angels work in the Kingdoms of Men. Daniel had witnessed powerful rulers rise and fall such as Nebuchadnezzar, Evil-Merodach, Neriglissar, Labashi-Marduk, Nabonidus, and his co-regent son, the indulgent Belshazzar.
Then came that unforgettable night when Babylon, along with all its corruption, was brought to an end as Daniel interpreted the writing on the wall. The Medes and Persians took over, and Daniel continued to serve under Darius the Mede (Daniel 9:1) and into the first year of the sole reign of Cyrus the Persian.
Where are there sinning fallen Angels in Daniel 10?
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, this thread is focused on examining the evidence for the idea of a fallen, rebellious angel—not the divine angels, who are ministering spirits sent to serve the saints destined to inherit the Kingdom of God on earth.
Aside from Revelation 12—which is highly symbolic and often misapplied—where else in the Bible are we given a clear account of heavenly rebel angels? Is there a backstory that provides all the details Christians commonly attribute to this creature today?
Is Revelation 12 all you have? Because if it is then this belief is in a lot of trouble.
Definition of divine
Having the nature of or being a deity.
Definition of diety
A god or goddess.
Why not rather call the angels "holy angels" as the scriptures do and leave off of the whole divine angels wording since Satan is also called the god of this world and it makes more sense to refer to them as holy angels when you are speaking of them.
You made it about what you aparently do not want it to be about when you stated
Yes, you need to be mindful the word for angels can also be used of human messengers.
Mortal flesh can sin and die - Romans 6:23
Divine Nature cannot - Luke 20:36
You use the words "divine nature" to refer to angels (in contrast to mortal men) all the while acknowledging that the angels can also be used of human messengers, but then contrast betwen one (mortal men) that can sin and die and the other (the angels) that you state cannot. That does not work, and Luke 20:36 does not support that angels cannot sin, but rather that the other would not die (and being equal to) rather than made lower than the angels (as Jesus was made) suffering death. And therefore they die no more.
I thought Matthias started the thread, but now (out of all the threads you always go off topic on) you want to get strict and want to focus on a specific area when all I have done is look at the contrast you laid out.
I don't know why you snipped my post down to just the last verse. You lumped what you said, cannot sin into the category of angels (using Luke 20:36) when there is no mention of sin in that verse. Equal to the angels refers to dying no more there. Yet you contrast between what is mortal (or men, who CAN sin and die) from angels who die not (adding "they cannot sin" either) and call Psalm 78:49 which shows evil angels a bad translation, and arent interested in 2 Peter 2:4 which speaks of " For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell".
@talons had asked on the other thread
So you are saying there are no fallen angels in our earthly realm ?
Scripture shows
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
You responded to @talons question about fallen angels, saying
Divine nature cannot sin - God's nature!
Even though Peter speaks of angels sinning here
2Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
If the angels had sinned, then there are such things as evil angels, but if I post
Psalm 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
You respond,
"Poor translation - should read messengers. No such thing as an evil angel"
You said on another thread,
"In Scripture, “devils” always refer to human beings the term simply means “false accuser” and is never used in a positive sense."
In this verse here it says,
Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
According to your understanding, if devils always refer to human beings, do you believe that many human beings entered inside that man?
And then here the devils entered into the swine
Luke 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine
So you said, devils always refer to human beings, and is never used in a positive sense but I should be mindful the word for angels can also be used of human messengers.
And had you said, men can both sin and die but only angels cannot die, and just left it there I can agree with that, since even you allow for angels/messengers to also be speaking of men (in a certain capacity). And if you include men (who can sin) into the area of angels (who cannot die). Then men can sin and not surely die, and it just messes with the contrasting you seek to give it.
To the apostle Peter's words here
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour
You had replied (on another thread) this way,
This makes me laugh that Christians think there is a lion going around devouring people (knee slapper!)
Both Paul and Peter refer to the same as a lion
2Ti 4:17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion.
Devouring people is shown in the context of speaking God's words also
Jerm 5:14 Wherefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, Because ye speak this word, behold, I will make my words in thy mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them.
So when Peter says he walketh about, seeking whom he may devour he is likely playing off the same shown here
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
I asked you to provide evidence from a book other than the highly symbolic Revelation, as it seems from your post that you're unable to properly discern its symbolic language.
@talons do you think it's unreasonable to ask for evidence earlier than the last book of the Bible?
Now in time we will explore the meaning of Rev 12 but for now I conclude there is no account in the Bible that teaches "fallen divine angels"
Not one!
How convenient of you to say.
Angels sinning
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment
Which left their first estate
Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Similarly concerning these on his left hand Jesus says,
Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
These are obviously not God's holy angels but the devil and his angels
The ones you would like to skip are these
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Because the dragon's and his angels, who is that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan are highly symbolic
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
You said sending evil angels among them is a bad translation
Psalm 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
So lets ditch the sending of evil angels and see if the LORD sends evil spirits
1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.
Yep, and the LORD sends a lying spirit
1 Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Which is one lying spirit (singular) in the mouths of many prophets (plural)
The king of the bottomless pit is also referred to as an angel, I understand him to be Satan, you may not, but if you do you would likely just call him just a human messenger of the bottomless pit.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
To save time simply quote your verse and provide your understanding of what is being taught.
Can you provide context to these verses?
I'd like to see your understanding first before revealing their truth.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
What is the context to those passages you posted? Go, read for yourself and explain where is the mind of the writer?
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you're missing the context of Scripture, that could explain your reaction. Learning to direct someone to study for themselves, rather than reacting emotionally, is a vital skill when handling the Word.
Peter draws upon examples from Israel's history to illustrate how seductive and destructive internal corrupting influences can be. Peter makes it clear that these internal threats are often far more difficult to resist than external trials or persecution. This chapter closely parallels the Epistle of Jude, as Peter foresaw the very conditions that Jude later witnessed unfolding.
"Angels that sinned"
There is evidence suggesting that the 250 leaders who rebelled against Moses, Korah, Dathan, and Abiram’s followers were “angels” (Hebrew: aggeloi), as they were assigned to minister to Israel (Num. 16:9).
Now if you read the broader context what other OT examples are used?
List them!
Peter draws upon examples from Israel's history to illustrate how seductive and destructive internal corrupting influences can be. Peter makes it clear that these internal threats are often far more difficult to resist than external trials or persecution. This chapter closely parallels the Epistle of Jude, as Peter foresaw the very conditions that Jude later witnessed unfolding.
"Angels that sinned"
There is evidence suggesting that the 250 leaders who rebelled against Moses, Korah, Dathan, and Abiram’s followers were “angels” (Hebrew: aggeloi), as they were assigned to minister to Israel (Num. 16:9).
- They held a “first estate” or principality, being leaders or princes (RSV) (Num 16:2), but abandoned this position when they sought the priesthood (Num. 16:10).
- As judgment for their rebellion, they were buried alive, delivered into “chains of darkness” (Num. 16:31–33).
- They were guilty of sin by arrogating to themselves the priestly office (Num. 16:10, 38).
- This event foreshadows the final judgment administered by Christ (2 Tim 4:1).
- Supporting this connection: those who opposed Moses were called “sons of Levi,” and in Malachi 2:7, Levitical priests are referred to as “messengers (aggeloi) of the LORD.”
Now if you read the broader context what other OT examples are used?
List them!
(Thomas J. Farrar, ”The Devil in the Wilderness: Evaluating Christadelphian exegesis of the temptation narratives”)
Fascinating history of the Christadelphian development of their distinctive doctrine.
Fascinating history of the Christadelphian development of their distinctive doctrine.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
I have a number of comprehensive debates on the sunject also. No developement - the community has never believed in this pagan belief.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
How do you define God's nature? I believe that the Father God is the only one with his own unique God nature; strictly defined. Angels have an angel nature as humans have a human nature. They cannot be mixed. God does not produce offspring or copies of himself, right?
As Peter would agree, human believers partake only of God's human nature, and by a similar process so do angels.
Hiddenthings
Well-Known Member
Peter & Christ both teach the Saints and Angels will share divine nature.
by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 2 Peter 1:4
Divine nature cannot sin or die!
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