Christadelphians, the Devil and Satan

[Matthias]

Greetings again Matthias,

The serpent of old was the serpent.

I’ve already presented evidence against the Christadelphian dogma. You can’t be moved. While that’s disappointing, it’s not surprising. There are others that we have to take into consideration. I’ve strengthened them in their faith and left you in yours.

This is a very amusing incident, but I am not sure why you raise this. God gave the donkey a certain level of intelligence and remarkably able to voice this intelligence, and what the donkey stated was very relevant and true to the circumstances.

God gave the serpent a certain level of reasoning ability, and the ability to voice his reasoning. But the serpent's deductions were not all valid, and did not speak ALL the truth or the appropriate truth. The thoughts were completely based upon his given ability from God and his deductions based on his observations of the Angels, the Elohim of Genesis 3 who had a knowledge of good and evil, and yet the Angels were no longer subject to death, and anyway there was a tree of life in the midst of the garden.

Genesis 3:5 (KJV): For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:5 (ESV): For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Kind regards
Trevor

So we have a talking snake and a talking donkey. Someone enabled the donkey to speak. Someone enabled the snake to speak. We can identify that someone as God. In the donkey incident we have the angel of Yahweh you’re involving in the snake incident.

The donkey isn’t the devil. God worked through the donkey. The snake isn’t the devil. The devil, who is Satan, worked through the snake.

P.S.

We can go back to our conversation about the garden incident but you’re not going to be persuaded by anyone holding my position and I’m not going to be persuaded by anyone holding your position.

That brings me next to broaching the subject of the occult with you.

 

[soberxp]

imho, demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephilim

Fallen angels are also spirits but remain as angels, however they are now locked into Judgment with satan.

This is what wrote in the Book of Enoch.

 

[Matthias]

This is what wrote in the Book of Enoch.

Unfortunately, the Christadelphians don’t consider the Jewish background to be evidence. They truly don’t believe that there is any evidence which offers a valid alternative to their dogma.

New Testament Jews - both those who believed Jesus is the Messiah and those who did not believe Jesus is the Messiah - inherited the Jewish belief concerning the real existence of the devil and demons; there is no dispute about the matter between them. In other words, both pro-Jesus and anti-Jesus camps believed the devil and demons are real.

 

[soberxp]

Unfortunately, the Christadelphians don’t consider the Jewish background to be evidence. They truly don’t believe that there is any evidence which offers an alternative to their dogma.

New Testament Jews - both those who believed Jesus is the Messiah and those who did not believe Jesus is the Messiah - inherited the Jewish belief concerning the real existence of the devil and demons; there is no dispute about the matter between them. In other words, both pro-Jesus and anti-Jesus camps believed the devil and demons are real.

So if God left them on purpose to educate them, do you believe that theory ?
Of course, Satan, the devil, demons all know how they end up. But why did God keep them until then? Is it just to show that all human mistakes come from them? Are they just used to be the wrong ones for human mistakes?

 

[Matthias]

So if God left them on purpose to educate them, do you believe that theory ?

I’m not sure I understand your question. Who is “them”?

Did God leave [Satan and the demons] on purpose to educate [Adam and Eve]?

If that’s what you’re asking, no, I don’t believe that theory.

Of course, Satan, the devil, demons all know how they end up. But why did God keep them until then? Is it just to show that all human mistakes come from them? Are they just used to be the wrong ones for human mistakes?

God could have destroyed them the instant they rebelled, but didn’t. He could have destroyed human beings the instant they rebelled, but didn’t. God has a purpose for keeping the rebellious around.

All human “mistakes” don’t come from the devil and the demons.

***

Keep in mind the proud Christadelphian boast on the forum that everyone who disagrees with his dogma constitutes “the satans.” He’s saying it but he’s not the source of the accusation. Don’t believe the accuser.

***

God doesn’t tempt anyone and cannot be tempted. Satan and the demons are doing that, and God allows it for a time.

 

[soberxp]

I’m not sure I understand your question. Who is “them”?

Did God leave [Satan and the demons] on purpose to educate [Adam and Eve]?

If that’s what you’re asking, no, I don’t believe that theory.



God could have destroyed them the instant they rebelled, but didn’t. He could have destroyed human beings the instant they rebelled, but didn’t. God has a purpose for keeping the rebellious around.

All human “mistakes” don’t come from the devil and the demons.

***

Keep in mind the proud Christadelphian boast on the forum that everyone who disagrees with his dogma constitutes “the satans.” He’s saying it but he’s not the source of the accusation. Don’t believe the accuser.

***

God doesn’t tempt anyone and cannot be tempted. Satan and the demons are doing that, and God allows it for a time.

Did God leave [Satan and the demons] on purpose to educate [Satan and the demons]?

Did God leave [Adam and Eve] on purpose to educate [Satan and the demons]?

Did God leave [Adam and Eve] on purpose to educate [Adam and Eve]?

 

[Matthias]

Did God leave [Satan and the demons] on purpose to educate [Satan and the demons]?

No.

Did God leave [Adam and Eve] on purpose to educate [Satan and the demons]?

No.

Did God leave [Adam and Eve] on purpose to educate [Adam and Eve]?

No.

Those are my answers. What are yours?

 

[soberxp]

3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do you think the "whosoever believeth in him"
include [Satan and the demons] and [Adam and Eve]

 

[soberxp]

No.



No.



No.

Those are my answers. What are yours?

B: The opposite of you.

 

[Matthias]

3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Do you think the "whosoever believeth in him"
include [Satan and the demons] …

No.

… and [Adam and Eve]

We’ll have to wait and see.

 

[Matthias]

B: The opposite of you.

You think Adam and Eve were left on purpose to educate Satan and the demons?

 

[soberxp]

You think Adam and Eve were left to educate the devil and the demons?

Book of Job
1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Every time I read this passage in Job, I feel strongly that God is trying to educate Satan. God is educating us through Job. He also educates Satan through Job. God will use Job to crush Satan's accusations before him.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Book of Job
1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Every time I read this passage in Job, I feel strongly that God is trying to educate Satan. God is educating us through Job. He also educates Satan through Job. God will use Job to crush Satan's accusations before him.

Unlocking Job

@Wick Stick I thought it might be worthwhile to spend some time exploring the book of Job and digging into a few interesting details about this adversary figure. It's widely acknowledged, even among many scholars, that the adversary in Job isn’t portrayed as the ultimate enemy of God, at least...

www.christianityboard.com

 

[Matthias]

Book of Job
1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

1:10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Every time I read this passage in Job, I feel strongly that God is trying to educate Satan. God is educating us through Job. He also educates Satan through Job. God will use Job to crush Satan's accusations before him.

That’s an interesting perspective: God is trying to educate Satan through Job. Do you think it worked?

God will use Job, not Jesus, to crush Satan’s accusations?

 

[Hiddenthings]

@TrevorHL let’s shift our conversation briefly from the incident involving the speaking snake to the much later incident involving the speaking donkey (Numbers 22:21-39).

Are we in agreement that the donkey is not the devil?

@shepherdsword, as you've likely observed, the issue lies in this imaginative backstory involving a ventriloquist speaking through a serpent, one that God had already created with both a voice and cunning.

That’s why Matthias keeps avoiding deeper questions about Genesis 3:1, he knows this fabricated story isn’t found anywhere in his “good book.”

A lie that grew larger and larger the more it was repeated.

You would think Christians today are describing Hell-Boy their minds are so deceived.

 

[soberxp]

That’s an interesting perspective: God is trying to educate Satan through Job. Do you think it worked?

I don't really Know.

God will use Job, not Jesus, to crush Satan’s accusations?

Of course, Satan accused Job to his face, saying that Job trusted God because God had given him so much wealth.

 

[Matthias]

I don't really Know.

I respect that.

Of course, Satan accused Job to his face, saying that Job trusted God because God had given him so much wealth.

I suppose that Job responding to God could be seen as Job not succumbing (finally) to the temptation, and not succumbing to temptation is, in a sense, crushing Satan’s accusations.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Of course, Satan accused Job to his face, saying that Job trusted God because God had given him so much wealth.

Similar to the envy Cain had toward Abel. It's a human thing sober.

 

[Hiddenthings]

Of course, Satan accused Job to his face, saying that Job trusted God because God had given him so much wealth.

Also explains why the human adversary asked God to strike him - this adversary was powerless.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Matthias,

Someone enabled the snake to speak.

Yes, God granted the serpent the ability to speak AND reason. What the serpent spoke was as a result of the serpent's reasoning, not by inspiration from the devil, nor from the devil being a ventriloquist.

That brings me next to broaching the subject of the occult with you.

Not sure what you have in mind here, but it seems invalid to me. I prefer what the Bible clearly teaches.

Keep in mind the proud Christadelphian boast on the forum that everyone who disagrees with his dogma constitutes “the satans.”

Strange comment. Yes the word Satan means adversary in a good or bad sense, but I do not have any adverse feelings towards those that have a different or opposing opinion. As far as being puffed up in pride, I do not feel proud, especially when talking to you as I am far less educated as I worked as an electrical draftsman most of my life drawing straight lines and some text, while you were a lecturer at an Academic Religious College. I am not one of our appointed ecclesial speakers, but certainly join in with any discussions on a variety of topics, and most of these are different to what I have discussed on forums.

Kind regards
Trevor