Christendom's Teachings verses the Bible

[Aunty Jane]

This is a thread designed to evaluate the Bible's teachings against what is accepted in Christendom as such.
I come from the perspective of being a believer in Christendom's doctrines until I actually checked out the Bible for myself, and when I studied it, I used my own KJV because it was the one I had read since childhood and I have to say, what I found was confronting....that was decades ago, and I am still learning.

I will list the things that impacted on my life as I learned them....one at a time.

My first question, after losing my father to an unexpected heart attack when I was 19 years old.....(which was completely unexpected).....I wanted to know where my father had gone.

I know how devastated were were, and I couldn't help but wonder if supporting the church financially was enough to get him into heaven...? Then it occurred to me that he must be feeling the same way that we were, being suddenly severed from our very close family.
Was he up there mourning the loss of us, as we were mourning for him? All of a sudden, going to heaven didn't seem like a wonderful thing. How could heaven ever be a happy place if God was up there snatching people away from their families and loved ones? What was the point of life on earth with all its troubles, if God was only going to send the dead to either heavenly bliss or eternal hellfire? Who was this God? I began to doubt him.

The church minister would not even conduct the funeral service because my parents were not church goers, so he sent his assistant to do the job. His empty and meaningless words made me angry....because my parents were poor, but gave to the church every week to support the minister. Yet, he never once visited our home or made any attempt to offer them spiritual support. If they were "lost sheep" that was his obligation. It was the first big 'crack' I saw, but certainly not the last.

Any attempt to answer my questions about death and what expectation there may have been for my Dad, were fobbed off because I think they thought he wasn't good enough to warrant their concern, and were too 'polite' to tell me that he might have died out of favor with God.

This just made me more determined to get my answers from the Bible.

Then JW's knocked on my door after me praying earnestly to God for answers to my questions.
So you can guess what my first question was...."where are the dead". I was expecting them to respond like all the others I had asked....but without a moment's hesitation they brought out their Bible and asked me to go and get mine....they showed me Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10, which in my KJV read...
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

No one had ever shown me anything like that before....the dead were not conscious, existing in another realm....they "know nothing", their emotions have "perished" even their LOVE! and they are 'not capable of work, plans, knowledge or wisdom in the grave'.....the dead are actually dead.....but not without hope, as they also showed me Jesus' promise to resurrect ALL those who were in their graves....this was not immortality of the soul, but a resurrection or restoration back to life.

John 5:28-29...
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

So ALL of the dead were going to experience a resurrection in the future...that hour was "coming".....and since my father was a good man, I hoped that Jesus would not forget him. I felt like a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders. He was not in heaven missing us, he was sleeping peacefully, never to be troubled by the problems of this life ever again. I can look forward to the time when Christ establishes his Father's Kingdom over redeemed mankind and Revelation 21:2-5 can have its fulfillment...

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

What a wonderful future! I hope to see my father again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

My next question was about teaching one thing and then doing the opposite...... “hypocrisy” is something God hates, and something for which the Pharisees in Jesus’ day were constantly accused of.
Jesus told them...
"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." . . .Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell [Gehenna]than yourselves. . . . Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. . . .Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell [Gehenna]? . . . .
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

In what ways are the religious leaders of Christendom hypocrites?

In Matthew 5:43-44 Jesus said...
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?"

In every war situation, the leaders of Christendom's churches have always supported the bloodshed of their nation's governments....this runs contrary to everything that Jesus taught.
If they had "Christian" brethren on the opposing side, they were instructed to kill them as "enemies". The clergy were there at the front line salving troubled consciences and assuring the combatants that God was on their side......but was he? How could he be on the side of those who were disobeying the direct command of his son? You cannot ‘love your enemies’ by killing them.

Why seek “friendship with the world” in order to curry favor, when doing so was contrary to Christian teaching? (James 4:4) There is no valid marriage between church and state. We are to be "no part of the world" and its conflicts (John 18:36)....for if we have blood on our hands, God will not accept our prayers. (Isaiah 1:15)

I also wanted to know why Christendom abandoned the simple Christian faith of the first century in favor of grand temples, special titles and distinctive garments for the clergy that set them apart from the laity. When Jesus walked the earth he told his disciples that "all you are brothers", with no distinctions or titles that elevated them above the flock. All positions in the Christian congregation were humble positions of service, not positions of power.

He said of the Pharisees...
"But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted."

Can we see Jesus dressed like this?

Do we remember why Judas had to betray Jesus with a kiss? It was because he was dressed like everyone else. Now if the son of God can dress without drawing attention to himself, doesn't that give the ones who claim to emulate him an example to follow?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Now let's talk about HELLFIRE.....the place where many in Christendom fear that they may end up if they don't pass muster at the judgment....

Is there such a place where God torments souls forever in flames that never go out? And worms that apparently never die?
What "hell" is this? Since the Jews had no concept of life after death except by resurrection, there were never any immortal souls that needed to go anywhere, let alone to be tortured by a fiendish God who felt that it was just to incarcerate sinful humans for all eternity to punish them for a short life of sin, which was not their fault in the first place. That is not justice!

When the unfaithful Israelites began serving the false god Molech, they were sacrificing their children in the fire to this god. What was Yahweh’s reaction?

Jeremiah 7:31....
“They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”

If God did not approve of something so heinous back then, why would he then do the same to his own children? This is not the God of the Bible, who is said to be tenderly compassionate and the epitome of love.

There is no hell of eternal torment.....there are only two options held out to humanity....eternal life or eternal death.....it’s nothing more complicated than that. Obey God and live....disobey him and die....nothing has changed since Eden. Obedience is all God has ever asked of us.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is a thread designed to evaluate the Bible's teachings against what is accepted in Christendom as such.
I come from the perspective of being a believer in Christendom's doctrines until I actually checked out the Bible for myself, and when I studied it, I used my own KJV because it was the one I had read since childhood and I have to say, what I found was confronting....that was decades ago, and I am still learning.

I will list the things that impacted on my life as I learned them....one at a time.

My first question, after losing my father to an unexpected heart attack when I was 19 years old.....(which was completely unexpected).....I wanted to know where my father had gone.

I know how devastated were were, and I couldn't help but wonder if supporting the church financially was enough to get him into heaven...? Then it occurred to me that he must be feeling the same way that we were, being suddenly severed from our very close family.
Was he up there mourning the loss of us, as we were mourning for him? All of a sudden, going to heaven didn't seem like a wonderful thing. How could heaven ever be a happy place if God was up there snatching people away from their families and loved ones? What was the point of life on earth with all its troubles, if God was only going to send the dead to either heavenly bliss or eternal hellfire? Who was this God? I began to doubt him.

The church minister would not even conduct the funeral service because my parents were not church goers, so he sent his assistant to do the job. His empty and meaningless words made me angry....because my parents were poor, but gave to the church every week to support the minister. Yet, he never once visited our home or made any attempt to offer them spiritual support. If they were "lost sheep" that was his obligation. It was the first big 'crack' I saw, but certainly not the last.

Any attempt to answer my questions about death and what expectation there may have been for my Dad, were fobbed off because I think they thought he wasn't good enough to warrant their concern, and were too 'polite' to tell me that he might have died out of favor with God.

This just made me more determined to get my answers from the Bible.

Then JW's knocked on my door after me praying earnestly to God for answers to my questions.
So you can guess what my first question was...."where are the dead". I was expecting them to respond like all the others I had asked....but without a moment's hesitation they brought out their Bible and asked me to go and get mine....they showed me Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10, which in my KJV read...
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

No one had ever shown me anything like that before....the dead were not conscious, existing in another realm....they "know nothing", their emotions have "perished" even their LOVE! and they are 'not capable of work, plans, knowledge or wisdom in the grave'.....the dead are actually dead.....but not without hope, as they also showed me Jesus' promise to resurrect ALL those who were in their graves....this was not immortality of the soul, but a resurrection or restoration back to life.

John 5:28-29...
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

So ALL of the dead were going to experience a resurrection in the future...that hour was "coming".....and since my father was a good man, I hoped that Jesus would not forget him. I felt like a great weight had been lifted from my shoulders. He was not in heaven missing us, he was sleeping peacefully, never to be troubled by the problems of this life ever again. I can look forward to the time when Christ establishes his Father's Kingdom over redeemed mankind and Revelation 21:2-5 can have its fulfillment...

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

What a wonderful future! I hope to see my father again.

Only if you and he are born again, if not the future is in the lake of fire which has thick smoke and darkness and torment in isolation.

But I truly hope you will see your Father in heaven.

YOu should know that Ecclesiastes was written before God revealed the world of the dead to ISrael. they also had no concept yet of the trichotomous nature of man. Body , soul and spirit. They knew of body and and spirit, but not he soul.

By Jesus day they knew and they also knew that the ophysically dead lived on apart from their bodies. This was confirmed in the account of Lazarus and teh rich man. This is not a story but an account of what is real. The knowledge of te three fold compartment of the grave/sheol/hades/hell was well known by the time of Jesus.

Placew of torments, Abrahams bosom/paradise, and Tartarus, the place where the rebellious angels of Genesis 6 are held.

Paul further confirmed this in Corinthians when He declared under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that when one is absent from the body- they are present with the Lord (if they are believers)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

In every war situation, the leaders of Christendom's churches have always supported the bloodshed of their nation's governments....this runs contrary to everything that Jesus taught.
If they had "Christian" brethren on the opposing side, they were instructed to kill them as "enemies". The clergy were there at the front line salving troubled consciences and assuring the combatants that God was on their side......but was he? How could he be on the side of those who were disobeying the direct command of his son? You cannot ‘love your enemies’ by killing them.

Wars happen because of sin. As it says in James people war for they have not so they take what is others. On a national level.

Jesus never condemned war. He never condemned anyone for being a soldier. He even called human government gods authority and they carry not the sword in vain.

Now I freely admit many in what you call christendom have taken "patriotism" far beyond what they should have.

I also wanted to know why Christendom abandoned the simple Christian faith of the first century in favor of grand temples, special titles and distinctive garments for the clergy that set them apart from the laity. When Jesus walked the earth he told his disciples that "all you are brothers", with no distinctions or titles that elevated them above the flock. All positions in the Christian congregation were humble positions of service, not positions of power.

well you are simply reading some propaganda material. for much of what you call christendom worship together in simple buildings. My pastor preaches in Jeans and flannel shirts often! But I can agree that all the ornate garbage is just that- garbage. It doesn't impress God one whit.

Do we remember why Judas had to betray Jesus with a kiss? It was because he was dressed like everyone else. Now if the son of God can dress without drawing attention to himself, doesn't that give the ones who claim to emulate him an example to follow?

Dress doesn't make one whit of difference to god! It is the heat attitude that god looks at. I forget where it is , but it is written, "Man looks on the outside, but God judges teh heart".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Now let's talk about HELLFIRE.....the place where many in Christendom fear that they may end up if they don't pass muster at the judgment....

Is there such a place where God torments souls forever in flames that never go out? And worms that apparently never die?
What "hell" is this? Since the Jews had no concept of life after death except by resurrection, there were never any immortal souls that needed to go anywhere, let alone to be tortured by a fiendish God who felt that it was just to incarcerate sinful humans for all eternity to punish them for a short life of sin, which was not their fault in the first place. That is not justice!

When the unfaithful Israelites began serving the false god Molech, they were sacrificing their children in the fire to this god. What was Yahweh’s reaction?

Jeremiah 7:31....
“They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart.’”

If God did not approve of something so heinous back then, why would he then do the same to his own children? This is not the God of the Bible, who is said to be tenderly compassionate and the epitome of love.

There is no hell of eternal torment.....there are only two options held out to humanity....eternal life or eternal death.....it’s nothing more complicated than that. Obey God and live....disobey him and die....nothing has changed since Eden. Obedience is all God has ever asked of us.

First off yout theology is wrong about teh high places where they burned kids. they were being offered to their false gods. The Lake of Fire is a place where the unbeliever is cast to suffer.

As Jesus said that is where their wailing and gnashing of teeth is continous.

Revelation tells us their torment ascends forever and ever.

YOu also forget that Jesus conquered death for everysingle soul that will ever live! Immortality of body , soul and spirit has been guarentted! So just as the believer goes to heaven, the unbeliever suffers eternal punishment.

Revelation 14:10-11
King James Version

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Their torment doesn't end in a flash by being burnt up- they are tormented forever and ever and ever.

Teh dead cannot be tormented!

I agree all we have is obedience or disobedience.

But remember what God said in the garden to Adam and Eve:

Genesis 2:17
King James Version

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now on teh day Adam ate- He did die, but not physically.

Paul reminds of this:

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Before I was "quickened" (made alive, saved) I was dead in trespasses and sins. but I was not physically dead but my spirit was dead!

Death and life do not always mean physical death or life or non-existence. I tmeans a state of separation from God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Only if you and he are born again, if not the future is in the lake of fire which has thick smoke and darkness and torment in isolation.

But I truly hope you will see your Father in heaven.

I will never see my father in heaven because heaven will only accommodate spirit beings. My father “sleeps” in his grave, and Jesus promises to call all the dead, both the righteous and the unrighteous out of their tombs at ‘an hour that is coming’. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15) He demonstrated this with Lazarus, whom he plainly said was “sleeping”....and which he said meant that he was 'dead'. (John 11:11-14)

The only ones called to heaven are God’s elect and I am not one of them...yet I am happy to serve my God in the place he intended all humans to live forever....right here in a restored paradise on earth. I am overjoyed to be ruled by those specially chosen by God to guide and direct mankind for the 1,000 years of the Kingdom's rule. (Revelation 20:6)

Revelation 21:2-4 gives us a foregleam of what life there will be like. God is clearly said to be with *mankind*.

 

[Aunty Jane]

YOu should know that Ecclesiastes was written before God revealed the world of the dead to ISrael. they also had no concept yet of the trichotomous nature of man. Body , soul and spirit. They knew of body and and spirit, but not he soul.

You do realize that the Jews apostatized on many occasions in their history, only to receive God’s judgment and often severe punishment....? But even though they adopted the pagan concept of an immortal soul in later times, that did not alter the fact that God’s word never even mentioned it. Solomon wrote under inspiration of the holy spirit so I will not argue with the truth he recorded in his contribution to scripture. Nothing he wrote contradicts any other statement in God’s word.....otherwise it is NOT God’s word but man’s.

The Bible does not state that man has a “body soul and spirit” in the way that Christendom teaches.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Paul addresses the entire body of Christians in his statement. Addressed collectively, this verse in no way confirms an immortal soul. This is written with Jewish understanding about those terms, not what was adopted later when Jesus told the religious leaders that they were bound for “Gehenna” because of their apostasy.

By Jesus day they knew and they also knew that the ophysically dead lived on apart from their bodies. This was confirmed in the account of Lazarus and teh rich man. This is not a story but an account of what is real. The knowledge of te three fold compartment of the grave/sheol/hades/hell was well known by the time of Jesus.

The parable is nothing to do with life after death.....the Jews had no such belief mentioned in their scripture, so Jesus would have stuck closely to God’s word rather than to deviate into the false teachings and traditions adopted by the Pharisees.
This “three fold compartment for the dead” rivals the RCC’s “limbo, purgatory and hell”...there is no such teaching in God’s word. By the time Jesus came, the Jewish leaders had lost the plot completely as Jesus said...(Matthew 15:7-9)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Placew of torments, Abrahams bosom/paradise, and Tartarus, the place where the rebellious angels of Genesis 6 are held.

You make these statements as if we should believe without evidence.....the place of torment is metaphorical because one has to be alive to suffer. The wicked would have to have eternal life to suffer eternal torment.....God grants eternal life only to the righteous.

The “bosom of Abraham” is a symbolic term denoting a position of favor with God. Abraham is the only human servant of God who was called “Yahweh’s friend”. The Jewish leaders held that position, not because they were faithful, but because God was. He kept that wayward, stiff-necked people in existence until his stated purpose in connection with them was fulfilled....their Messiah came right on time. After offering the first places in his kingdom to the people of the covenant.....after they murdered his son, God chose a new nation to represent his interests on earth. (Acts 15:14) This was “the Israel of God”....(Galatians 6:16) made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who were anointed with God’s spirit as a token of their heavenly calling. (Hebrews 3:1) Not all Christians receive the heavenly calling because those who rule with Christ are chosen specifically for rulership and priestly assignments in the heavenly kingdom. These will be resurrected “first”. (Revelation 20:6)

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17....
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (NKJV)

There it is.....the resurrection of the elect will take place at the Lord's "coming". The word "coming" there is misleading because his "parousia" is his presence which precedes his manifestation or "coming" as judge of all the world. Jesus is already here directing the biggest preaching campaign that the world will ever see before the curtain comes down on satan's entire system of things.
Those who sleep in their graves would not rise before the end times, so no one was to go to heaven until Christ's return. When he returned, then the dead in Christ (his elect) would "rise first".

All of the things Jesus mentioned in his end time prophesy would occur during his presence....the time when he appointed his "faithful and wise slave". (Matthew 24) He promised to be "with" his disciples all the days until the end of the age. (Matthew 28:19-20)

Paul further confirmed this in Corinthians when He declared under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that when one is absent from the body- they are present with the Lord (if they are believers)

You completely misconstrue that statement made by one who had the heavenly calling. (Hebrews 3:1) The anointing received by these ones has a powerful effect on them whilst they are in the flesh. Their primary desire is to leave all earthly things (including close family relationships) behind in order to be “born again” as spirit beings so that they can exist in the spirit realm. Paul said that not all have this calling.
1 Corinthians 1:2...
“Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours“. (1 Corinthians 1:2)KJV)
So all have the same Lord Jesus Christ, but not all are “called to be saints”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus never condemned war. He never condemned anyone for being a soldier. He even called human government gods authority and they carry not the sword in vain.

Jesus condemned bloodshed...period. The only one who can sanctify the shedding of blood is the one who created it.....all wars fought in Israel were in defense of their God given land. But due to their continued disobedience, they lost it to foreign invaders. When Jesus walked the earth, the Jews were spread out in foreign countries as Rome dominated the holy land. Israel didn’t even have an army when Jesus walked among them, nor did he ever advocate meddling in politics or taking up weapons for their defense. When the apostles were arrested, they were not to resist......as Jesus demonstrated in the garden on the night of his arrest. The swords he told his apostles to buy were not to be used, but to demonstrate that although they may have been armed, they would not resort to violence. When Peter impetuously did, Jesus rebuked him and healed the man that he injured. He told them that “those who live by the sword will die by the sword”......substitute any weapon, and it means the same thing. NO Christian can participate in bloodshed. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5; Romans 12:17-21; Isaiah 1:15)

Now I freely admit many in what you call christendom have taken "patriotism" far beyond what they should have.

Christendom is not genuine Christianity by any stretch of anyone's imagination. I don't call them Christendom....the dictionary does. Since they all share the same base beliefs, they all come under one umbrella....in fact, all false worship comes under one designation..."Babylon the great"....all of Christendom's doctrines can be traced back to original Babylon...the springboard of all the false worship in the world. We are commanded to "get out of her".....(Revelation 18:4-5)

well you are simply reading some propaganda material. for much of what you call christendom worship together in simple buildings. My pastor preaches in Jeans and flannel shirts often! But I can agree that all the ornate garbage is just that- garbage. It doesn't impress God one whit.

The ones who served God in Israel were to dress respectfully when coming into the temple for worship.....would we dress in jeans and a flannel shirt to gain audience with a human king? Why would we treat the Creator with less respect?

Dress doesn't make one whit of difference to god! It is the heat attitude that god looks at. I forget where it is , but it is written, "Man looks on the outside, but God judges teh heart".

True, but God looks at the outside too.....or else he would not have had such a strict dress code for his priests in Israel. All that was dispensed with under the new covenant, but Christendom gravitated back to the pomp and ceremony. It must have made them feel important to elevate themselves above the flock....just like the Pharisees.

 

[Aunty Jane]

First off yout theology is wrong about teh high places where they burned kids. they were being offered to their false gods. The Lake of Fire is a place where the unbeliever is cast to suffer.

As Jesus said that is where their wailing and gnashing of teeth is continous.

Since there is no immortal soul that survives the death of the body, the terminology must be figurative....you have to be alive to suffer, but nothing alive ever went into "gehenna"....it was a place to dispose of garbage....even human garbage.
Jesus said..."And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [gehenna]"
So those in gehenna are destroyed, not tortured.

Revelation tells us their torment ascends forever and ever.

No, actually it speaks of the "smoke of their torment" which will serve as a reminder of what transpired....so that it can never be repeated.
Have you seen what remains after a fire tears through a neighborhood after wildfires? The ashes often smoulder for days or even weeks afterwards. The smoke is a reminder of what happened there.

YOu also forget that Jesus conquered death for everysingle soul that will ever live! Immortality of body , soul and spirit has been guarentted! So just as the believer goes to heaven, the unbeliever suffers eternal punishment.

Not even close to the Bible's narrative. No one was going to heaven when God created mankind.....this earth was to be our permanent home. Nothing in the Bible argues with that. Adam was not warned about heaven and hell....he was offered only life or death, which meant a return to the dust....nothing more. (Genesis 3:19)

Their torment doesn't end in a flash by being burnt up- they are tormented forever and ever and ever.

Teh dead cannot be tormented!

Are you sure of what you just said? "The dead cannot be tormented"....because the dead are actually...DEAD.

I agree all we have is obedience or disobedience.

But remember what God said in the garden to Adam and Eve:

Genesis 2:17
King James Version

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Now on teh day Adam ate- He did die, but not physically.

According to the scriptures, no human reached a thousand years of age, although some got close.
2 Peter 3:8...
"But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."
All humans die in that counting of a "day". The further they are away from the perfection with which they were created, the younger death was to overtake them. So yes, they died spiritually that very day, but also physically because God doesn't lie.

Paul reminds of this:

Ephesians 2
King James Version

2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Before I was "quickened" (made alive, saved) I was dead in trespasses and sins. but I was not physically dead but my spirit was dead!

Death and life do not always mean physical death or life or non-existence. I tmeans a state of separation from God.

Those separated from God by sin were provided with a bridge between them and their Creator....God gave mankind a "mediator" between himself and sinners who were repentant, but trapped by their sinful nature.

Think about that for a moment.....if God gave us a "mediator" between us and God....the mediator cannot at the same time BE God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I will never see my father in heaven because heaven will only accommodate spirit beings. My father “sleeps” in his grave, and Jesus promises to call all the dead, both the righteous and the unrighteous out of their tombs at ‘an hour that is coming’. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15) He demonstrated this with Lazarus, whom he plainly said was “sleeping”....and which he said meant that he was 'dead'. (John 11:11-14)

The only ones called to heaven are God’s elect and I am not one of them...yet I am happy to serve my God in the place he intended all humans to live forever....right here in a restored paradise on earth. I am overjoyed to be ruled by those specially chosen by God to guide and direct mankind for the 1,000 years of the Kingdom's rule. (Revelation 20:6)

Revelation 21:2-4 gives us a foregleam of what life there will be like. God is clearly said to be with *mankind*.

Well that is the vomit you regurgitate from teh Watchtower but it is wrong.

Heaven comes down to earth and the church will be in heaven as Jesus bride and that number ios far far greater than 144,000

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You do realize that the Jews apostatized on many occasions in their history, only to receive God’s judgment and often severe punishment....? But even though they adopted the pagan concept of an mortal soul in later times, that did not alter the fact that God’s word never even mentioned it. Solomon wrote under inspiration of the holy spirit so I will not argue with the truth he recorded in his contribution to scripture. Nothing he wrote contradicts any other statement in God’s word.....otherwise it is NOT God’s word but man’s.

The Bible does not state that man has a “body soul and spirit” in the way that Christendom teaches.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:23 Paul addresses the entire body of Christians in his statement. Addressed collectively, this verse in no way confirms an immortal soul. This is written with Jewish understanding about those terms, not what was adopted later when Jesus told the religious leaders that they were bound for “Gehenna” because of their apostasy.

You are just dead wrong. You are now guilty of retranslating teh Inspired Word of God!

Yes solomon did write under the Spirit. but there are many NT Truths that were not revealed or understood by OT writers.
When jesus spoke of Lazarus and the Rich man- He knew that there was Abrahams bosom and "hell". He also knoew that if it wasd a pagan concept He would have been implicitly confirmiong them

Remember that cocka-mamey story the Watchtower came up to reinterpret Lazarus and the rich man with did not exist for close to 20 centuries.
So you now have to say that God allowed believers to believe a lie for almost 2,000 years, until the writers of the Watchtower published that "interpretation" of teh story.

Sorry but that doesn't wash with history and reality and the SCriptures!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You make these statements as if we should believe without evidence.....the place of torment is metaphorical because one has to be alive to suffer. The wicked would have to have eternal life to suffer eternal torment.....God grants eternal life only to the righteous.

The “bosom of Abraham” is a symbolic term denoting a position of favor with God. Abraham is the only human servant of God who was called “Yahweh’s friend”. The Jewish leaders held that position, not because they were faithful, but because God was. He kept that wayward, stiff-necked people in existence until his stated purpose in connection with them was fulfilled....their Messiah came right on time. After offering the first places in his kingdom to the people of the covenant.....after they murdered his son, God chose a new nation to represent his interests on earth. (Acts 15:14) This was “the Israel of God”....(Galatians 6:16) made up of both Jewish and Gentile Christians who were anointed with God’s spirit as a token of their heavenly calling. (Hebrews 3:1) Not all Christians receive the heavenly calling because those who rule with Christ are chosen specifically for rulership and priestly assignments in the heavenly kingdom. These will be resurrected “first”. (Revelation 20:6)

So every one had this wrong- including Israel until CT RUssell and his band of merry men said they got it right? Yeah and I have land 10 miles south of the Florida Keys to sell you!

There is evvidence- But you have to take Jesus at His Word instead of the Watchtower at their Word.

Even the pentitent thief knows the Watchtower has deceived you! He is in paradise right now! Noit that 5 year old playing with a comma that teh watchtower does.

There it is.....the resurrection of the elect will take place at the Lord's "coming". The word "coming" there is misleading because his "parousia" is his presence which precedes his manifestation or "coming" as judge of all the world. Jesus is already here directing the biggest preaching campaign that the world will ever see before the curtain comes down on satan's entire system of things.
Those who sleep in their graves would not rise before the end times, so no one was to go to heaven until Christ's return. When he returned, then the dead in Christ (his elect) would "rise first".

Well this has many many ewrrors so I will focus on one.

the body is resurrected! The spirit and soul is already in heaven for the believer!

As Paul wrote:

2 Corinthians 5:8
King James Version

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Now you would have to disobey watchtower rules and do independent bible study and think for yourself instead of the organization doing your thinking for you.

Paul spoke of present not a future to be present with the Lord.

And He said He is more than just his body! for he said if he is absent from HIS BODY, He would be present with the Lord! And what would be present??????? Well those two pieces He mentioned in his trifold blessing of body(soma) soul (psuche) spirit(pneuma)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You completely misconstrue that statement made by one who had the heavenly calling. (Hebrews 3:1) The anointing received by these ones has a powerful effect on them whilst they are in the flesh. Their primary desire is to leave all earthly things (including close family relationships) behind in order to be “born again” as spirit beings so that they can exist in the spirit realm. Paul said that not all have this calling.
1 Corinthians 1:2...
“Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours“. (1 Corinthians 1:2)KJV)
So all have the same Lord Jesus Christ, but not all are “called to be saints”.

Now you are lying against the Word of God. Paul could have written that under the INspiration of the Holy Spirit. But He didn't! God does not need an editor called the Watchtower. What Paul wrote is inopposition to Watchtower teaching.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Since there is no immortal soul that survives the death of the body, the terminology must be figurative....you have to be alive to suffer, but nothing alive ever went into "gehenna"....it was a place to dispose of garbage....even human garbage.
Jesus said..."And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [gehenna]"
So those in gehenna are destroyed, not tortured.

wow you allegorize literal passages and then become woodenly literal when jesus is making a comparison! But as it says the smoke of their agony will ascend forever and ever.

If they are killed immediately by intense flames- their agony ends!

So you really think that god is going to resurrect all them lost people, reconstitute their bodies that have turned to dust and have been scattered or are fish food and fish droppings, just to kill them all over again???????????????

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Christendom is not genuine Christianity by any stretch of anyone's imagination. I don't call them Christendom....the dictionary does. Since they all share the same base beliefs, they all come under one umbrella....in fact, all false worship comes under one designation..."Babylon the great"....all of Christendom's doctrines can be traced back to original Babylon...the springboard of all the false worship in the world. We are commanded to "get out of her"..

Please show me th epoll you conducted that shows no one by imagination considers the teachings of the bible Babylon!

But I agree Christendom - or the external form of Christianity is apostate, but not because that many hold some correct doctrines.

But all JW's are not Christians and are lost for one reason!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The ones who served God in Israel were to dress respectfully when coming into the temple for worship.....would we dress in jeans and a flannel shirt to gain audience with a human king? Why would we treat the Creator with less respect?

So now you are reading minds and without even knowing my pastor think he is trying to gain favor with human kings? God condemns divination like you are practicing!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

True, but God looks at the outside too.....or else he would not have had such a strict dress code for his priests in Israel. All that was dispensed with under the new covenant, but Christendom gravitated back to the pomp and ceremony. It must have made them feel important to elevate themselves above the flock....just like the Pharisees.

But yet you condemn NT priests for the way they dress! Do you have a sore neck from twisitng it so quickly?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, actually it speaks of the "smoke of their torment" which will serve as a reminder of what transpired....so that it can never be repeated.
Have you seen what remains after a fire tears through a neighborhood after wildfires? The ashes often smoulder for days or even weeks afterwards. The smoke is a reminder of what happened there.

Once again you are lying against teh word of God. God di dnot say it is a reminder of what hapeened forever!

He said their agony would ascend forever! Stop retranslating the word of God according to the dictates of the Watchtower! God is smart enough to tell people it is a reminder. He doesn't need self proclaimed prophets telling HIm what He meant! If this was couched in symbolic language that would be different, but it is not so we don't need interpretation, but obedience.