"Christian" Doctrines That Are Not Biblical

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER Jesus returned to heaven?

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames?

8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

 

[Episkopos]

The doctrine of unconditional salvation is way out there. It denies the whole teaching of the bible in order to invent a religion of salvation based on a "saving gnosis".

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER Jesus returned to heaven?

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames?

8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

This is not the right way to determine if somewthing is biblical or not. The devil can more easily use a biblical word in his twisting. So the criteria for truth is not that the word is found in the bible.

God is a "trinity" in the sense that God is a family....of Father, Son, and Spirit. I personally believe that the Father is greater than both the Son and the Spirit. But they are of ONE essence. We are caled to join this family as sons of God through faith in joining and abiding in Christ so that we become exactly as He is. Those who attain to the full stature of Christ will rule and reign with Him in the next age.

 

[ttruscott]

So why do you think that GOD can't / won't / doesn't communicate the clear simple truth?

Every simple doctrine can plainly be read different ways, and usually is, according to the predisposition of the reader. What does that imply about GOD's methods? Doesn't it imply that HE wants it this way?

HE allows this to happen for a reason. Why doesn't HE just appear in the sky to everyone at the same time and tell them to sit down and be nice to each other as the atheists demand before they will believe?

Well, to my mind, such proof would destroy faith and GOD wants us to live by faith. Basically the scriptures are written so that anyone can believe or disbelieve anything they want to, there is just no proof in them. No proof that will convince other people anyway.

In this way GOD allows us each to choose where to put our faith, by which we actually define our own reality, the world view we live in which also defines both God and our relationship with Him from our point of view. "This is what I believe" means "This is the way I think it is, the reality of the universe." 2 Corinthians 5:7 We live by faith, not by sight.

[Since there is no proof either that GOD does NOT exist and the scriptures are NOT true, atheists also define reality by choosing what they believe, putting their faith in a reality without GOD.]

The other area in which most of us have no proof is in the leading of the Holy Spirit. By proof I mean something I can show to someone else as irrefutably the leading of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of GOD inspired the scriptures, inspires interpretations of those scriptures, inspires translations of those scriptures then further interpretations and speaks to the prophets.

All of this yet there is no concise perfect acceptance of any one authority about it all. We all get to follow the voice that tells us the reality we want to hear.

FAITH
• Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
• Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

2 Corinthians 5:7
We live by faith, not by sight. (the external or outward appearance, form figure, shape)

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the conviction / evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:1 is probably the most concise definition of faith found in the Bible. It is considered the classical definition of faith. Faith is both the substance of things hoped for and the evidence that things exist that are not yet perceived with the senses, ie the basis of hope and the conviction of things not proven.

Belief ≠ faith:
James 2:19, KJV
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble, because their belief is not faith since it is based on proof.

Devils have proof:
Luke 4:34
"Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are--the Holy One of God!"

know: Strong's G1492 - eidō
1) to see
a) to perceive with the eyes
B) to perceive by any of the senses
c) to perceive, notice, discern, discover
d) to see

the opposite of "unseen things" and "not by sight."

So why does GOD want us to live by faith and not by sight? If faith alone is the big answer, why is the faith of Muslems, Hindus and others NOT honoured?

Because faith has no magic, it is merely the process by which we make our choice at the deepest level of hope and conviction of the reality we want. It is the great divider between people and the great bond between the like minded.

And inside of large groups such as the Christian world, faith achieves the same purpose. Everyone is declaring where they put their trust, their hope and their conviction by their belief in a certain reality.

The funny thing is that in the pre-earth spirit world it was all theoretical but here on earth every person gets to live according to their faith in their true free will choice to accept GOD's purpose for their creation or to reject it for a different reality of their choice.

Peace, Ted

 

[servantfiss]

Greetings Alter , you seem to be quite corn fuzed , I must ask sir and or madam as the case may be , did you post this to learn about it ? Or did you post this because you actually believe what you wrote , for those are quite the statements you made . In fact they are both true , if you want to learn of these things , then post back so I'm not wasteing my time quoteing scripture for nothing . :)

 

[biggandyy]

meh, other words like sacrament and apostasy and incarnate are also not in scripture. So what's your point? Just more milquetoast pablum from my perspective.

 

[Groundzero]

Hmmm, some action burst forth on my screen

One suggestion: perhaps we should have separate threads for the topics, since they are different from each other?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi biggandyy,

Wouldn't you say that 'incarnate' is just a fancy Latin word for 'made flesh'?



Hi ttruscott,

We all get to follow the voice that tells us the reality we want to hear.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Romans 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Faith is not a matter of imagination. Imagination (as it appears most often in the Old Testament) means stubbornness. God's word produces faith in us, which either we run with as the devout Jews on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem, or we drop like a hot potato.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Greetings Alter , you seem to be quite corn fuzed , I must ask sir and or madam as the case may be , did you post this to learn about it ? Or did you post this because you actually believe what you wrote , for those are quite the statements you made . In fact they are both true , if you want to learn of these things , then post back so I'm not wasteing my time quoteing scripture for nothing . :)

ALTER2EGO -to- SERVANTFISS.
I can assure you that I am not the least bit confused. As a Christian, I am well versed in the scriptures. I actually believe what I wrote, as follows.

1. The Trinity is not a Bible teaching.
2. Hellfire torment is not a Bible teaching.

I intend to prove both by means of scriptures from God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. The challenge is whether any of the other Christians who believe the above are willing to be corrected by the scriptures.

I know from experience that people tend to dogmatically argue for what amounts to false Roman Catholic doctrines. In fact, people tend to show their true colors when it involves discussion of Trinity and hellfire torment. They can get pretty nasty, and the recurring sentiment is that they don't care what the Bible really says. It's all about what they choose to believe. You will see this for yourself as the discussion heats up. Watch for comments from people along the following lines.

1. If you don't believe in the Trinity you're not a Christian.

2. The Trinity is a mystery that sinful humans are not supposed to understand [a classic escape hatch used by Trinitarians so they can get out of explaining this unexplainable, illogical pagan doctrine]

3. God doesn't send people to burn in hell. They put themselves there because of being disobedient, etc., etc.


WHAT TO WATCH FOR FROM TRINITARIANS AND HELLFIRE HOWLERS:
Cherry picking, cherry picking, cherry picking. They will ignore context routinely and at times will select a few words out of an entire verse, while ignoring everything else. Context refers to the surrounding words, verses, and chapters. Context destroys Trinity and hellfire everytime. People who believe in Trinity and hellfire routinely dodge context like the plague. And when I point out the context to them, do you suppose it makes any difference? When I ask them viewpoint questions based upon the context, I usually get no answers. They ignore my questions and present me with more out-of-context verses that they insist is proof of Trinity or hellfire.


Anyway, we can start with the questions in my opening post and take it from there. However, if I conclude you only want to argue for arguments sake, I will not indulge you as that's not what I'm here for. The objective of this thread is to see what the Bible really says -- or doesn't say -- about Trinity and hellfire.

 

[mark s]

1. If you don't believe in the Trinity you're not a Christian.

2. The Trinity is a mystery that sinful humans are not supposed to understand [a classic escape hatch used by Trinitarians so they can get out of explaining this unexplainable, illogical pagan doctrine]

3. God doesn't send people to burn in hell. They put themselves there because of being disobedient, etc., etc.

1. Receiving Jesus, believing in His name is what makes you a Christian. As anyone on these boards an attest, you can have many an varied doctrinal errors and still be a Christian.

2. Whether or not you can explain something has no bearing on whether or not that thing is true. To argue otherwise is a logical fallacy.

3. By "hell", do you refer to "sheol/hades", the "lake of fire", both?

The Triune God

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

In Deuteronomy 6:4 we read “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

In Hebrew, this is “YHWH Elohim, YHWH echad” – echad means, at its root, to be unified. It’s first usage in the Bible is Genesis 1:4 “and there was evening, and there was morning, one day” – a day made of two parts that were unified. Echad is used of one object or person, but is also used of compound unities, such as the first day. Echad is used of the married couple “the two shall become one (echad) flesh”

“YHWH Elohim (Plural God) YHWH unified” This leads us to the doctrine called The Trinity, or Triune God. This is what we find as we study the Bible. God identifies Himself as YHWH, but also is called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these are separate and distinct persons, each are God, and yet we know the “LORD is One.”

Perhaps the clearest picture of our Triune God is at the baptism of Jesus.

Matthew 3:16 “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

This was not the same Person. There was One speaking in heaven, One descending from heaven to earth, and One standing upon the earth.

The Father said, "This is My Son, in Whom I am well pleased." The Father recognized that the Son was Someone other than Himself, rather, His Son.

Some other verses that speak of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit:

2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel (God with us).

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Matthew 10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit

Each are called God:

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Acts 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Each acts in the same capacities as God:

Creating:

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?

Colossians 1:16 (speaking of Jesus) For by him were all things created,

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Psalm 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

John 1:3 (of Jesus) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gives to us eternal life:

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Galatians 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Raised Jesus from the dead:

1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but made alive by the Spirit:

Everywhere at once (omnipresent):

Jereriah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Ephesians 1:23 (speaking of Jesus) Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Psalm 139:7-8 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Saves us:

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Titus 3:4-6 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

So we find in the scripture that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each individuals, each are God, and that there is only One God. There are many ways people use to try to describe or understand this doctrine (teaching) of the Trinity, all fall short.

 

[Alter2Ego]

1. Receiving Jesus, believing in His name is what makes you a Christian. As anyone on these boards an attest, you can have many an varied doctrinal errors and still be a Christian.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
It involves more than that. It involves being a footstep follower of Jesus Christ, following the examples he set. A person who follows doctrinal errors that came from human philosophies and thinks his claims about "still being a Christian" will make him/her acceptable to the Creator is in serious denial. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Almighty God YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh will not accept anything less than true worship.

"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and TRUTH." (John 4:24)


You do know the meaning of the word "must," don't you? It means there is no deviation, no negotiation, no half-truths.

 

[mark s]

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
It involves more than that. It involves being a footstep follower of Jesus Christ, following the examples he set. A person who follows doctrinal errors that came from human philosophies and thinks his claims about "still being a Christian" will make him/her acceptable to the Creator is in serious denial. The Bible makes it abundantly clear that Almighty God YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh will not accept anything less than true worship.

"God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and TRUTH." (John 4:24)


You do know the meaning of the word "must," don't you? It means there is no deviation, no negotiation, no half-truths.

Hi Alter2ego,

It sounds to me that you have not really considered the implications of your view.

If you must have perfect knowledge about all doctrine to be worshiping God, I think this will disqualify everyone. Are you the perfect one, in whom is no error?

When you say, following the examples Jesus set, are you another proponent of keeping the Mosaic Law?

The Bible is perfectly clear that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible is also clear that there is only one God. These are Scriptural truth.

Claims of being a Christian of course are not what make one acceptible to God. Many people claim to be Christians. Receiving God's reconciliation, that is what makes you acceptable to God.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Alter2Ego]

Hi Alter2ego,

It sounds to me that you have not really considered the implications of your view.

If you must have perfect knowledge about all doctrine to be worshiping God, I think this will disqualify everyone. Are you the perfect one, in whom is no error?

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S:
Christian doctrines should be based upon what Jesus Christ clearly taught. If it is not found within the pages of the Bible, then it is nothing more than human philosophy aka traditions of men. One does not have to be perfect to understand that.

When you say, following the examples Jesus set, are you another proponent of keeping the Mosaic Law?

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S:
No, I am not about the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was between Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH and the ancient Hebrews/Israelites. The Gentile nations (non-Jews) were never a part of that. Furthermore, Jesus said he fulfilled the Mosaic Law, thereby making it obsolete.

"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy but to fulfill;" (Matthew 5:17)



The example Jesus set for his Christian followers was that they have love for Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH first and foremost--which involves having a love of religious truths. Therefore, false docrines must fall by the wayside. Second only to that was that true Christians must love their neighbors.

"{37} He [Jesus] said to him: "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind." {38} This is the greatest and first commandment. {39} The second, like it, is this, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." {40} On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40)



Specifically, Jesus Christ established a New Commandment known as the Law of Love.

"I am giving you a NEW COMMANDMENT, that you LOVE ONE ANOTHER; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another," (John 13:34)

The Bible is perfectly clear that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible is also clear that there is only one God. These are Scriptural truth.

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S:
You are contradicting yourself. You just mentioned three different entities. Only the Father is Almighty God. Jesus Christ is his created son--a distinctly separate being who is a minor god. The holy spirit is not God; it belongs to God. It is an extension of God's power that he sends forth to get things done.


BTW: I will be responding to the long list of scriptures you presented in your initial post shortly. I will do so over the next few days.

 

[mark s]

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S:
Christian doctrines should be based upon what Jesus Christ clearly taught. If it is not found within the pages of the Bible, then it is nothing more than human philosophy aka traditions of men. One does not have to be perfect to understand that.



ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S:
No, I am not about the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was between Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH and the ancient Hebrews/Israelites. The Gentile nations (non-Jews) were never a part of that. Furthermore, Jesus said he fulfilled the Mosaic Law, thereby making it obsolete.

"Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy but to fulfill;" (Matthew 5:17)



The example Jesus set for his Christian followers was that they have love for Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH first and foremost--which involves having a love of religious truths. Therefore, false docrines must fall by the wayside. Second only to that was that true Christians must love their neighbors.

"{37} He [Jesus] said to him: "You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind." {38} This is the greatest and first commandment. {39} The second, like it, is this, "You must love your neighbor as yourself." {40} On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40)



Specifically, Jesus Christ established a New Commandment known as the Law of Love.

"I am giving you a NEW COMMANDMENT, that you LOVE ONE ANOTHER; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another," (John 13:34)



ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S:
You are contradicting yourself. You just mentioned three different entities. Only the Father is Almighty God. Jesus Christ is his created son--a distinctly separate being who is a minor god. The holy spirit is not God; it belongs to God. It is an extension of God's power that he sends forth to get things done.


BTW: I will be responding to the long list of scriptures you presented in your initial post shortly. I will do so over the next few days.

I have not contradicted myself. I have shown you Scriptures that say each of these three is God. I have also shown you Scripture that there is only one God. You are the one that must contend with that.

And so, you have done so by denying the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, and by claiming at least 2 gods.

You have revealed yourself as polythiestic.

 

[Alter2Ego]

I have not contradicted myself. I have shown you Scriptures that say each of these three is God. I have also shown you Scripture that there is only one God. You are the one that must contend with that.

And so, you have done so by denying the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, and by claiming at least 2 gods.

You have revealed yourself as polythiestic.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
Me, polytheistic? Hardly. You are stating a badly flawed personal opinion about me, while you have no problem worshipping a 3-prong god that was adopted from paganism.

DEFINITION OF "POLYTHEISM"
"belief in or worship of many gods, or more than one god"
http://www.yourdicti...com/polytheism?


I don't worship Jesus. I respect him as my leader. Jesus Christ himself instructed as follows.
"Neither be called "leaders," for your Leader is one, the Christ." (Matthew 23:10)


I value him as my redeemer from Adamic sin by means of his shed blood.
"By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness." (Ephesians 1:7)


I need him as the mediator so that he can intercede with Almighty God on my behalf.
"{5} For there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, a man, CHRIST JESUS, {6} who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all -- this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times." (1 Timothy 2:5-6)


I recognize him as the most powerful of God's created angels and God's reigning king. But do I worship Jesus? No, never. Only YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh should be worshipped.

 

[mark s]

This should be fairly informative . . .

What is your understanding of this passage?

John 1:1-14 LITV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) He was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
(4) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men;
(5) and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
(6) There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
(7) He came for a witness, that he might witness concerning the Light, that all might believe through Him.
(8) He was not that Light, but that he might witness concerning the Light.
(9) He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
(10) He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
(11) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
(12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
(13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
(14) And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.

DEFINITION OF "POLYTHEISM"
"belief in or worship of many gods, or more than one god"
http://www.yourdicti...com/polytheism?

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S:
You are contradicting yourself. You just mentioned three different entities. Only the Father is Almighty God. Jesus Christ is his created son--a distinctly separate being who is a minor god. The holy spirit is not God; it belongs to God. It is an extension of God's power that he sends forth to get things done.

Polythiesm.

So . . . are you a Jehovah's Witness?

 

[Alter2Ego]

This should be fairly informative . . .

What is your understanding of this passage?

John 1:1-14 LITV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) He was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
(4) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men;
(5) and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
(6) There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
(7) He came for a witness, that he might witness concerning the Light, that all might believe through Him.
(8) He was not that Light, but that he might witness concerning the Light.
(9) He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
(10) He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
(11) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
(12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
(13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
(14) And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
John 1:1-14 will do you no good because it's not talking Trinity according to its context. For that matter, you will not find a single verse of scripture in the Judeo-Christian Bible that talks about Trinity. John 1:1 is among the wall of scriptures you posted to me at Post #9 of this thread. I will get to all of your scriptures. However, based upon your responses thus far, I very much doubt my showing you the context in each of your scriptures will make much of a difference. Unless an individual is willing to reason on the scriptures, I could show him or her context from now until kingdom come, and the individual will not budge. So with that in mind, I will respond to your "Trinitarian" verses for the benefit of others who might gain some insight from my explanations.

So . . . are you a Jehovah's Witness?

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
Why? Is that part of this thread topic? Is it possible that you, as a Christian, have something against Jehovah's Witnesses?


Let me know.

2. Whether or not you can explain something has no bearing on whether or not that thing is true. To argue otherwise is a logical fallacy.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
You are using the classic Trinitarian escape hatch: "If you can't explain it, don't deal with it. Just believe it and hope God accepts it." That escape hatch enables Trinitarians to dodge the bullet. That way, they don't have to face the reality that the dogma defies all logic and is unexplainable.

3. By "hell", do you refer to "sheol/hades", the "lake of fire", both?

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
By the use of the Biblical expression "hell," I am referring to its synonyms "sheol" and "hades". All three expressions equate to the common grave of mankind. The "lake of fire" is something entirely different. The "lake of fire" and "Gehenna" are synonyms. They are figurative language that mean permanent death or permanent destruction from which there will be no resurrection.

 

[mark s]

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
John 1:1-14 will do you no good because it's not talking Trinity according to its context. For that matter, you will not find a single verse of scripture in the Judeo-Christian Bible that talks about Trinity. John 1:1 is among the wall of scriptures you posted to me at Post #9 of this thread. I will get to all of your scriptures. However, based upon your responses thus far, I very much doubt my showing you the context in each of your scriptures will make much of a difference. Unless an individual is willing to reason on the scriptures, I could show him or her context from now until kingdom come, and the individual will not budge. So with that in mind, I will respond to your "Trinitarian" verses for the benefit of others who might gain some insight from my explanations.

Hi alter2ego,

John 1 does not have to "do me any good" in this discussion, you are who will need to contend with that.

The simplicity of the Scripture says this. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Just right there, you have an issue with One who both IS and is WITH God. Most interesting!

But's let's leave trinity discussion aside for the moment. This Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The One Who dwelt among us was God. Jesus is God. So . . . either there's something here that you can't quite explain, or you have 2 gods, and you are polythiestic, which is flatly contradicted by Scripture - there is one God.

This is the reasoning from the Scriptures.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
Why? Is that part of this thread topic? Is it possible that you, as a Christian, have something against Jehovah's Witnesses?

Something against Jehovah's Witnesses? No, not personally, just their false doctrines with which they try to lead people into bondage with.

Seems to me that you've targeted 2 of their pet doctrines, so I can't help but wonder.

I noticed you did not answer the question. Is this to be a big secret? Why would you not want to answer this?

A Jehovah's Witness will try to argue "a god" in John 1. They will try to argue "destruction" in Matt 25:46. I won't bother to list all the arguments. I'm certain you'll bring them up.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
You are using the classic Trinitarian escape hatch: "If you can't explain it, don't deal with it. Just believe it and hope God accepts it." That escape hatch enables Trinitarians to dodge the bullet. That way, they don't have to face the reality that the dogma defies all logic and is unexplainable.

Call it what you will, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that you cannot explain Quantum Particle Entanglement. Yet it exists.

You can riducule the notion that there may be things we cannot explain, but that doesn't make it not so.

Tell me, you who can understand and explain everything, by what process do the zygote cells know to differentiate?

What was the original composition of the created earth?

I could go on, but that is the point. If you cannot understand everything about the creation, why should you expect to understand everything about the Creator.

Even if I can't explain it . . . well, I'll let someone else say it:

Argumentum ad logicam (argument to logic). This is the fallacy of assuming that something is false simply because a proof or argument that someone has offered for it is invalid; this reasoning is fallacious because there may be another proof or argument that successfully supports the proposition.

From: http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html (well worth learning)

But having raised this point before, it seems you are not too concerned with logical fallacies.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
By the use of the Biblical expression "hell," I am referring to its synonyms "sheol" and "hades". All three expressions equate to the common grave of mankind. The "lake of fire" is something entirely different. The "lake of fire" and "Gehenna" are synonyms. They are figurative language that mean permanent death or permanent destruction from which there will be no resurrection.

Thank you for your clarification.

Of course, the language used is very specific of everlasting torment.

 

[Groundzero]

This should be fairly informative . . .

What is your understanding of this passage?

John 1:1-14 LITV
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) He was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
(4) In Him was life, and the life was the light of men;
(5) and the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not overtake it.
(6) There was a man sent from God; his name was John.
(7) He came for a witness, that he might witness concerning the Light, that all might believe through Him.
(8) He was not that Light, but that he might witness concerning the Light.
(9) He was the true Light; He enlightens every man coming into the world.
(10) He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him, yet the world did not know Him.
(11) He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
(12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave authority to become children of God, to the ones believing into His name,
(13) who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
(14) And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, glory as of an only begotten from the Father, full of grace and of truth.

You know, I love it when people pull this verse up as 'support' for the Trinity. Check out what I highlighted. If anything, this Scripture supports the fact that Jesus alone is the supreme deity that we reverently refer to as the Father.

The Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. You cannot separate someone's voice from him. At least I hope not, because in that case, I've got two different persons inside me as well!

This Scripture verse doesn't lend any support whatsoever to the Trinity. All it states, was that the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God, and more than that, the Word was manifest in the flesh!

The Word was God and still IS God.

The simplicity of the Scripture says this. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Just right there, you have an issue with One who both IS and is WITH God. Most interesting!

But's let's leave trinity discussion aside for the moment. This Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The One Who dwelt among us was God. Jesus is God. So . . . either there's something here that you can't quite explain, or you have 2 gods, and you are polythiestic, which is flatly contradicted by Scripture - there is one God.

This is the reasoning from the Scriptures.

I fail to see how this verse supports the Trinity. Of course God's voice is with him! And of course, when he speaks, that voice is God! When someone hears my voice, they say, "Agh, that's Joses!" At the same time, you could say that Joses' voice is with him! The voice is still me!! Doesn't prove a thing about three eternally co-equal persons in a triune Godhead.

Also, what you stated in the third paragraph, you're trying to tell me, that it's NOT ok to believe in two gods, but yes, it's ok to divide ONE God into three coequal persons?! What kind of Scriptural reasoning is that?

I love the way you stated 'simplicity'. One of these days, I will post the Athenasian Creed, the basis of the Trinity, and post what the Scripture declares so many times, and then people can vote which one is more simple.
Scripture declares, time and time again, that there is ONE God. Why complicate it?

I've got a question: Is Jesus IN the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?

Is Jesus IN the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?

 

[Episkopos]

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

 

[Axehead]

Skeptics of the Word of God often like to point out that the word “Trinity” is not found in the Scriptures; however, the Word “Godhead” most certainly is. We find the “Godhead” mentioned in Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. Colossians 2:9 states it all so well... “For in Him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Literally, the Godhead came to this earth incarnate in the man Christ Jesus. Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God. Jesus did not give up His deity when He came to the earth. According to Hebrews 5:8, Jesus humbled Himself to the Father in Heaven, even being obedient unto death (the crucifixion.

We plainly read in Matthew 28:19-20, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Here we see all three individual members of the Godhead. Again in Luke 3:22 we see all three individual members of the Godhead, “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”

Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

Colossians 2:2 refers to the Godhead as “the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ.” The Godhead is a mystery. It's ok not to understand everything.

We read in Genesis 1:26, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness...”“Us” and “Our” are plural in the Hebrew. Clearly, God has manifest (or revealed) Himself to mankind as a Godhead, i.e., one God (Deuteronomy 6:4), yet three distinct individual Persons.

We see the individuality of the Holy Spirit in Luke 12:10.
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

and in Acts 5:32

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

and in John 16:13, the Holy Spirit is referred to as HE (not some impersonal force).

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Axehead