"Christian" Doctrines That Are Not Biblical

[Alter2Ego]

The Triune God

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
You are in error. Elohim is not merely the plural form for God. Elohim can be singular or plural.

In Deuteronomy 6:4 we read “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.”

In Hebrew, this is “YHWH Elohim, YHWH echad” – echad means, at its root, to be unified. It’s first usage in the Bible is Genesis 1:4 “and there was evening, and there was morning, one day” – a day made of two parts that were unified. Echad is used of one object or person, but is also used of compound unities, such as the first day. Echad is used of the married couple “the two shall become one (echad) flesh”

“YHWH Elohim (Plural God) YHWH unified” This leads us to the doctrine called The Trinity, or Triune God.

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
Correction: What led to the doctrine called Trinity was the Roman Catholics' adoption of pagan trinities, which they then gave a "Christian" twist. There were pagan trinities in existence for centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on the earthly scene. In fact, there were pagan Trinities in existence during the 1st century AD, while Jesus was here on earth. Below are three such examples.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://ts3.mm.bing.n...eeb2d650f101145​

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts4.mm.bing.n...3f2b30d394ef638​

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co...aminshamash.jpg​

 

[mark s]

There were pagan trinities in existence for centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on the earthly scene. In fact, there were pagan Trinities in existence during the 1st century AD, while Jesus was here on earth. Below are three such examples.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

Hi A2E,

I'd strongly recommend that you read up on logical fallacies. This is yet another blatant example.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc Latin for "after this, therefore because of this" (false cause, coincidental correlation, correlation without causation) – X happened then Y happened; therefore X caused Y

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

 

[Episkopos]

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
You are in error. Elohim is not merely the plural form for God. Elohim can be singular or plural.



ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
Correction: What led to the doctrine called Trinity was the Roman Catholics' adoption of pagan trinities, which they then gave a "Christian" twist. There were pagan trinities in existence for centuries before Jesus Christ appeared on the earthly scene. In fact, there were pagan Trinities in existence during the 1st century AD, while Jesus was here on earth. Below are three such examples.

1. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

http://ts3.mm.bing.n...eeb2d650f101145​

2. In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

http://ts4.mm.bing.n...3f2b30d394ef638​

3. In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

http://www.askwhy.co...aminshamash.jpg​

The word Elohim is masculine plural ...same as water which is actually waters (mayim) and mercies (rachamim).

 

[dragonfly]

ALTER2EGO to MARK S:
Correction: What led to the doctrine called Trinity was ...

Correction: the doctrine brought by Arius, that Jesus Christ was not of the same substance as God the Father, but was inferior.

 

[Alter2Ego]

The Triune God

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

The word Elohim is masculine plural ...same as water which is actually waters (mayim) and mercies (rachamim).

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S & EPISKOPOS:
You are both in error. Elohim is applied to a singular god as well as plural gods.

"Elohim" is a Hebrew word. Hebrew does not follow the same rules for plurals as what we see in English. In Hebrew, the plural is found in the accompanying verb or adjective.

The Hebrew word "Elohim" is used interchangeably to mean "god" (singular) or "gods" (plural). If the accompanying verb or the adjective is singular, that's the clue that Elohim is referring to a singular god. If the accompanying verb or the adjective is plural, that's the clue that Elohim is with reference to more than one (plural) gods. Hebrew does not place the plural on the subject of the sentence; it places the plural on the accompanying verb or the accompanying adjective.


In all instances in the Bible when Elohim is used with reference to Jehovah/YHWH/Yahweh, THE VERB accompanying Elohim IS ALWAYS A SINGULAR VERB. The rules of grammar concerning plurals in Hebrew, specifically with reference to the word Elohim, is confirmed by the quotations below from two independent sources. Keep your eyes on the words that are bolded in red and bolded in black within the below quotations.

Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a grammatically singular or plural noun for "god" or "gods" in both modern and ancient Hebrew language. When used with singular verbs and adjectives elohim is usually singular, "god" or especially, the God. When used with plural verbs and adjectives elohim is usually plural, "gods" or "powers".

Elohim is a plural formation of eloah, the latter being an expanded form of the Northwest Semitic noun il. It is the usual word for "god" in the Hebrew Bible, referring with singular verbs both to the one God of Israel, and also in a few examples to other singular pagan deities.

With plural verbs the word is also used as a true plural with the meaning "gods".

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Elohim

In Hebrew, a numerically plural noun has three characteristics:

1. It receives a plural suffix;
2. It receives a plural verb;
3. It receives a plural adjective.

In English, most nouns have the plural suffix "s" or "es". For example, dog is the singular while dogs is the plural. Hebrew adds another dimension by matching adjectives and verbs to the noun. In Hebrew, a plural noun gets a plural verb and plural adjective. In contrast, English verbs and adjectives do not change to match the noun. For example, in English:

Singular: The big dog guarded.
Plural: The big dogs guarded.

http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm

 

[mark s]

So, alter2ego . . . are you a Jehovah's Witness?

Might you be so bold as to answer?

 

[brightmorningstar]

The Trinity God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Biblical and scriptural and a Christian doctrine, so I wonder what your motive was for putting it in quotes.
Hell is also Biblical, though the nature is open to some interpretation.

 

[mark s]

The Trinity God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is Biblical and scriptural and a Christian doctrine, so I wonder what your motive was for putting it in quotes.
Hell is also Biblical, though the nature is open to some interpretation.

The quotes are because alter2ego is here to teach us we're all wrong.

 

[Episkopos]

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S & EPISKOPOS:
You are both in error. Elohim is applied to a singular god as well as plural gods.

"Elohim" is a Hebrew word. Hebrew does not follow the same rules for plurals as what we see in English. In Hebrew, the plural is found in the accompanying verb or adjective.

The Hebrew word "Elohim" is used interchangeably to mean "god" (singular) or "gods" (plural). If the accompanying verb or the adjective is singular, that's the clue that Elohim is referring to a singular god. If the accompanying verb or the adjective is plural, that's the clue that Elohim is with reference to more than one (plural) gods. Hebrew does not place the plural on the subject of the sentence; it places the plural on the accompanying verb or the accompanying adjective.


In all instances in the Bible when Elohim is used with reference to Jehovah/YHWH/Yahweh, THE VERB accompanying Elohim IS ALWAYS A SINGULAR VERB. The rules of grammar concerning plurals in Hebrew, specifically with reference to the word Elohim, is confirmed by the quotations below from two independent sources. Keep your eyes on the words that are bolded in red and bolded in black within the below quotations.


http://www.enotes.com/topic/Elohim



http://www.israelofgod.org/elohim1.htm

You are missing it here...God is ONE not a plurality. In that oneness is the Godhead that we call the Trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Alter2Ego]

You are missing it here...God is ONE not a plurality. In that oneness is the Godhead that we call the Trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

ALTER2EGO -to- EPISKOPOS:
I haven't missed a beat. You and Mark S. were the ones insisting that the word "Elohim" denotes multiple gods; remember? Now that I've debunked your reliance on "Elohim" as Biblical evidence for Trinity, you've decided to change strategy and make out as if I'm the one who's confused.

As a reminder, below is what you and Mark S. wrote when you both insisted "Elohim" refers to plurality of gods. Keep your eyes on the words in bolded red in each of your quotations.

The Triune God

Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning, Elohim created. . .”

The basic Hebrew word for God is EL, and this is a singular form. Hebrew has two plural suffixes, for dual and plural (3 or more). Elohim is the plural form for “God”, which is a very strange way to speak of Him.

“YHWH Elohim (Plural God) YHWH unified” This leads us to the doctrine called The Trinity, or Triune God. This is what we find as we study the Bible. God identifies Himself as YHWH, but also is called the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these are separate and distinct persons, each are God, and yet we know the “LORD is One.”

The word Elohim is masculine plural ...same as water which is actually waters (mayim) and mercies (rachamim).

ALTER2EGO -to- EPISKOPOS:
By the way, you're right about one thing. God is ONE--not three gods or three persons combined into a "Godhead."

The word "Godhead" is a fabricated word that does not belong in the Judeo-Christian Bible. The last book of the Bible to be written under Divine inspiration of God was completed in 98 AD or the 1st century AD. The word GODHEDE appeared for the first time in a 14th Century English translation of the Bible—1,300 years after the fact. The translator who introduced the word GODHEDE was named John Wycleffe, a Roman Catholic. He belonged to the very same religion responsible for the Trinity dogma. By the time the King James Version was released in 1611 AD, the word GODHEDE had been changed to GODHEAD. Below are two sources that confirm this.

However, most modern translations no longer used the word "Godhead." Instead, the words deity, divine nature, and divine being are used. It is helpful to understand the history of the word and the underlying Greek words for which it is used.

The ending "-head", is not connected with the word "head". John Wycliffe introduced the term godhed into English Bible versions in two places, and, though somewhat archaic, the term survives in modern English because of its use in three places of the Tyndale New Testament (1525) and into the Authorized King James Version of the Bible (1611). In that translation, the word was used to translate three different Greek words:

http://www.timeandbe...GodheadTerm.htm

Godhead is a Middle English variant of the word godhood, and denotes the divine character of the Christian God. Godhead is also a title for God. The term was introduced by John Wycliffe (godhead, then spelled as godhede) in the King James Version Bible. The word "Godhead" occurs three times in the scriptures (Acts 17:29, Rom. 1:20, Col. 2:9).

http://www.bukisa.co...307_the-godhead

 

[mark s]

Interestingly, with a little research, I have learned that several places in the Old Testament present "elohim", used of God, with plural verbs and adjectives:

Genesis 20:13, Genesis 35:7, Deuteronomy 5:26, 1 Samuel 17:26 & 36, and 2 Samuel 7:23,

And of course Elohim refers to Himself as "we" in the creation account, "let Us make man in Our image".

Genesis 1:27 YLT
(27) And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

So, alter2ego . . . are you a Jehovah's Witness?

Might you be so bold as to answer?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Interestingly, with a little research, I have learned that several places in the Old Testament present "elohim", used of God, with plural verbs and adjectives:

Genesis 20:13, Genesis 35:7, Deuteronomy 5:26, 1 Samuel 17:26 & 36, and 2 Samuel 7:23,

And of course Elohim refers to Himself as "we" in the creation account, "let Us make man in Our image".

Genesis 1:27 YLT
(27) And God prepareth the man in His image; in the image of God He prepared him, a male and a female He prepared them.

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S.
Try as you will, it won't do you any good. Whenever the ancient Israelites used Elohim with reference to Almighty God, they used it to emphasize God's magnitude and dignity and excellence, and it was ALWAYS with reference to a singular Yahweh/YHWH/Jehovah. Every credible Hebrew language scholar will confirm this. I suggest you go speak to a Hebrew scholar in your local area, or maybe you could try a Jewish Rabbi who speaks Hebrew.

"It is characteristic of Hebrew that extension, magnitude and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the plural.... historic Hebrew is unquestionably and uniformly monotheistic." (Source: The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Volume II, page 1265)

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S.:
Did you get that? Or do you want me to break it down for you?

1. Whenever expressing magnitude and dignity, Hebrew uses plurals in place of the English expressions "very" or "extremely."

2. The ancient Hebrews (with the exception of the apostate Jews) did not believe in a 3-prong god. They were monotheistic--meaning they worshipped a singular God.

3. The ancient Israelites used Elohim to emphasize God's majesty, dignity, and excellence.

QUESTION: Since the ancient Israelites were historically monotheistic, where did this idea of a Trinity god come from?

ANSWER: From pagan religions that the Roman Catholics copied it from. Keep in mind that before the Romans (as in Roman Catholics) adopted Christianity, they were steeped in polytheism (worship of many gods).


Now, let's see what another independent source has to say on this matter. The Encyclopedia Britannica confirms that the term Elohim is used to express extreme majesty and that it's used when speaking of singular gods, including false gods that are singular, such as the Moabite god Chemosh. The word Elohim is also used for angels, kings, and judges. In other words, it is used when speaking of individuals that are in powerful positions, as follows:

"A plural of majesty, the term Elohim-though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofetim), and the Messiah-is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, "the God," and sometimes with a further identification Elohim hayyim, meaning "the living God."

Though Elohim is plural in form, it is understood in the singular sense. Thus, in Genesis the words, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth,” Elohim is monotheistic in connotation, though its grammatical structure seems polytheistic. The Israelites probably borrowed the Canaanite plural noun Elohim and made it singular in meaning in their cultic practices and theological reflections.

http://www.britannic...c/185251/Elohim


By the way, Episkopos is getting concerned that Elohim refers to a duality of gods--now that you've made such an issue of it at your Post #9 on Page 1 of this thread. He took it up with me, and I assured him that the idea of a duality of gods being linked to Elohim came directly from you and from he himself. (See his Post #23 and Post #29 on Page 1 of this thread.)

 

[mark s]

ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S.
Try as you will, it won't do you any good. Whenever the ancient Israelites used Elohim with reference to Almighty God, they used it to emphasize God's magnitude and dignity and excellence, and it was ALWAYS with reference to a singular Yahweh/YHWH/Jehovah. Every credible Hebrew language scholar will confirm this. I suggest you go speak to a Hebrew scholar in your local area, or maybe you could try a Jewish Rabbi who speaks Hebrew.


ALTER2EGO -to- MARK S.:
Did you get that? Or do you want me to break it down for you?

1. Whenever expressing magnitude and dignity, Hebrew uses plurals in place of the English expressions "very" or "extremely."

2. The ancient Hebrews (with the exception of the apostate Jews) did not believe in a 3-prong god. They were monotheistic--meaning they worshipped a singular God.

3. The ancient Israelites used Elohim to emphasize God's majesty, dignity, and excellence.

QUESTION: Since the ancient Israelites were historically monotheistic, where did this idea of a Trinity god come from?

ANSWER: From pagan religions that the Roman Catholics copied it from. Keep in mind that before the Romans (as in Roman Catholics) adopted Christianity, they were steeped in polytheism (worship of many gods).


Now, let's see what another independent source has to say on this matter. The Encyclopedia Britannica confirms that the term Elohim is used to express extreme majesty and that it's used when speaking of singular gods, including false gods that are singular, such as the Moabite god Chemosh. The word Elohim is also used for angels, kings, and judges. In other words, it is used when speaking of individuals that are in powerful positions, as follows:


http://www.britannic...c/185251/Elohim


By the way, Episkopos is getting concerned that Elohim refers to a duality of gods--now that you've made such an issue of it at your Post #9 on Page 1 of this thread. He took it up with me, and I assured him that the idea of a duality of gods being linked to Elohim came directly from you and from he himself. (See his Post #23 and Post #29 on Page 1 of this thread.)

So while you speak of the requirement that plural nouns have plural adjectives and verbs, when these are present, you reject that. This is the Ad Hoc Fallacy. You should really learn these things.

Of course the Jews who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah will emphatically state that this does not show plurality. Not to mention Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do you use the New World "translation"?

But no matter . . . we need not agree on this point (of course we won't) and even so, the Bible teaches Jesus is God.

 

[Episkopos]

ALTER2EGO -to- EPISKOPOS:
I haven't missed a beat. You and Mark S. were the ones insisting that the word "Elohim" denotes multiple gods; remember? Now that I've debunked your reliance on "Elohim" as Biblical evidence for Trinity, you've decided to change strategy and make out as if I'm the one who's confused.

As a reminder, below is what you and Mark S. wrote when you both insisted "Elohim" refers to plurality of gods. Keep your eyes on the words in bolded red in each of your quotations.





ALTER2EGO -to- EPISKOPOS:
By the way, you're right about one thing. God is ONE--not three gods or three persons combined into a "Godhead."

The word "Godhead" is a fabricated word that does not belong in the Judeo-Christian Bible. The last book of the Bible to be written under Divine inspiration of God was completed in 98 AD or the 1st century AD. The word GODHEDE appeared for the first time in a 14th Century English translation of the Bible—1,300 years after the fact. The translator who introduced the word GODHEDE was named John Wycleffe, a Roman Catholic. He belonged to the very same religion responsible for the Trinity dogma. By the time the King James Version was released in 1611 AD, the word GODHEDE had been changed to GODHEAD. Below are two sources that confirm this.


http://www.timeandbe...GodheadTerm.htm


http://www.bukisa.co...307_the-godhead

There is one God who is a plurality.

 

[Alter2Ego]

There is one God who is a plurality.

ALTER2EGO -to- EPISKOPOS:
Wait a minute, here. You just got through saying yesterday that God is not a plurality at post #29.

You are missing it here...God is ONE not a plurality. In that oneness is the Godhead that we call the Trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[dragonfly]

Are you all missing that the name Elohyim is a plural noun.

The singular is Eloah.

 

[Butch5]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Two of the most basic teachings in Christendom are as follows:

1. THE TRINITY
The teaching that God is split up into three individual persons that are combined into one "Godhead" (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit). All three of these persons are said to be CO-EQUAL (meaning they have the same power) and CO-ETERNAL (meaning they have always existed at the same time and none of them can die).


2. HELLFIRE
The teaching that God will burn a person's soul in everlasting hellfire for committing wicked deeds. In other words, God will supposedly punish people forever in fiery flames of hell--despite the fact the crimes the persons committed were only done during the persons' brief human lifespan.


QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?

4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER Jesus returned to heaven?

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?

7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames?

8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?

I'll address the issue concerning hell. I'd suggest a closer study of the subject. The confusion comes from the fact that the English translations many times translate two different Greek words as hell. One is Hades, the other is Gehenna. Hades is the abode of the dead not the lake of fire. Gehenna is the lake of fire. No one has gone there. Jesus went to Hades and preached to the dead, however, as I said this is not the lake of fire.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Skeptics of the Word of God often like to point out that the word “Trinity” is not found in the Scriptures; however, the Word “Godhead” most certainly is. We find the “Godhead” mentioned in Acts 17:29, Romans 1:20, and Colossians 2:9. Colossians 2:9 states it all so well... “For in Him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” Literally, the Godhead came to this earth incarnate in the man Christ Jesus. Jesus was 100% man, and 100% God. Jesus did not give up His deity when He came to the earth. According to Hebrews 5:8, Jesus humbled Himself to the Father in Heaven, even being obedient unto death (the crucifixion.

ALTER2EGO-to- AXEHEAD:
The word "Godhead" is a fabricated word that did not show up in the Bible until the 14th century AD--in an English translation by John Wycliffe. I addressed this issue at Post # 30 on Page 1 of this thread. You will see it at the bottom of the post where I presented two independent sources that confirm this.

We plainly read in Matthew 28:19-20, “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Here we see all three individual members of the Godhead. Again in Luke 3:22 we see all three individual members of the Godhead, “And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”

ALTER2EGO-to- AXEHEAD:
Since when did mentioning three entities at the same time equates to them being the same person in a "Godhead"? If I speak of the two Presidents Bush (George H. and George W.) and Jeb Bush under the same breath, does that mean they are combined into a single entity? Of course not.

That was Jesus Christ himself giving the instruction you quoted above from Matthew 28:19-20. He clearly showed that he was talking about separate and distinct entities that were not part of a Trinity "Godhead." Notice what he said as I break it down.

(1) "in the NAME of the Father"
(2) "and of the Son"
(3) "and of the Holy Spirit"

Now watch what follows, because I will ask you to answer a question. Remember, Jesus said "in the NAME of...," after which he identified three entities.

1. The Father's name is YHWH aka Yahweh aka Jehovah.
2. The Son's name is Jesus Christ.


QUESTION TO AXEHEAD: What is the name of the Holy Spirit?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Alter2Ego,

If you understand what it means to be 'in the name of' someone else, in the way that Jesus came in the Father's name, then you understand the Holy Spirit's role, and why scripture doesn't give Him yet another separate name.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself;
but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you.

 

[aspen]

jehovah's witness or adventist.......not much difference - Miller did a real number on 19th century heresies