Apparently he believes that Jesus is a god...not the God...as in, YHWH...as he claims in post #49:
"Christian" Doctrines That Are Not Biblical
- Thread starter Alter2Ego
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Apparently he believes that Jesus is a god...not the God...as in, YHWH...as he claims in post #49:
ALTER2EGO-to- AXEHEAD:
Are you sure you want to use Hebrews 5:8 as proof of Trinity? Look at the context (the surrounding words). It's say Jesus was obedient to God the Father. That indicates the Son is inferior to the Father. Not only that, Hebrews 5:8 is reminding us that Jesus Christ literally died. As part of the Trinity, Jesus Christ is supposed to be eternal. An eternal person cannot die.
ALTER2EGO-to- AXEHEAD:
Well, there goes your argument for Trinity out the window.
A word to the wise: Steer clear of scriptures having to do with the execution of Jesus Christ. Don't quote anything that says he died, because in so doing, you are debunking the Trinity. Why so? Because according to the definition of Trinity, all three of the "persons" are eternal. An eternal person cannot die. Jesus Christ literally died.
DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL":
"Eternal means not having a beginning or an end."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal
Christendom's trinity, written in Article I of The Catholic Faith, is defined as follows:
"There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the maker and preserver of all things both visible and indivisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of ONE substance, power, and ETERNITY; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
Axehead, did you notice according to the above Catholic definition of the Trinity, the son (Jesus Christ) is eternal? See what I mean when I tell you to not quote scriptures dealing with Jesus' death? God's inspired Word, the Judeo-Christian Bible—the same book you are quoting from—is telling you the Roman Catholics are wrong. It contradicts what the Roman Catholics dreamed up and passed down to the Protestants when they broke ranks with the Catholics. So who will you listen to: YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh, by means of his written word, the Bible? Or will you stick with traditions of men?
Lol. Thanx Rach.
It seems to be that alter2ego has some issues with me . . . . maybe my questions are too black-and-white . . .
Thread has been relocated due to the nature of orthodoxy in regards to the trinity. We must draw the line somewhere.
Thanks.
Thanks.
[sup]22[/sup] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[sup]23[/sup] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. {from one new...: Heb. from new moon to his new moon, and from sabbath to his sabbath}
[sup]24[/sup] And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
(Isa 66:22-24 KJV)
Since all men are descended from Adam it's only natural that there would be similarities in beliefs. As Tertullian said, truth must precede falsehood. You cannot have corrupted doctrine before that doctrine exists. After the peoples were separated at Babel it's natural that things would become corrupted as people began to spread out.
[quote]3. If the Trinity and hellfire are Bible teachings, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity and literal hellfire?[/quote]
Jesus did teach about Gehenna.
[sup]47[/sup] And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
[sup]48[/sup] where their worm is not dying, and the fire is not being quenched; (Mar 9:47-48 YLT)
Comparethat with the passage from Isaiah I posted above.
[quote]4. How is it that both the Trinity and hellfire teachings did not become "Christian" teachings until the Roman Catholics copied both of them from pagan/false religions--AFTER Jesus returned to heaven?[/quote]
The trinity predates that Roman Catholic church. Look up the council of Nicea.
Isaiah speaks of hellfire.
[quote]5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?[/quote]
This goes to the point I was making in my initial post. The translators incorrectly translated two Greek words by the same English word. Both Hades and Gehenna have been translated Hell. This is what confuses people. Hades and Gehenna are two different places. Hades is the abode of the dead, Gehenna is the lake of fire, Jesus went to Hades, not Gehenna.
[quote]6. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?[/quote]
See the answer to question 5
[quote]7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames?[/quote]
In Luke 16 Jesus speaks of Lazarus and the rich man. Both were alive in Hades.
[quote]8. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings?[/quote]
The words were coined to explain concepts in the Scriptures.
It’s interesting that you’ve chosen these two doctrines, given the title of the thread, Christian doctrines that aren’t Biblical. These two are fairly well established. However, you didn’t mention others that are not Biblical doctrines such as the heavenly destiny, OSAS, and Just War to name a few.
First of all, Scripture describes hell as fire in order to convey something of the intensity of suffering that it entails. Actually, it’s worse than fire. God doesn’t send people to hell; they themselves choose to go there by turning their backs on God. Hell is to spend eternity without God. Only by knowing how unspeakably good heaven is can one know how unspeakably evil its absence is. When we sin mortally, we act as God’s enemies. But when we repent, he forgives us. He spent three hours on the cross that we might spend eternity with him. But we can still reject him. If we do so, we have no one to blame but ourselves.
For the Son of God to suffer such an agonizing death should convey something of the extreme severity of offense that sin is before God’s infinite goodness. The punishment does indeed fit the crime.
Alter2Ego, you also stated something about a parallel between Catholicism and the ancient Egyptians on the Trinity. "The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known" (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood (not surprising, since the Ennead itself was an extended family) and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong. There is no parallel. From the Teachings of the Catholic Church.
For the Son of God to suffer such an agonizing death should convey something of the extreme severity of offense that sin is before God’s infinite goodness. The punishment does indeed fit the crime.
Alter2Ego, you also stated something about a parallel between Catholicism and the ancient Egyptians on the Trinity. "The Egyptians had a trinity. They worshiped Osiris, Isis, and Horus, thousands of years before the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost were known" (Robert Ingersoll, Why I Am an Agnostic). This is not true. The Egyptians had an Ennead—a pantheon of nine major gods and goddesses. Osiris, Isis, and Horus were simply three divinities in the pantheon who were closely related by marriage and blood (not surprising, since the Ennead itself was an extended family) and who figured in the same myth cycle. They did not represent the three persons of a single divine being (the Christian understanding of the Trinity). The claim of an Egyptian trinity is simply wrong. There is no parallel. From the Teachings of the Catholic Church.
Hello Alter2Ego,
I am going to respond to your post on the concept of Trinity.
Romans 1:20 states “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20.
Let's look at the things around us that can explain the concept of Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I like to first use a boiled egg as an example of what 3 in 1 can mean. After an egg is boiled we have the egg shell, the white yoke, and the yellow yoke. It is still one boiled egg.
Second, Alter2Ego has 3 sides to her person: - The physical body, the mind, and the spirit. Yet, it is still one Alter2Ego. The physical body is her presence. The mind is what she does and says. Her words represents her whether she is physically present or not. Her word is still Alter2Ego. She says things and makes them happen within her own limitation.
Finally, her spirit is open to the spiritual things including what she does and says.
God the Father is the Presence of God with us as God.
Jesus, the Son of God, is also the Word of God incarnate. He was with God from the beginning. Read John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Go further to read John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth," It is the Word of God that was spoken and became flesh to dwell among us as the Son of God who was named Jesus. In Luke 1:31, an Angel spoke the Word of God to Mary "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son and shall call His name Jesus"
The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of God reveals God to us and works in us to do spiritual things that pleases God.
Couppy.
I am going to respond to your post on the concept of Trinity.
Romans 1:20 states “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20.
Let's look at the things around us that can explain the concept of Trinity - God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. I like to first use a boiled egg as an example of what 3 in 1 can mean. After an egg is boiled we have the egg shell, the white yoke, and the yellow yoke. It is still one boiled egg.
Second, Alter2Ego has 3 sides to her person: - The physical body, the mind, and the spirit. Yet, it is still one Alter2Ego. The physical body is her presence. The mind is what she does and says. Her words represents her whether she is physically present or not. Her word is still Alter2Ego. She says things and makes them happen within her own limitation.
Finally, her spirit is open to the spiritual things including what she does and says.
God the Father is the Presence of God with us as God.
Jesus, the Son of God, is also the Word of God incarnate. He was with God from the beginning. Read John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Go further to read John 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth," It is the Word of God that was spoken and became flesh to dwell among us as the Son of God who was named Jesus. In Luke 1:31, an Angel spoke the Word of God to Mary "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son and shall call His name Jesus"
The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of God reveals God to us and works in us to do spiritual things that pleases God.
Couppy.
With regard to everlasting conscious tormenting, are we really to believe that sin is so repugnant to God, but TORTURE isn't?
I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
neophyte,
re: "God doesn’t send people to hell..."
Revelation 20:15 would seem to disagree with that statement: "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
re: "...they themselves choose to go there..."
No one who believed (was convinced) that by "turning their back on God" that they would end up being horribly tortured every moment for eternity would ever choose that option.
I just don’t understand why people want to believe that the fate of the unsaved is to spend eternity in conscious torment when there is simply no clear scripture to support that belief. I don’t understand why they try to read into scripture something that makes the loving supreme being of the Bible into a heartless monster. I simply do not understand what there is that makes them want to do that when there is no need to. Why do they want to believe that a loving supreme being will horribly torture a person for eternity because during their fleeting few years of life they didn’t satisfy certain requirements? I just don’t understand why they wouldn’t rather believe that a loving supreme being will wipe the person mercifully out of existence because for some reason they didn’t or couldn’t meet these requirements and didn’t develop or have the potential to develop the right character needed to spend eternity with this supreme being.
neophyte,
re: "God doesn’t send people to hell..."
Revelation 20:15 would seem to disagree with that statement: "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire."
re: "...they themselves choose to go there..."
No one who believed (was convinced) that by "turning their back on God" that they would end up being horribly tortured every moment for eternity would ever choose that option.
True, the Bible uses the metaphor of having the names of all the righteous written in a book (actually, the Greek word means "scroll") which is kept in heaven. In Scripture it is referred to as "the book of life,"
Everyone whose name appears in this book on the last day will be saved: "If any one’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. . . ." Nothing unclean shall enter [the New Jerusalem], nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life" (Rev. 20:15, 21:27).
People’s names are written in this book during the present life. Paul speaks of certain women who "have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life" (Phil 4:3).
The question is: Does the fact that one’s name was written in the book of life when one came to God and received initial salvation mean that one’s name will stay in the book of life until the last day, when one would receive final salvation?
The answer is: No. Scripture indicates in dozens of places that one can lose salvation, and it does so in specific connection with the book of life metaphor.
In Revelation 3:5, Jesus states: "He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels."
The implication is that if you end up giving in to sin, your name will be blotted out of the book of life and you will be denied before God and the angels, something Jesus elsewhere emphasizes (Matt. 10:33, Lk. 12:9).
As Jesus puts it, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Mt 10:22, 24:13; Mk 13:13).
Psalm 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
When Jesus talks about 'outer darkenss', is it possible He is referring to the absense of all light, both uncreated light and created light?
Is there such a thing as uncreated darkness?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
When Jesus talks about 'outer darkenss', is it possible He is referring to the absense of all light, both uncreated light and created light?
Is there such a thing as uncreated darkness?
What age is this teaching and why isn't it taught in Acts 10 or by Christ and the disciples?
Where is this taught in the bible?
Revelation shows that hell and the world of the dead give up their dead and that hell and the world of the dead thrown into
the lake of fire. Revelation 20:
[sup]13 [/sup]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
[sup]14 [/sup]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
By the above statement they have taken away and added to the book of revelation.
Who writes these beliefs?
I am a believer and I don't follow false teachings.
But they don't have a trinity like the Christian Trinity? :huh:And most of those beliefs about Messiah's etc were added
to pagan belief's after Christ had been.You need to research everything to get to the truth sometimes.
See above.
The original Roman faith worshipped a black maddonna and child. It was a pagan religion which Rome had before they hi-jacked Christianity for world dominance and power. How much history do you know?
Suffering had to be completed but because he had no sin it could not hold him. He had paid the penalty for all of man's sins.
What reason could hell hold him for?
What language are you speaking? What was the ancient language of Hebrew and even modern day versions?
How does your own language look? Take the word 'fanny' in the USA it refers to your bottom. I will not say what it is referred to in the UK. People using the same word with very different meanings. In 2,000 years time how will you know what the person writing anything was using the word to define?
What is clear from Christ is that it existed as a place where people go after death and cannot leave until the time of judgement.
God cannot die and we know that he breathed his breath into man and he became a living soul.
Being a living soul does not mean flesh cannot die but God can throw both body and soul into hell.
What is the lake of fire?
You know that they say the Trinity is assumed in the OT and suggested in the NT. But neither of those words are in the OT and the NT has to be checked by the OT. You decide.
Hello Alter2ego,
I couldn't seem to bring myself to read all the posts here and I wish that everyone had simply given their scriptural arguments and let it go at that. I believe, and this is an historical view, that the scripture is inspired by God, or God-breathed, and that as such must agree with itself. No one will be able to give you a scripture that specifically states that God is a trinity or plurality of beings. The doctrine of the trinity doesn't itself make the claim that God is a plurality of beings, on the contrary the doctrine of the trinity refers to One God who has expressed himself in three unique persons, but doesn't qualify each as separate. Jesus referred to God the Father as Spirit:
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”John 4:24
The fact that He did so, doesn't deny that He is a person and Jesus clearly spoke to Him as One.
Jesus also clearly made reference to Himself as the covenant God of Israel:
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”John 8:58
I don't know what you make of this last verse, but Jesus also clearly taught that He existed before He was born, referring to His origin as from heaven:
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.John 3:13
Jesus' statement is supported indirectly by Moses, who chose a successor and one as God's choice, to lead the tribes of Israel across the Jordan and into the lands occupied by the Canaanites. This successor was named Oshea (or Hosea) the son of Nun, but Moses called him Joshua for reasons which aren't explicitly stated, but can be understood when Joshua is recognized as a type of Jesus Christ. The name Joshua, Jesus' Hebrew name, has the meaning Jehovah our savior. The name Nun has the meaning perpetuity (everlasting), so Joshua son of Nun is the equivalent of "Jehovah our savior son of perpetuity," (or everlasting son). Jesus didn't make the claim to be the eternal Father, but did equate Himself to the Father:
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:29-31
Finally, the 3rd person of the "trinity," the Holy Spirit, was referred to by Jesus again as another helper and as the Spirit of Truth:
15 “If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:15-17
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. John 16:13-15
You can argue that the Spirit of Truth isn't the same as the Holy Spirit, but He plays the same role to Jesus as Jesus plays to the father, that is Jesus glorifies the Father, the Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus, and the Father glorifies the Son. Since God said that He wouldn't share His glory with another, you have to understand all three to be coequal as God. A fair question would be "Why does One God express Himself in three persons?" A simple answer would be that the Father is not only eternal, but infinite in His expression. As Creator, He is not only self existent, but not a part of creation. We can have a vague idea in our minds of eternity (the scripture tells us that God put this knowledge or awareness of eternity within us) and we can express infinity in mathematical terms, but as finite beings we can't truly comprehend it, nor Him. God expresses Himself in His creation through the person of His Son and the person of His Spirit. God interacts with us finite beings, by taking on the form of a servant (and in heaven the form of the ancient of days: remember that heaven is part of creation) and He interacts with us directly as His Holy Spirit (manifesting Himself to us within the context of time.) It's difficult to grasp that time is part of creation, but it is. We experience things moment by moment, making decisions as we go along. All God's decisions were made before He created us and in eternity, not in time, e.g. Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Father foreknew those whom He predestined to be conformed to His likeness.
We can look at the doctrines regarding Hell, and Jesus said more about this than anyone else in scripture, but I think we should deal with one issue at a time. I believe that the scripture clearly teaches that those who do not acknowledge the Son of God, don't know the Father either, so this should be crystallized before going any further. Without the Son, there is no Holy Spirit, and without the Spirit there can be no understanding.
I couldn't seem to bring myself to read all the posts here and I wish that everyone had simply given their scriptural arguments and let it go at that. I believe, and this is an historical view, that the scripture is inspired by God, or God-breathed, and that as such must agree with itself. No one will be able to give you a scripture that specifically states that God is a trinity or plurality of beings. The doctrine of the trinity doesn't itself make the claim that God is a plurality of beings, on the contrary the doctrine of the trinity refers to One God who has expressed himself in three unique persons, but doesn't qualify each as separate. Jesus referred to God the Father as Spirit:
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”John 4:24
The fact that He did so, doesn't deny that He is a person and Jesus clearly spoke to Him as One.
Jesus also clearly made reference to Himself as the covenant God of Israel:
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”John 8:58
I don't know what you make of this last verse, but Jesus also clearly taught that He existed before He was born, referring to His origin as from heaven:
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.John 3:13
Jesus' statement is supported indirectly by Moses, who chose a successor and one as God's choice, to lead the tribes of Israel across the Jordan and into the lands occupied by the Canaanites. This successor was named Oshea (or Hosea) the son of Nun, but Moses called him Joshua for reasons which aren't explicitly stated, but can be understood when Joshua is recognized as a type of Jesus Christ. The name Joshua, Jesus' Hebrew name, has the meaning Jehovah our savior. The name Nun has the meaning perpetuity (everlasting), so Joshua son of Nun is the equivalent of "Jehovah our savior son of perpetuity," (or everlasting son). Jesus didn't make the claim to be the eternal Father, but did equate Himself to the Father:
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” John 10:29-31
Finally, the 3rd person of the "trinity," the Holy Spirit, was referred to by Jesus again as another helper and as the Spirit of Truth:
15 “If you love Me, keep[d] My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:15-17
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. John 16:13-15
You can argue that the Spirit of Truth isn't the same as the Holy Spirit, but He plays the same role to Jesus as Jesus plays to the father, that is Jesus glorifies the Father, the Holy Spirit glorifies Jesus, and the Father glorifies the Son. Since God said that He wouldn't share His glory with another, you have to understand all three to be coequal as God. A fair question would be "Why does One God express Himself in three persons?" A simple answer would be that the Father is not only eternal, but infinite in His expression. As Creator, He is not only self existent, but not a part of creation. We can have a vague idea in our minds of eternity (the scripture tells us that God put this knowledge or awareness of eternity within us) and we can express infinity in mathematical terms, but as finite beings we can't truly comprehend it, nor Him. God expresses Himself in His creation through the person of His Son and the person of His Spirit. God interacts with us finite beings, by taking on the form of a servant (and in heaven the form of the ancient of days: remember that heaven is part of creation) and He interacts with us directly as His Holy Spirit (manifesting Himself to us within the context of time.) It's difficult to grasp that time is part of creation, but it is. We experience things moment by moment, making decisions as we go along. All God's decisions were made before He created us and in eternity, not in time, e.g. Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and the Father foreknew those whom He predestined to be conformed to His likeness.
We can look at the doctrines regarding Hell, and Jesus said more about this than anyone else in scripture, but I think we should deal with one issue at a time. I believe that the scripture clearly teaches that those who do not acknowledge the Son of God, don't know the Father either, so this should be crystallized before going any further. Without the Son, there is no Holy Spirit, and without the Spirit there can be no understanding.
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