Christianity as a Closed System

[Ronald David Bruno]

In the Bible we find: called, chosen, and faithful. Those who are with Him are all three of those things! If called, then elected by Him. If chosen, then predestined to be with Him in heaven. Yet we are saved by faith, and a faith that results in us hearing Him and doing what He asks us to do.

Faith is a gift, not by works.

Therefore it is not enough to be called and even elected to be with Him! We must also have a faith that results in faithfulness

By stating that, you are devaluing God's election, His calling and requiring works, our efforts. Faith is a gift.
Adam and Eve did not have faith, it did not exist nor was it needed in Paradise nor will it be needed in Heaven. They were given one rule. Obedience was required. Once sin came, death entered into reality. Now the promise of a Savior was given, a solution to hope for. Faith is given in order to believe the promises, of their unseen and unknowable eternal salvation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry, Mame.
I'm going to have to cite you for playing "the God card".
(an appeal to authority in an attempt to win a point/argument/debate)
Essentially misusing the Lord's name.

Your post skates awfully close to spiritual abuse. Shaming and cajoling words.
Seeking to control others with an immovable position?

I'm certainly not going to cram what is important to me down your throat.
Make your point and let it go. (like two posts ago)

Or if you prefer to continue, I can say goodbye with a single click.
No need to shake the dust off my sandals.

I will reply with your own signature....
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? -- Galatians Four : : Sixteen

I can let it go, but at least I have engaged you in conversation and you know what my truth is compared to yours....you have made your choice and apparently I have made you feel uncomfortable....even irritated. That was not intentional, but I make no apology for telling you the truth.

When Jesus and his disciples preached their message about the Kingdom they irritated people too, because Jesus and those taught by him played “the God card” as well.....was that a psychological ploy on their part? Jesus was God’s representative and he gave his message to his disciples to take out to the people.....he said he came to “cause division”, (Matt 10:34-39) and he did....he still is, as that is the whole purpose of the preaching work he sent his disciples to do.

The truth forces people to make decisions, and it is these decisions that I believe will determine our future....You are free to believe as you wish because these are your decisions to make.

Perhaps it’s me who needs to shake the dust off....?

I wish you well.....

 

[St. SteVen]

I will reply with your own signature....
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? -- Galatians Four : : Sixteen

I can let it go, but at least I have engaged you in conversation and you know what my truth is compared to yours....you have made your choice and apparently I have made you feel uncomfortable....even irritated. That was not intentional, but I make no apology for telling you the truth.

https://soundcloud.com/user-426611522%2Flifes-pretty-good-without-you

 

[Karl Peters]

Faith is a gift, not by works.

By stating that, you are devaluing God's election, His calling and requiring works, our efforts. Faith is a gift.
Adam and Eve did not have faith, it did not exist nor was it needed in Paradise nor will it be needed in Heaven. They were given one rule. Obedience was required. Once sin came, death entered into reality. Now the promise of a Savior was given, a solution to hope for. Faith is given in order to believe the promises, of their unseen and unknowable eternal salvation.

Believing in the Lord is not "Works" as foolish people think. However listening to the Lord by faith obviously results in doing what the Lords tells you, and that is works because of faith. Anyone actually hearing Him would understand this!! How can you not? We believer's do hear Him, and because He is the Lord, He gives us instructions and things to do - obviously!!

Also, decides on something, is not "Works" either!! The works come after the decision - and in this case the decision is to believe that it is the Lord who is speaking to us. That decision is yours, not an election! It is not even only you who can hear Him!! Did you not even read:

Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

See "anyone"??? How do you miss it??? Anyone means "anyone"; so anyone can actually turn to the omni-present LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS!!

And I can tell you from talking back and forth with Him, that He wants everyone who is an anyone to listen to Him - which explains why "anyone" can hear from Him, if they choose to seek Him!! And none of that has to do with "Works", except that if you do choose to listen to Him, then you will find out that the Lord is there and always has been there for you and other not so wise people like us.

Now the proof that you decided to seek the Lord, and found out that He was there because He talked to you personally, is that you now follow the instructions that come from His voice - and that means works. Indeed, if you are not hearing from Him and doing the "works" He then tells you to do, then you don't believe in Him!!

And is seem obvious to anyone actually hearing from Him, that would understand this. Yet it is also obvious that anyone hearing from the Lord (and a lord is someone who gives instructions to be accomplished) and not understanding that works are gong to follow and even be a proof that you are hearing from Him, that they don't actually know Him nor believe in Him! They are pretending obedience to Him!
Just like Isaiah wrote about:

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen To the instruction of the Lord;

So while works is not the same thing as hearing the Lord by faith- works of faith are going to happen - not that every work a person does is works of faith. Works of faith are works that are a direct result of you hearing the Lord by faith. Most works done are done by people who are just leaning on their own understanding. And the pretender does only works by leaning on their own understanding. That is to say they do the works they want to do, which are going to be works that glorify themselves as to turning people to listen to the Lord!!

That is why in my posts you will almost always see me trying to get people to listen to the Lord. The Lord specifically told me, "Karl, I want you to preach the Word, but not as it is so often preached Today. I want you to preach I AM the Word of God" - and many things like that!!

So when I talk about "faith" I talk about seeking the Lord and hearing what He has to say - which is going to be instructions since He is The Lord!"

A person thinking that knowing the Lord and hearing from Him doesn't mean that He is going to give you instructions is just pretending obedience just doesn't make sense! James made sense! We should have read:

James 2: 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Of course it can't save him!! If he had actually believed in Jesus Christ the Lord of lords, he would have sought the Lord, heard instructions from the Lord, and have made some effort to do those instructions they heard because they had the faith to hear from the Lord.

And I tell you what - those instructions are a gift!! The instructions of course are not the works, the works come after we hear the instructions - but they do happen!

 

[Karl Peters]

A couple of days ago the Lord wanted me to post on this thread. Frankly, it is an important thread and has a issue He needs to get people to understand - and that is that anyone thinking they are His elected people so as to not include others are sadly mistaken!! Indeed, it was the Pharisees and Sadducees who thought that way!! And they were the ones that did not hear His voice!! And yet He even cares for them, and wants them to actually seek Him!! If a person does indeed listen to Him, they would know this!!

They got in the exclusive little groups, but they didn't listen to Him, and this is still happening TODAY!! And it happens for one reason, and that is that they do not listen to Him!!! That did not stop them from taking on positions of leadership to glorify themselves! That did not stop them from thinking they knew what was right and what was wrong!! They made themselves the "experts"! But it did stop them from turning people to the Lord to hear what He has to say to them!!

Indeed, even every church written to in the book Revelation, had to be told "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." - so it is not just those Pharisees that had the problem, it is a problem found in all His churches!!

Are you trying to get EVERYONE to listen to the Lord our God Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit or are you trying to get people to listen to your thinking???

My thinking, from listening to Him, is that everyone needs to listen to the Lord more, including me!! That is a decission I have to make everyday called Today, and throughout the day. I don't always make that decision. I get busy. I get side tracked. I even get upset with the ways things go and decided to just go with my thinking too often. But I hear from Him every day called Today. He will come to me saying things like, "Karl, do you want to talk." So I have to make decisions to talk to Him or not. To seek Him or not. And I understand that others (everyone who is anyone) have that same decision to make.

Sadly I see that others don't make that decision on days called "Today"! I had a pastor tell me that he had only heard that small voice of the Lord three times in his life. Who can that be? Jesus is just standing there talking to him everyday called Today, and he a pastor of a church of a few hundred doesn't hear from Him everyday?? That almost seems impossible to me. Another pastor told me that he hadn't heard the small voice of the Lord for over ten years? Again, how can that be? He too had a church of a hundred or more and so is he pointing those people to the Lord? Of course not!

And what do we find hear on this site?

We find that people, even Christians, are going to churches and finding closed societies, and people thinking they don't have to do works the Lord tells them to. They are clearly delusional. That type of faith will not save them!! The faith that saves them is the faith to believe the Lord is with them everyday called Today, so that Today is the very day you need to hear from the Lord of lords and King of kings!! We can read that in the Bible, if you please:

Heb 3: 7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 “Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

Frankly, I don't want people to not enter His rest! So I want them to listen to Him Today. That is what I want for me, so I want it for them too. Yet some don't want that even for themselves, so they don't encourage others to seek Him. They tell themselves they have been elected by God and are a special people to God. We you are special to God when you decide you will listen to Him, because too many don't decide that! They don't know the Lord whose Holy Spirit says the above, so who is their father?

I write too much. I don't know why He asks me to write over and over, except that His people really do need to listen to Him!! So He keeps telling people to write. The Bible has enough, but they still don't believe in the Great I AM, who is the Word of God, or they would hear Him TODAY!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

However listening to the Lord by faith obviously results in doing what the Lords tells you, and that is works because of faith

Obedience is expected once faith is given

We believer's do hear Him, and because He is the Lord, He gives us instructions and things to do - obviously!!

We believers do

That decision is yours, not an election!

He enables us, opens our eyes and removes blondness sk tha we can see then decide.

Rev 3:20

An invitation to all.

James 2: 14

Just a matter of fact. The Holy Spirit prepares the works, grows the fruit. This is just a way to identify Christians, as in "By their fruit you will know them".

 

[St. SteVen]

My apologies. I missed this post earlier. Thanks for weighing in on this, Karl.
And for following the promptings of the Spirit.

Are you trying to get EVERYONE to listen to the Lord our God Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit or are you trying to get people to listen to your thinking???

Exactly!

We find that people, even Christians, are going to churches and finding closed societies...

Tribalism, essentially.

Easy to identify a religious cult. They are in the church across the street from your church.
And they feel the same way about you. Where does that get us?

Build bridges, not walls.