Christianity as a Closed System

[Ronald David Bruno]

In the Bible we find: called, chosen, and faithful. Those who are with Him are all three of those things! If called, then elected by Him. If chosen, then predestined to be with Him in heaven. Yet we are saved by faith, and a faith that results in us hearing Him and doing what He asks us to do.

Faith is a gift, not by works.

Therefore it is not enough to be called and even elected to be with Him! We must also have a faith that results in faithfulness

By stating that, you are devaluing God's election, His calling and requiring works, our efforts. Faith is a gift.
Adam and Eve did not have faith, it did not exist nor was it needed in Paradise nor will it be needed in Heaven. They were given one rule. Obedience was required. Once sin came, death entered into reality. Now the promise of a Savior was given, a solution to hope for. Faith is given in order to believe the promises, of their unseen and unknowable eternal salvation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sorry, Mame.
I'm going to have to cite you for playing "the God card".
(an appeal to authority in an attempt to win a point/argument/debate)
Essentially misusing the Lord's name.

Your post skates awfully close to spiritual abuse. Shaming and cajoling words.
Seeking to control others with an immovable position?

I'm certainly not going to cram what is important to me down your throat.
Make your point and let it go. (like two posts ago)

Or if you prefer to continue, I can say goodbye with a single click.
No need to shake the dust off my sandals.

I will reply with your own signature....
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? -- Galatians Four : : Sixteen

I can let it go, but at least I have engaged you in conversation and you know what my truth is compared to yours....you have made your choice and apparently I have made you feel uncomfortable....even irritated. That was not intentional, but I make no apology for telling you the truth.

When Jesus and his disciples preached their message about the Kingdom they irritated people too, because Jesus and those taught by him played “the God card” as well.....was that a psychological ploy on their part? Jesus was God’s representative and he gave his message to his disciples to take out to the people.....he said he came to “cause division”, (Matt 10:34-39) and he did....he still is, as that is the whole purpose of the preaching work he sent his disciples to do.

The truth forces people to make decisions, and it is these decisions that I believe will determine our future....You are free to believe as you wish because these are your decisions to make.

Perhaps it’s me who needs to shake the dust off....?

I wish you well.....

 

[St. SteVen]

I will reply with your own signature....
Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? -- Galatians Four : : Sixteen

I can let it go, but at least I have engaged you in conversation and you know what my truth is compared to yours....you have made your choice and apparently I have made you feel uncomfortable....even irritated. That was not intentional, but I make no apology for telling you the truth.

https://soundcloud.com/user-426611522%2Flifes-pretty-good-without-you

 

[Karl Peters]

Faith is a gift, not by works.

By stating that, you are devaluing God's election, His calling and requiring works, our efforts. Faith is a gift.
Adam and Eve did not have faith, it did not exist nor was it needed in Paradise nor will it be needed in Heaven. They were given one rule. Obedience was required. Once sin came, death entered into reality. Now the promise of a Savior was given, a solution to hope for. Faith is given in order to believe the promises, of their unseen and unknowable eternal salvation.

Believing in the Lord is not "Works" as foolish people think. However listening to the Lord by faith obviously results in doing what the Lords tells you, and that is works because of faith. Anyone actually hearing Him would understand this!! How can you not? We believer's do hear Him, and because He is the Lord, He gives us instructions and things to do - obviously!!

Also, decides on something, is not "Works" either!! The works come after the decision - and in this case the decision is to believe that it is the Lord who is speaking to us. That decision is yours, not an election! It is not even only you who can hear Him!! Did you not even read:

Rev 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

See "anyone"??? How do you miss it??? Anyone means "anyone"; so anyone can actually turn to the omni-present LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS!!

And I can tell you from talking back and forth with Him, that He wants everyone who is an anyone to listen to Him - which explains why "anyone" can hear from Him, if they choose to seek Him!! And none of that has to do with "Works", except that if you do choose to listen to Him, then you will find out that the Lord is there and always has been there for you and other not so wise people like us.

Now the proof that you decided to seek the Lord, and found out that He was there because He talked to you personally, is that you now follow the instructions that come from His voice - and that means works. Indeed, if you are not hearing from Him and doing the "works" He then tells you to do, then you don't believe in Him!!

And is seem obvious to anyone actually hearing from Him, that would understand this. Yet it is also obvious that anyone hearing from the Lord (and a lord is someone who gives instructions to be accomplished) and not understanding that works are gong to follow and even be a proof that you are hearing from Him, that they don't actually know Him nor believe in Him! They are pretending obedience to Him!
Just like Isaiah wrote about:

Is 30:9 For this is a rebellious people, false sons, Sons who refuse to listen To the instruction of the Lord;

So while works is not the same thing as hearing the Lord by faith- works of faith are going to happen - not that every work a person does is works of faith. Works of faith are works that are a direct result of you hearing the Lord by faith. Most works done are done by people who are just leaning on their own understanding. And the pretender does only works by leaning on their own understanding. That is to say they do the works they want to do, which are going to be works that glorify themselves as to turning people to listen to the Lord!!

That is why in my posts you will almost always see me trying to get people to listen to the Lord. The Lord specifically told me, "Karl, I want you to preach the Word, but not as it is so often preached Today. I want you to preach I AM the Word of God" - and many things like that!!

So when I talk about "faith" I talk about seeking the Lord and hearing what He has to say - which is going to be instructions since He is The Lord!"

A person thinking that knowing the Lord and hearing from Him doesn't mean that He is going to give you instructions is just pretending obedience just doesn't make sense! James made sense! We should have read:

James 2: 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Of course it can't save him!! If he had actually believed in Jesus Christ the Lord of lords, he would have sought the Lord, heard instructions from the Lord, and have made some effort to do those instructions they heard because they had the faith to hear from the Lord.

And I tell you what - those instructions are a gift!! The instructions of course are not the works, the works come after we hear the instructions - but they do happen!

 

[Karl Peters]

A couple of days ago the Lord wanted me to post on this thread. Frankly, it is an important thread and has a issue He needs to get people to understand - and that is that anyone thinking they are His elected people so as to not include others are sadly mistaken!! Indeed, it was the Pharisees and Sadducees who thought that way!! And they were the ones that did not hear His voice!! And yet He even cares for them, and wants them to actually seek Him!! If a person does indeed listen to Him, they would know this!!

They got in the exclusive little groups, but they didn't listen to Him, and this is still happening TODAY!! And it happens for one reason, and that is that they do not listen to Him!!! That did not stop them from taking on positions of leadership to glorify themselves! That did not stop them from thinking they knew what was right and what was wrong!! They made themselves the "experts"! But it did stop them from turning people to the Lord to hear what He has to say to them!!

Indeed, even every church written to in the book Revelation, had to be told "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." - so it is not just those Pharisees that had the problem, it is a problem found in all His churches!!

Are you trying to get EVERYONE to listen to the Lord our God Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit or are you trying to get people to listen to your thinking???

My thinking, from listening to Him, is that everyone needs to listen to the Lord more, including me!! That is a decission I have to make everyday called Today, and throughout the day. I don't always make that decision. I get busy. I get side tracked. I even get upset with the ways things go and decided to just go with my thinking too often. But I hear from Him every day called Today. He will come to me saying things like, "Karl, do you want to talk." So I have to make decisions to talk to Him or not. To seek Him or not. And I understand that others (everyone who is anyone) have that same decision to make.

Sadly I see that others don't make that decision on days called "Today"! I had a pastor tell me that he had only heard that small voice of the Lord three times in his life. Who can that be? Jesus is just standing there talking to him everyday called Today, and he a pastor of a church of a few hundred doesn't hear from Him everyday?? That almost seems impossible to me. Another pastor told me that he hadn't heard the small voice of the Lord for over ten years? Again, how can that be? He too had a church of a hundred or more and so is he pointing those people to the Lord? Of course not!

And what do we find hear on this site?

We find that people, even Christians, are going to churches and finding closed societies, and people thinking they don't have to do works the Lord tells them to. They are clearly delusional. That type of faith will not save them!! The faith that saves them is the faith to believe the Lord is with them everyday called Today, so that Today is the very day you need to hear from the Lord of lords and King of kings!! We can read that in the Bible, if you please:

Heb 3: 7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

“Today if you hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
10 “Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11 As I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”

Frankly, I don't want people to not enter His rest! So I want them to listen to Him Today. That is what I want for me, so I want it for them too. Yet some don't want that even for themselves, so they don't encourage others to seek Him. They tell themselves they have been elected by God and are a special people to God. We you are special to God when you decide you will listen to Him, because too many don't decide that! They don't know the Lord whose Holy Spirit says the above, so who is their father?

I write too much. I don't know why He asks me to write over and over, except that His people really do need to listen to Him!! So He keeps telling people to write. The Bible has enough, but they still don't believe in the Great I AM, who is the Word of God, or they would hear Him TODAY!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

However listening to the Lord by faith obviously results in doing what the Lords tells you, and that is works because of faith

Obedience is expected once faith is given

We believer's do hear Him, and because He is the Lord, He gives us instructions and things to do - obviously!!

We believers do

That decision is yours, not an election!

He enables us, opens our eyes and removes blondness sk tha we can see then decide.

Rev 3:20

An invitation to all.

James 2: 14

Just a matter of fact. The Holy Spirit prepares the works, grows the fruit. This is just a way to identify Christians, as in "By their fruit you will know them".

 

[St. SteVen]

My apologies. I missed this post earlier. Thanks for weighing in on this, Karl.
And for following the promptings of the Spirit.

Are you trying to get EVERYONE to listen to the Lord our God Jesus Christ via His Holy Spirit or are you trying to get people to listen to your thinking???

Exactly!

We find that people, even Christians, are going to churches and finding closed societies...

Tribalism, essentially.

Easy to identify a religious cult. They are in the church across the street from your church.
And they feel the same way about you. Where does that get us?

Build bridges, not walls.

 

[St. SteVen]

As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.

/

 

[Wrangler]

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

I’ve had similar experiences. Here’s the formula I observed:

1. Rudely come to my house uninvited, demanding my immediate attention. Like I’m not doing anything else at the moment.
2. Make me feel rude if I don’t invite them in.
3. Tell me if I don’t believe as they do, invoke biggest threat imaginable, ECT, eternal conscious torment.
4. Final guilt trip attempt, try to alleviate that they feel sorry for me.

Just employ this formula and they’ve done their part, like I’m just a number.

 

[Karl Peters]

As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.

Making a statement and presenting that statement as "Fact" is preposterous [contrary to reason or common sense; utterly absurd or ridiculous:]

Christianity is of course anything but a "A closed system" as shown by what Jesus Christ said:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So Jesus Christ stands at the door knocking and "ANYONE", as in everyone could open the door and invite Him in!

So what about certain churches like "Protestant evangelical? It does seem that some churches tend to be 'more to themselves' than others. The Lord has me attending a rather conservative charismatic church for now, and they seemed to be more open to others than some of the Protestant churches I have attended in the past, but it would still be unfair to just make the statement as a fact that they are a "A closed system"!!!! Indeed, the Lord has had me look up service times and I showed up and just walked in the open front door and sat down.

So, from my experience that is just a lie and false statement, even though I recognized they tend to make it more about themselves that other churches! Indeed, based upon reputation in the Christian community that I have been around, I would say the Catholic Christian church would be the closest things we have to a "Closed System", in that I have heard many Catholics take a position that you have to be Catholic to know what the Lord wants. Now I have heard where some in other Christian churches also seemed to take that position with their church. I have even heard it some a couple in my church though that is certainly and clearly not the position of the leaders in the church the Lord has me attend.

Therefore I conclude that any one person does not represent God except for Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God and God! (Jn 1:1)

So for me personally, I don't recognize the statement from 'St. SteVen' as being from the Lord, who again said that He "stands and the door knocking and if anyone opens the door..."

Which brings me to another post that raises questions:

I’ve had similar experiences. Here’s the formula I observed:

1. Rudely come to my house uninvited, demanding my immediate attention. Like I’m not doing anything else at the moment.
2. Make me feel rude if I don’t invite them in.
3. Tell me if I don’t believe as they do, invoke biggest threat imaginable, ECT, eternal conscious torment.
4. Final guilt trip attempt, try to alleviate that they feel sorry for me.

Just employ this formula and they’ve done their part, like I’m just a number.

If someone coming to your house, knocking on the door, and demanding immediate attention is someone you consider "Rude", then why would that person have opened up to Jesus Christ?

And if they indeed did open up to Jesus Christ and got to know Him and the great wisdom they got from the One who they took a moment to listen to and consider, how is it they are not saying they consider anyone doing that "rude"?

Ok - I do kind don't like when lots of salesmen and others come to my house, but also at the same time I also have to consider that God could be using one of them. So how do I need to handle it, now that I personally know Jesus Christ?

Have we not read that we are to take all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ? And He is not "rude is He" even though He is still standing there just waiting for us to open up to Him. Therefore, I believe the proper and correct thing to do is to seeking Jesus Christ and listen to Him, when someone comes knocking at my door!

And the thing is, that often I have found that He has sent them to my house so I might tell them about Him!!!!

He does that!!

I have had the opportunity to tell people about Jesus Christ so often that way! So if Jehovah Witness come to my house, and that has happened often, I ask them if they hear from Jesus Christ, but they don't! I have not yet found a single Jehovah Witness that has actually heard from Jesus Christ, which is a problem considering that His sheep hear His voice. Of course, as can often be seen on this Christian forum, they are not the only people not actually seeking Him and opening up to Him! And He is there for ANYONE!

 

[Wrangler]

If someone coming to your house, knocking on the door, and demanding immediate attention is someone you consider "Rude", then why would that person have opened up to Jesus Christ?

Rather than the Spirit, they have religion.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is an extension of a previous topic.

Theistic Agnosticism - The honesty to admit we don't know everything

This term came up this morning in a discussion over coffee. I thought it worth discussing further. Being raised in the church, I was held in a bubble of "we have all the answers." Now that I am an adult, I realize the reason for that. We DIDN'T have all the questions. I know, I know... (who...

www.christianityboard.com

As I have said often, "I was raised Protestant evangelical." --- A closed system.
Which had an odd antithetical twist. You can't DO evangelism without talking to the "lost". (those outside the closed system)
And only mature evangelicals were even allowed to do it, for fear you might be talked out of the system.

Evangelism was a "required" activity that involved talking AT the "lost", not talking WITH the "lost".
People became projects. And if the "project" seemed like a waste of time,
you could "shake the dust off your feet" and absolve yourself of any responsibility toward them.
(their blood not being on your hands)

In preparation for talking at the "lost" projects, we were armed with Christian Apologetics. (counter-arguments)
You were bound to encounter resistance to the "message" from the closed system.
The "success" of the evangelist depended on the strength of their counter-arguments.

Much more to say about this. Everyone and everything outside the closed system was held in suspicion.
Which required negative opinions about all of those things, so as to assure keeping a safe distance.

I was wondering, how many others have had similar experiences with church, or Christianity in general?

Or...

Thoughts from those who would defend Christianity, or a church, as a closed system. Seeing value in it.

Wow what a load of garbage was laid on you!

Christianity is a closed system. Nothing can be added or taken from Jesus and the Word of God!

Evangelism is a required way of being- not doing. Sharing Christ should become as natural as breathing to a follower of Jesus.

At times we do shake the dust off. Not to condemn, but when the Lord has impressed upon us, we have done what He required of us. we still love and pray for those individuals though.

It is good to know apologetics. taking points and showing from the Word where an argument is wrong. We should be well equipped to answer those who ask and to contend for the faith. I equate apologetics to a well trained mechanic. He will have these massive tool chests with loads and loads of specific tools. Apologetics is like that tool chest. We need to learn how to use many tools in sharing the Word of God with the Lost.

The success of the evangelist is dependent on God and God alone. It i snot our skills (though we should be skillful) nor our passion(though we should be passionate) nor even our prayers (though we should pray) that saves a soul, it is the Word of God!

Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

 

[St. SteVen]

Making a statement and presenting that statement as "Fact" is preposterous [contrary to reason or common sense; utterly absurd or ridiculous:]

Christianity is of course anything but a "A closed system" as shown by what Jesus Christ said:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

So Jesus Christ stands at the door knocking and "ANYONE", as in everyone could open the door and invite Him in!

You did me the favor of defining "preposterous".
I see that I need to do you a favor by defining "closed system".

closed system

noun​

1. A physical system that does not interact with or receive input from other systems,
   especially one that obeys conservation laws.

So for me personally, I don't recognize the statement from 'St. SteVen' as being from the Lord, who again said that He "stands and the door knocking and if anyone opens the door..."

What were you saying about preposterous? - LOL

/

 

[ElieG12]

"Christianity" is a very ambiguous term which can refer to many different bodies of doctrines and practices, so it can't be considered a "closed system".

 

[ElieG12]

If we consider the faith taught by Jesus and his original followers as the body that defines true Christianity, then it may be considered somewhat more "closed", although that does not prevent the group or community that reflects that true Christianity, have an improved understanding of things that they previously interpreted somewhat differently. So in any case, it would never be a system open to outsiders to give their opinion regarding internal matters, nor so closed that it cannot be reviewed by the people who internally have that responsibility.

Matt. 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 47 Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings."

The community "closed" to the public in a doctrinal sense is the house that the correct steward looks after... not any other outside group fed by someone different . No neighbor has any right or authority over one's family's needs.

 

[Karl Peters]

Rather than the Spirit, they have religion.

Who - the whole church? All the Protestants? Is that what you hear?

John wrote what the Lord asked to the angel at seven churches - and while all seven had their issues and all seven were told to let those who have an ear to hear, hear what the Spirit had to say - none were told that the Spirit was not there like you suggest!!

So is there a religious spirit/angel at Christian churches, even a spirit that does not let those with an ear hear what the Spirit of God has to say to them - Yes indeed!! But all of them had a door to Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit. Indeed, to one church, the Church of Philidelphia, whom many think didn't have an issue, they were very specifically had to be told that He had put before them a door because they had little power! And yet you wrote that anyone at your door knocking who was not invited is acting rudely?

So like it was written to all seven churches, it might also be written to all Christian churches, but Jesus Christ is standing at the door knocking for "ANYONE" as in everyone with His voice if they only invite Him in! And you don't do that if you think Him rude, do you?

 

[Karl Peters]

"Christianity" is a very ambiguous term which can refer to many different bodies of doctrines and practices, so it can't be considered a "closed system".

Well - I understand that people do have different meanings for things. As for me I see Christianity as people who desire to follow Jesus Christ by listening to His voice spoken to them. Therefore a Christian is truly someone who personally know Jesus Christ and follow His voice - as in His sheep hear His voice.

Of course I also understand that there are those pretending obedience to Him also. So I realize that for them Christianity might indeed be a "ambiguous term which can refer to many different bodies of doctrines and practices, so it can't be considered a "closed system"." - but that certainly is not my definition!

 

[ElieG12]

Well - I understand that people do have different meanings for things. As for me I see Christianity as people who desire to follow Jesus Christ by listening to His voice spoken to them.

How that could be a "closed system"?

Therefore a Christian is truly someone who personally know Jesus Christ and follow His voice - as in His sheep hear His voice.
...

Jesus' voice is not contradictory.

 

[Karl Peters]

How that could be a "closed system"?

Jesus' voice is not contradictory.

Jesus voice is not contradictory with Himself, but your thoughts are not His thoughts!

And what are you asking with "How that could be a "closed system"?

I wrote "As for me I see Christianity as people who desire to follow Jesus Christ by listening to His voice spoken to them." - so are you asking if that could be a closed system?, or how might that be a closed system? but "How that could be a "closed system", is does not really make sense.

People have a choice - either to seeking Him and listen to Him with a belief that He is there for them or not. If you have a choice, it is not a "closed system" but is open to anyone who chooses to believe - or are you having trouble understanding this?

Someone might try and say that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus Christ then heaven in closed to them, which is true, but that is like saying a door that they can easily open is closed to them. All they have to do is open up to Him and they get Him, but they choose not to open up to Him, so they have control of the door and it is them who have closed themselves in.

In that sense, it is not that the church is closing anyone out, but that people are not letting themselves in. And if we think about it, that does often seem to be the case. Jesus Christ has many Christian churches with different options, styles, methods of worship, and so on, but some will not go into any of them, and still think that they are closed!


This reminds me of a time when the Lord had me working with a Catholic girl. She said her parents required her to go to church every week. And one day I went to talk to her about Jonah and the whale, and she looked blank when I brought it up. So I was like, "you know about Jonah and the whale, right?", but she didn't. Now the Protestant church my parents took me to as a child had certainly covered that Bible story with us kids then, so how could she, whose parents took her to church every week not know about that story?

So I got to thinking that maybe she was just pretending to go to church but didn't? And I then asked her if she had gone this last week, and she told me that she couldn't because she worked that Sunday afternoon and there was not a Mass in English that morning. "Ok, fine", I thought to myself. Then the Lord, via that small voice of His told me that 'He wanted me to go and ask the Preist there why he didn't have a Mass in English Sunday morning.'

OH MY - I thought. I had never been to a Mass at a Catholic church in my life, and so I dreaded it request. Never-the-less I took off to that church to ask. The church was big, old, and beautiful. I got there and was amazed to fine the main church 'OPENED'. Indeed the front doors were propped wide open! So I walk up and in, and found that nobody was there!! That is to say that nobody but the Holy Spirit was there, because I felt His presence the instant I walk through those doors. I was impressed, because while I had often felt the presence of the Holy Spirit in powerful ways, having regularly been attending a very Spirit filled Charismatic church at the time, where miracles and people passing out when prayed for often occurred, I don't recall ever feeling His presence so much when entering an unoccupied room.

So that church was not closed, it was opened, and more than any I had seen. Of course I need to talk to someone, a priest. So I headed to the office, and not wanting to ask a priest I ask the Lord if perhaps there was another way to handle this. And in fact, when I drove in the parking lot there was a sign that said they did have a couple of time Sunday morning where they held a Mass in English. So He told me that I could just ask someone for a brochure or something that had the times, and I could give that to the girl who was lying to me. It really wasn't about her lying to me, He explained, It was her lying to Him, that was the problem! You can pretend to others but not Him!!! That was the point that He wanted made!

So, if a person says that His church is a closed system, are they telling the truth? Are they not really lying to Him? If so, they shouldn't be surprised that He has someone call them out on it - for their own good!

He did not create a closed system but and open system, yet some are not willing to open up to Him!



BTW - That story had a rather sad ending, or maybe not?

It was finally discovered that she was participating in a gang that was stealing from that place of work. Over $30,000 was said to have been taken with her help, and she wound up in handcuffs and off to jail. That might have been a closed system for her. Still, the Lord was not. He had been trying to get her attention - standing there knocking at the door hoping she would open, even sending me to reprove her in hopes she might repent of her ways. So there was still hope for her, even after she would up in a "Closed System" known as a jail. So maybe, and I hope so, the ending will be good for her. That is my hope for all people!

 

[ElieG12]

Sorry but your thinking is speculative and seems like an endless discussion with no use.