Christianity as a Closed System

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Karl Peters

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Totally wrong!!!

If means both, exclusive and closed.

‘Except for the exceptions, there are no exceptions’ is just a fancy way of saying there are exceptions.
Notice how you don't have verses nor even statement from Him, and then how His sheep hear His voice.

You have a choice - and that is the exception that prevents people from being part of Him and His Kingdom. He doesn't exclude you, you do!!

And sadly people, and those religious people who are looking for the chief seats at a church, make. They choose to pretend obedience to Him. They choice to be exclusive. They choose to try and prevent other people from knowing Him, thinking they can hear from the King of kings and Lord of lords, and that because they choose to not listen to Him for themselves. Because they choose to be exclusive and shut others from hearing the Lord, the Lord has shut them out from knowing Him. Still, they too are "anyones", so if they repent from their ways and turn to listening to Him, so that they open up to Him, He will still come into them and eat with them and them with Him. Because He is soooo forgiving that He will still cover them in His blood. That is who much God loves all of us. So don't make an exception and you won't won't be excluded. Do pretend you are the chosen one, and you will be chosen. Do think you know it all, and you will know God who knows it all.

Yet just like the Pharisees and Sadducees, there are people like that, and you find them at church, or even posting as Christians. but let me give a few things He personally told me and verses that say the same things.

I already pointed out that just a few days ago He was telling me that "He is always the Lord of lords!"

You will note that is not an exclusive statement. There is of course a rebellion taking place against Him, but that never means that He is not still God, and the Lord or all lords, and the King over all kings (not exclusive!) - thus proving even those in the rebellion wrong! So a few verses to back that up:

Rev 19:14,15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

He is 'THE LORD', and that over all the nations - excluding none - so that He rules over all - none exclusive!! Yet we see the rebellion, but the rebellion didn't mean that He doesn't rule over all 'non-exclusive', but that some are rebellious. So those being rebellious, stubborn, and who are actually fighting against God, are all still rules be Him and what comes out of His mouth. Still, they are struck down by the words that He speaks!! And they would know this if they were hearing from Him!!

1 Cor 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

And interesting thing about the above verse, is the all-inclusive aspect of it. "Jesus is Lord", whether people want to recognize it or not! The person preaching exclusiveness, is not actually preaching "Jesus Christ is Lord", but rather is saying that He is only their Lord and missing the meaning behind the verse. So they are not saying Jesus Christ is Lord, but only their Lord, thus they are saying Jesus Christ is accursed and not over all things! So they don't even know Him as their Lord, otherwise they would understand that He is over all things!! They are in fact involved in a vain thing!

Psalms 2
Why are the nations in an uproar And the peoples devising a vain thing?
The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
“Let us tear their fetters apart And cast away their cords from us!”
He who sits in the heavens laughs, The Lord scoffs at them.
Then He will speak to them in His anger And terrify them in His fury, saying,
“But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to Me, ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
‘You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”
Now therefore, O kings, show discernment; Take warning, O judges of the earth.
Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling.
Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Again - like in Revelation - we find the annointing and appointing Jesus Christ, the Son, King and Lord over all things, and that "rod of iron" in which He rules over all things!!! We find the nations and even the "very ends of the earth" are His possession (none exclusive), but we also find that some "Do homage" to the Son, but not all. It is their choice, but no matter what they choose they are not excluded from His rule!! So those claiming He is their Lord but not others, have shown they are of the rebellion!! They are only hopeful that they can not be ruled by Him, but that is a lie told them, and by them. They have tried to subject themselves to the prince of darkness, but that prince is also under the rule of the King of kings and Lord of lords, All are under His rule, non-exclusive.

Still, a day of judgement will come upon them.

He once told me, "KARL, ALWAYS REMEMBER; I AM GOD OF THE WHOLE WORLD, THE WHOLE WORLD, THE WHOLE UNIVERSE, THE WHOLE EVERYTHING, BUT ESPECIALLY THE WHOLE WORLD. ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT!

When you actually listen to Him, He gives you understanding, because Understanding is one of His names. You find out that He is not exclusive, but inclusive. He wants give everyone understanding of what is going on around them, but they prefer darkness and their own thinking over His. He gave them free-will, even the ability to deny Him, and they do it but pretend otherwise. And I am talking about "Religious leaders" who want to be God and tell you all about God instead of about God and point you to Him!

He once told me: "UNDERSTANDING IS UNDERSTANDING I AM UNDERSTANDING! UNDERSTAND?"

If we really know the Lord we point people to Him, without exception!

So I tell people to listen to Him, but do they have words from Him and provide Scriptures to back it up? NO! It is hard to find anyone posting what He tells them and that back it up. So, they don't testify about Him, but they will try and tell you all about Him, without proof of hearing Him. Writing that is not being exclusive, it is trying to get people to be included as His sheep who hear His voice. That is available to anyone, because all have sinned. All they have to do is believe in Him, which means they will seek Him and His words for them. Who doesn't want to hear what God has to say to them?
 

Karl Peters

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So what's your beef? What did the apostles do in the book titled "the Acts of the Apostles"? In God's eyes there are only two groups -- the saved and the lost. If you are saved it is your duty to PROCLAIM the Gospel to the lost. This is not "touchy feely" since the prospect of eternal damnation for rejecting the Gospel is always there. The love and grace of God must be clearly presented, the deity of Christ and His finished work of redemption must also be clearly presented. At the same time eternal torment in the Lake of Fire for those who obey not the Gospel must also be presented. The Bible says that GOD NOW COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT.
According to the Bible, when does God separate them into two groups??

You are wrong to say "In God's eyes there are only two groups" because that judgement is not made yet. We are to preach the good news, which is that "anyone" can open up to the Lord and hear from Him, but as for now we are all in one group (sinners) in need of the Lord our God Jesus Christ!

This is a big problem we find in the church and demonstrates exactly the problem pointed out in the OP. We look at the speck in the other persons eye and miss the log in our own - so we make our churches exclusive and shut out those sinners. Oh, those sinners can come and bow down to us, the saints, and then we will forgive them and start letting them be included in our works, but that just shows how blind we are. Did we not read:

Phil 3:13-15 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

Is this not what the OP was about??? That we do not have the attitude that Paul went over in the Scriptures.

"So what's the beef" - is it not that very thing Paul discussed and considering what Paul wrote " if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;" is it not obvious that God was behind the OP??
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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That seems contradictory. Maybe I misunderstand you.

In reference to the Gospel (message?) you write, "... not all hear, only His sheep and many resist and reject it."
How can they reject it if that can't heaThey hear physically, (the outer calling), but can't recognize the inner calling. Their spirit isn't quickened.
>> I am not a Calvinist!<<
You read all the verses pertaining to predestination, nut you don't really accept them. The verses seem to contradict man's "free will". But they are there and true. He predestines those He chose to be saved according to His foreknowledge. We cannot conceive of God's omniscience with our limited minds, in our reality where time moves forward. We just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. He is outside our physical time domain.
He has a perfect plan and it is fixed. The Book of Life contained all the names of the elect before time. Allowing evil in the world, which was necessary and part of the plan, many are lost. Death has to have that sting otherwise it is just an empty threat. It is serious. Satan is allotted many souls AND God is in control of it all. He can't do anything unless he has permission. There is a spiritual war going on in the unseen realm between angels and devils and not one of His chosen will be lost - go figure. Think of the beginning and ending of Creation as a play written long ago. Ce sera sera.
There is a tension between the two realms and just how things play out are mysterious to us, above our mental capacity. So it is this apparent paradox that we bump up against and take sides.
Forrest Gump got it right. Is our destiny fixed or do we make our own destiny? He said, "Both are going on at the same time." ( That was my all time favorite movie btw.)
God desires that all to come to Him, but not all do. He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?
Perhaps you believe that the atonement was ONLY for the Elect? See 1 John 2:2
That would be "limited atonement"- don't like that phrase or Calvin's TULIP at all. Jesus' blood sacrifice was infinitely powerful enough for all sins ... yet many will have to pay for their sins. So obviously, He didn't die for everyone's sins, right? Instead of "limited", I would use predestined atonement for His sheep.
 

Karl Peters

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>> I am not a Calvinist!<<
You read all the verses pertaining to predestination, nut you don't really accept them. The verses seem to contradict man's "free will". But they are there and true. He predestines those He chose to be saved according to His foreknowledge. We cannot conceive of God's omniscience with our limited minds, in our reality where time moves forward. We just don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. He is outside our physical time domain.
He has a perfect plan and it is fixed. The Book of Life contained all the names of the elect before time. Allowing evil in the world, which was necessary and part of the plan, many are lost. Death has to have that sting otherwise it is just an empty threat. It is serious. Satan is allotted many souls AND God is in control of it all. He can't do anything unless he has permission. There is a spiritual war going on in the unseen realm between angels and devils and not one of His chosen will be lost - go figure. Think of the beginning and ending of Creation as a play written long ago. Ce sera sera.
There is a tension between the two realms and just how things play out are mysterious to us, above our mental capacity. So it is this apparent paradox that we bump up against and take sides.
Forrest Gump got it right. Is our destiny fixed or do we make our own destiny? He said, "Both are going on at the same time." ( That was my all time favorite movie btw.)
God desires that all to come to Him, but not all do. He grieved when He destroyed the world with the flood, but it had to be - for our sake. Prophetic scripture states that many will be lost and hence judged and destroyed. What else can we conclude other than He did not predestine those to be saved?

That would be "limited atonement"- don't like that phrase or Calvin's TULIP at all. Jesus' blood sacrifice was infinitely powerful enough for all sins ... yet many will have to pay for their sins. So obviously, He didn't die for everyone's sins, right? Instead of "limited", I would use predestined atonement for His sheep.

People seem to have a lot of trouble with the concepts of free-will and predestination, and I don't understand why.

It is clear that I can make choices. I can seek the Lord or not seek the Lord. I can decide to listen to Him or not. I can do what He asks me to or not. I can even put more effort into doing what He asks of me or less effort into doing what He asks. I can clearly go hear or go there. Yeah - sometimes things change my mind and influences me, but the actually changing of my mind is my decision, even if strongly influenced.

So I can say the devil made me do it, but I really had a choice. That is clear to me. I may not be able to choice anything I want, but I can choose, and that is clear.

Now because I know the Lord it also becomes clear that He knows what He is doing. He too has choices, and even made choices to create and made plans even before He created. Even I can make plans, but my plans are not so well thought out as His. It is not even close. And even when I make plans, things I did see happening can mess up my plans. Still, I make some plans. But unlike my plans, the Lord knows what is going to happen, and seem never surprised and what comes. So the fact that He knows better than me, is not hard to understand. His thinking is just so far beyond my thinking that I can even comprehend what all He is capable of. That does not change that fact that I too can think, choice, and make plans. I am not a robot, but a human life form and able to do what human life forms can do, which is make choices.

I have free-will and God has free-will. He is just a whole lot smarter than me.

So the fact that He knows what His creation is going to do before He created it, has absolutely and positively no bearing on my free-will and thus my ability to make choices. Therefore - I have no problem with Him knowing what He created and my ability to make choices. Both are obviously true, and to think otherwise is just silly thinking to me.

So anyone thinking that they are an exclusive group, based upon God's knowing ahead of time what He created, is as silly as the person saying the devil made me do it. That is two sides of the same coin. That is to say that one person blames all there mistakes on the devil and the other person thinks they are special because they think they are the elect.

What's interesting to me is that in the Bible we actually find all three of those types of thinking. Romans 7 shows that sin made Paul do things he didn't want to do. And at the same time Paul then thanks Jesus Christ for Him being saved. Ok, both do appear to be true, but Paul still had choices to make and he made them. Saul chooses to go to Damascus to in prison Christian. Saul chooses to change His mind after hearing the Lord and being stuck blind. Paul chooses to go to Jerusalem even after God warns him via a prophet. Paul chooses to try and take all thoughts captive to Jesus Christ. Saul/Paul obviously had strong influences in his life, but he still had free-will. And it is not different with us. And still Paul wrote to not have the attitude that you have achieved but rather press on.

Therefore, the elitists attitude is the problem!!!

A person saved by God will want to thank God for being included in His plans for salvation, but is that person actually included if his attitude is elitists?

As for me, I know I was just an average person in a rather average life and the Lord strongly influenced me to start seeking Him - but I don't always do it for many reasons. Still, I hear Him every day call Today. Still, I know the value of me actually seeking Him. So I tell others to seek Him, and that applies to people like me, who are average people strongly influenced by God but don't always seek Him like they should. We are not special people, but we are His sheep who hear His voice.
 

St. SteVen

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The verses seem to contradict man's "free will". But they are there and true.
Here's the problem as I see it.
If anyone is predestined for salvation, then everyone else is predestined for "damnation".
Not sure how to get around that. Send help.

I see a post above that attempts to explain.
 
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St. SteVen

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He has a perfect plan and it is fixed. The Book of Life contained all the names of the elect before time. Allowing evil in the world, which was necessary and part of the plan, many are lost. Death has to have that sting otherwise it is just an empty threat. It is serious.
More contradictory statements?
If there are those predestined for "salvation" why would there need to be a death "threat" for those NOT predestined to life?
 
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St. SteVen

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People seem to have a lot of trouble with the concepts of free-will and predestination, and I don't understand why.
Read what you wrote, didn't help.
If anyone is predestined for life, the rest are predestined for death.
I have free-will and God has free-will. He is just a whole lot smarter than me.
Smart enough to consign some for life (for no apparent reason) and the rest for death (for no apparent reason).
 
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Wrangler

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Notice how you don't have verses nor even statement from Him, and then how His sheep hear His voice.
Don't need to. It is throughout Scripture. In Genesis. God chooses a special people to be his people. This is an exclusive categorization. In Exodus 20, who do the 10 Commandments apply to? Only to those who were delivered from the land of Egypt. What God's are they to put first in their life? Only that God, who rescued them from Egypt ... an only begotten son means there is no other son.

It is not that exclusivity and closed is not part of the Bible, it's that you are in denial of the concepts.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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So anyone thinking that they are an exclusive group, based upon God's knowing ahead of time what He created, is as silly as the person saying the devil made me do it.
Being in the Body of Christ is quite an exclusive group. I feel special, loved.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30
Saul chooses to go to Damascus to in prison Christian. Saul chooses to change His mind after hearing the Lord and being stuck blind. Paul chooses to go to Jerusalem even after God warns him via a prophet.
Saul was chosen. He would have never believed in Christ otherwise. His physical eyes were blinded but his heart and mind were opened. He experienced Christ in a shocking and frightful way as if a giant grabbed him by the neck slammed him up against a wall and asked him Why are you perseciting Me? He was scared to death, probably messed himself and just to make sure God had his attention, He kept him blind for three days. A free will choice on Saul's part? Lol
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5
Doesn't look like Jeremiah had much of a "free will" choice in the matter.
"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Romans 9:21

Judas was born to betray Jesus as the comingg Antichrist will do exactlybwhat he was predestined to do. But when he comes, you can go try and change his mind - bring a few tracts with ya.

The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4
As for me, I know I was just an average person in a rather average life and the Lord strongly influenced me to start seeking Him
Right, His strong influence, guidance, thoughts given to you, along with His Word, enabled you to believe. Wothout Jis assistance, His word, you couldn't have. He lifted the veil of blindness. We can't do that on our own. You can't choose a direction when you are blind.
. We are not special people, but we are His sheep who hear His voice.
Wel I am grateful He chose me for eternal life. I feel special, I am a child of God, by His blood covenant and sealed by the Holy Spirit. If that is not special, what is?
More contradictory statements?
If there are those predestined for "salvation" why would there need to be a death "threat" for those NOT predestined to life?
The warnings given such as " the wages of sin is death" are sent to all. None of us knew from the start that we were the elect. I didn't see my name in the Book of Life. So prior to becoming a Christian, oour perception is that death is our destiny (unbeknownst to us), so the urgency and seriousness of our dilemma requires our attention and therefore when the solution comes, when God draws near we are most assuredly persuaded.
 

Enoch111

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According to the Bible, when does God separate them into two groups??
Because of God and Christ's divine foreknowledge, He already knows who are in the two groups. And Christ already told us that there will be a resurrection unto life (for the saved) and a resurrection unto damnation (for the unsaved). I have already said that the Gospel must be preached to every person, but only God knows who will obey the Gospel and who will not.
 

Wrangler

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Misguided?
As in, "I got mine, to hell with everyone else." ???
What is misguided with that? Di you have locks on your doors? What is that all about?

Having said that, your characterization of my position is false. Exclusivity and closed systems remain valid. Do you recognize there is a difference between the living and the dead?
 

stunnedbygrace

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Is that true?
Seems to me that trillions have gone to the afterlife hearing nothing about Jesus, or the Gospel.
I don’t think it’s true. Otherwise why would some who are welcomed in at the second resurrection for doing a kindness to a member of His body seem to not recognize Him and say, …huh…? When did we ever see you and help you…? They appear to not recognize Him.

And meanwhile, the second group (possibly the ones who think they are the exclusivity?) say, huh?? When did we ever see you and NOT give you help??
 
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bbyrd009

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Hmm... I don't recall that one. Reference please. thanks.
I thought that was a modern idiom.
man, im sure i used to search it that way too, "when in Rome," but now i get led to Acts 22, which isnt it
ill recall a phrase eventually, but its basically Paul exhorting believers to do as the locals do, and use locals' speech, etc, in order to "win them over" i think it is...dang, still not searching lol
 

bbyrd009

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I don’t think it’s true. Otherwise why would some who are welcomed in at the second resurrection for doing a kindness to a member of His body seem to not recognize Him and say, …huh…? When did we ever see you and help you…? They appear to not recognize Him.

And meanwhile, the second group (possibly the ones who think they are the exclusivity?) say, huh?? When did we ever see you and NOT give you help??
zing, huh?
most insightful post ill read today, i bet
 
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