Speak to the value of following Jesus

[Lambano]

“Wants” and “needs” are two entirely different things, but the gap between them has become narrower with time. Compare our wants and needs only 50 years ago…..my dad passed away in 1968 and we didn’t even have color TV back then…no remote control, no internet or mobile phones. A new car was $2000!
Material wants and needs are harder to distinguish these days as young ones grow up not being able to tell the difference…..material pursuits are what the world seeks, but not Christ’s disciples.

 

[Aunty Jane]

That’s it! ….it amazes me that “prosperity ministry” folk think that material things are evidence of blessings from God…..nothing could be further from the truth. Jesus was born to poor parents and lived a very modest life.
Material things are nothing but a distraction, and often spiritual things are sacrificed in order to obtain them.

The example of the rich young ruler demonstrates the problem….
“Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come be my follower.” 22  When the young man heard this, he went away grieved, for he had many possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Truly I say to you that it will be difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”

Sobering words in today’s material world when the divide between the rich and the poor has never been greater, and the world promotes material things as a measure of success in life….it’s a lie. Many of the rich are miserable with all their possessions but no real friends and many broken relationships. They cannot buy the most important things in life….genuine friends, a loving family, and good health. Jesus had all those things.

 

[Wrangler]

For those who think prayer is just asking the genie to grant wishes

Appeal to Strawman. No one is saying this. I said AND not "just." Did you not read AND understand Matthew 6:33? From today's devotional reading, I happened upon Acts 17:25
he has no needs. He himself gives life and breath to everything, and he satisfies every need.

Notice it does not say just spiritual needs? Every need includes the needs under discussion, material needs.

In yesterday's devotional reading I came upon this verse, which is a manifestation of the Spirit of God living within us. Hebrews 13:16
But don't forget to help others and to share your possessions with them. This too is like offering a sacrifice that pleases God.

Again, the command to materially help. Why would this please God if it goes against his Spirit? It's nonsensical to suppose he wants us to materially help while he, being all powerful, refuses. What kind of principle is that? What kind of love is that?

 

[Runningman]

I think there is something about riches that God doesn't like. It's probably less about the riches themself and more about what they can do to people. When I say riches, I am talking about gold and money, that sort of thing. I believe God defines riches in a different way, but tells us not to worry, too.

 

[Runningman]

Typically evangelizing the "lost" focuses on why Christianity is true.
A convincing argument is hoped to win the day and produce a new convert.
Assuming all the concerns of the prospect can be dissuaded.

However, I was thinking this morning about the day-to-day benefits.
The positive effects of absorbing biblical teaching, as it relates to life.

- When we encounter an angry person. (a soft answer turns away wrath)
- In our interactions with others. (look to the interests of others)
- When lining up with others. (put the other person first)
- If someone else gets the promotion we had hoped for.
(humble yourself; you will be exalted in due time)

What other practical benefits can you think of?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When those outside the church hear us speaking about Christianity,
what negative images come to their mind?

[

I work in a job where these Biblical teachings roughly translate to crowd control and psychology. I would add that, in addition to what you said, we should also be useful. Think along the lines of going the extra mile if you're asked, being a "good Samaritan," and things like that.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The AND means he is willing, able and does materially change circumstances in addition to an internal transformation.

Can we examine the scripture in Matt 6 and see what this “AND” is all about?

Matt 6:19-21….
“Stop storing up for yourselves treasures on the earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal. 20  Rather, store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21  For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also”. . . . .

Material, earthly possessions are not to be our goal…but rather “storing up treasures in heaven”…how do we do that? By using our time and what resources we have to benefit others, rather than serving ourselves.

24 ”No one can slave for two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot slave for God and for Riches.”

Slaving for what we do not “need”, but rather what we “want” (nice house, car, lifestyle) takes time away from doing what Jesus told us to do. We are slaving for the wrong “riches”. A modest home, car and clothing are what Christians are to seek. Whatever they have they are to share with those who don’t.

Paul put it this way…
”For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have. 13 For I do not want to make it easy for others, but difficult for you; 14 but that by means of an equalizing, your surplus at the present time might offset their need, so that their surplus might also offset your deficiency, that there may be an equalizing. 15 Just as it is written: “The person with much did not have too much, and the person with little did not have too little.” (2 Cor 8:12-15
Do we get the point?

So what was discussed before the verse you quoted in Matt 6:33…?
Note what Jesus said is a “need”..…
25 “On this account I say to you: Stop being anxious about your lives as to what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your bodies as to what you will wear. Does not life mean more than food and the body than clothing?“

What then is the difference between a need and a want? The world of today has an altered meaning to what Jesus taught.…it’s not even close.

“26  Observe intently the birds of heaven; they do not sow seed or reap or gather into storehouses, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth more than they are? 27  Who of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his life span? 28  Also, why are you anxious about clothing? Take a lesson from the lilies of the field, how they grow; they do not toil, nor do they spin; 29  but I tell you that not even Solʹo·mon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. 30  Now if this is how God clothes the vegetation of the field that is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much rather clothe you, you with little faith? 31  So never be anxious and say, ‘What are we to eat?’ or, ‘What are we to drink?’ or, ‘What are we to wear?’ 32  For all these are the things the nations are eagerly pursuing. Your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things.”

There it is…..what we eat, drink and wear….these are our needs. If we put God first in our lives, THEN we will have our “needs” satisfied…..there are no “wants“ in his statement. What is it that “the nations are eagerly pursuing”? What are they parading before others to create envy?…..their expensive food served in up market restaurants, fancy designer clothing and shoes, expensive drinks delivered at the hands of underpaid servants.
This is why Jesus said…..
33 “Keep on, then, seeking first the Kingdom AND his righteousness, and all these other things will be added to you. 34  So never be anxious about the next day, for the next day will have its own anxieties. Each day has enough of its own troubles.”

Context is as important as the statement….taken out of context, we can make the Bible say whatever we want it to….there is another important AND in that statement…We have to seek God’s righteousness in all that we do. So to what extent does God add to our needs? What are our expectations in that regard?
Can we ever use Jesus‘ statements to justify a lifestyle that he would not endorse? How much is “too much” and how little is “too little”?

Appeal to Strawman. No one is saying this. I said AND not "just." Did you not read AND understand Matthew 6:33?

I am thinking that you did not really read the context of Matt 6:33. But as with past encounters with you, I know that you will continue to justify your position, no matter what anyone says….so I reply FWIW.

 

[Wrangler]

Can we examine the scripture in Matt 6 and see what this “AND” is all about?

We already did. And it didn’t take 12 paragraphs of exposition. LOL.

 

[Aunty Jane]

We already did. And it didn’t take 12 paragraphs of exposition. LOL.

The paragraph fetish…what is with that?

 

[quietthinker]

Speak to the value of following Jesus​

God is vindicated. All the false charges brought for millennia are nullified. The dragon has been defeated though his tail still thrashes. The inhabitants of unnumbered Worlds and angelic beings rejoice and we in our frail frames and little faith on our besieged planet join them in thanksgiving as our hope becomes brighter and brighter till that day dawns.

 

[Wrangler]

The paragraph fetish…what is with that?

LOL Brevity is the soul of wit.

 

[Jack]

Typically evangelizing the "lost" focuses on why Christianity is true.
A convincing argument is hoped to win the day and produce a new convert.
Assuming all the concerns of the prospect can be dissuaded.

However, I was thinking this morning about the day-to-day benefits.
The positive effects of absorbing biblical teaching, as it relates to life.

- When we encounter an angry person. (a soft answer turns away wrath)
- In our interactions with others. (look to the interests of others)
- When lining up with others. (put the other person first)
- If someone else gets the promotion we had hoped for.
(humble yourself; you will be exalted in due time)

What other practical benefits can you think of?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When those outside the church hear us speaking about Christianity,
what negative images come to their mind?

[

Delivering me from the everlasting Hell Fire that Jesus warned us about several times.

 

[Aunty Jane]

LOL Brevity is the soul of wit.

Brevity with regard to Bible passages is the stuff of error. Unless what you quote is in context….you lose the argument….but that is not the point, is it? We are not here to win arguments but to shown how we arrived at our conclusions. If the journey towards our conclusion fails to take into consideration the condition of the road we are travelling, then we may find ourselves on a completely different path to what we thought we were on….is it an easy path leading to a self-seeking conclusion, or did Jesus tell us that it is a difficult road, narrow and cramped because there are rules to follow so that we do not fall off the sheer cliffs on either side of this difficult road? And trying to bring baggage with us…makes the journey even more difficult.

 

[St. SteVen]

Typically evangelizing the "lost" focuses on why Christianity is true.
A convincing argument is hoped to win the day and produce a new convert.
Assuming all the concerns of the prospect can be dissuaded.

However, I was thinking about the day-to-day benefits.
The positive effects of absorbing biblical teaching, as it relates to life.

- When we encounter an angry person. (a soft answer turns away wrath)
- In our interactions with others. (look to the interests of others)
- When lining up with others. (put the other person first)
- If someone else gets the promotion we had hoped for.
(humble yourself; you will be exalted in due time)

What other practical benefits can you think of?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

When those outside the church hear us speaking about Christianity,
what negative images come to their mind?

[

 

[XtraPercept]

A convincing argument is hoped to win the day and produce a new convert.

This is the failure, a mans attempt to convert another to his own destructive course. There is no 'convincing' the spirit by the skills of the flesh. The debate is in search of satisfaction that will never truly come for its foundation of falsehood. Carried in the hands of Truth, there is no further contention, and the expression becomes its own reward. This is why the sheep stand apart and no wolf can hide his teeth for long.

 

[St. SteVen]

This is the failure, a mans attempt to convert another to his own destructive course. There is no 'convincing' the spirit by the skills of the flesh. The debate is in search of satisfaction that will never truly come for its foundation of falsehood. Carried in the hands of Truth, there is no further contention, and the expression becomes its own reward. This is why the sheep stand apart and no wolf can hide his teeth for long.

Do you mean to say that there is no benefit in this life to following Jesus? I hope not.

[

 

[XtraPercept]

Do you mean to say that there is no benefit in this life to following Jesus? I hope not.

Oh goodness St. SteVen, I am so glad you request clarification! That is not at all the meaning of these words.

Quite the contrary! I would contend His presence in our lives is the ONLY value we ought to seek.

For your inquiry it is my delight to expand the Masters message.

The failure, the mistake, the fault of pride in men. Men who convince their converts pull their proselyte down. It is only a servant of the Master who wins the hearts of men by way of conveying His love through His servants.

A debater debates to win. Their satisfaction is vainglory. Their pursuit is entirely of their own content, which is death. If their pursuit was true, it would be founded on and thus full of Life and Love and Joy and Hope and Mercy and Grace and Power and all the wonderful things that Jesus Christ is named!

In His hands, we do not contend, we only express! It is the Masters work in which we are pleased to participate as He permits us to do. Because we follow Him because He works through us, we will always stand apart from every wolf.

 

[Lambano]

What other practical benefits can you think of?

Purpose and meaning in life.

 

[Brakelite]

Yes, I just did call that rampant over-spiritualization of Christianity. (It's odd that you fairly regularly ask a question I just answered ).

Our future resurrection IS a change in our circumstance. Changing our circumstances is what God's business is all about. And not just in the far away future but the here and now. However, he does this for his glory, not ours.

The Bible is filled with stories of evidence based faith. People's circumstances were miraculously changed and then more people believed. For some reason you think Jesus cured the sick, fed the hungry, gave sight to the blind as a distraction from his ministry. What you preach in this exchange directly contracts Jesus at Matthew 6:33
But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, AND all these things will be given to you as well.

Notice the AND? Yes, an internal transformation is a priority and prerequisite but does not limit or prevent God's material blessings to the faithful. Give us our daily bread is a material blessing that changes our circumstances. Jesus is not merely the son of God who took away the sins of the world by his sacrificial death. After that he was restored to life AND given all authority in heaven and Earth, honored to sit on the right hand of God. This is the way.

Those who are overly spiritualized stop before the AND, stop at seek first the kingdom. There is an AND to Christianity, to our great and wonderful God.

I agree with both you and Steven on this. Yes, God does change our circumstances, sometimes with life saving consequences. But God does so only of there is no alternative. The priority for God is not to ensure we live comfortable contented lives. The priority for God is that we be saved and live with Him for eternity. That is only possible if we are changed.
I have experienced life changing and life saving providential circumstantial changes. And I often use these in testifying to God's goodness, care, attention, and love. But the greater miracle is the power by which He has changed me, and the one for which I am more grateful.

 

[Lambano]

“For whosoever would save his life will lose it: but whosoever would lose his life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 16:25.

When I see posts like #8 and #51, I have to wonder if the author realizes that he's only following Jesus in an attempt to save his own life?

But how can I judge him for it? I've done it too.

 

[St. SteVen]

“For whosoever would save his life will lose it: but whosoever would lose his life for my sake will find it.” Matthew 16:25.

When I see posts like #8 and #51, I have to wonder if the author realizes that he's only trying to save his own life?

But how can I judge him for it? I've done it too.

I think this is why the hell doctrine goes hand-in-glove with the idea that God only loves His Elect.
That those outside the church deserve the hell they have "earned". (not my fault; not my problem)

But wait, wasn't I just like them once? A poor wayfaring stranger whom God sought out?
Why would I devalue them one bit?

[