Only those that obey Acts 2:38 are under Grace....the rest are under the Law.
Christians and Jews are both anti Acts 2:38.
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Pythagorean12
Active Member
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
You just said Peter(man) made Acts 2:38 up.
You just said a made up lie. Of course. Such as you plainly do so, rather than deal with Scriptural teaching of water baptism, which you care nothing for, but only your law.
This also means your sins are yet to be remitted.
This also means you are fallen from grace.
You live by a law, that is no law of Christ, and judge others thereby: whether it be outward circumcision or water baptism.
All false accusers first have to make up rule of law to hang salvation upon, and then separate themselves from the body of Christ as by a greater salvation, and finally falsely accuse the brethren, who will not be proselytized to obey their rule.
This also means you are become as them that no longer have the Spirit:
These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
And now, the only reason whatsoever you pretend fellowship in the Scriptures with believers of Jesus, is to bring in your private rule of salvation and remission of sins: A proselytizer to dominate the faith of others by, not being a brother to help them in their joy (2 Cor 1:24):
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you.
This forum is a feast of charity in the Scriptures for the honest and sincere of heart, but it is only a place proselytizing opportunity for them seeking the unlearned to prey upon, and so to spoil and rob them of their liberty in Christ:
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
All you have is your false commandment of men, and what you have therefore is left desolate to you.
I would no more be baptized into your world of corrupt water, to join your little personal group of super-baptisms, on pains of death to do so, than I would bow down to any beast, that makes warfare with the saints to overcome them with a great law to be saved by, and yet is blasphemy to the grace and truth of God's Word:
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies...And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, to overcome them...
The tabernacle of David being built again by Jesus is not saved by the water of this world, nor by the hands of men in any water baptism: it is the tabernacle that the Lord alone pitches by the Spirit.
Baptism by law of 2:38 is dismal baptismal indeed, made of men, not of God.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Neither do they love their laws unto the death.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
Neither are there Christian sinners.
There are however those that fall from grace by living a law, and a lie.
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
The issue of Christian 'sinners' is one thing.
This thread is about accusing Christians of sins by a made up law of man.
Same as they did with Jesus, by their tradition added to the law of Moses.
We become false accusers of the brethren, when we speak great law with authority of the dragon, not authority of Christ, to judge all others thereby.
To focus on Acts 2:38 exclusively of the passage around it:
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brothers, what shall we do?' And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.' And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, 'Save yourselves from this crooked generation.' So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls."
There were obviously more than 3000 people there. In verse 14, we see that Peter is speaking to the "(m)en of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem," which, in that day, was what was done -- address the heads of households specifically, but at least portions of their households were there with them. Peter was actually addressing far more than 3000 people. Not all who heard Peter's words actually received his word and thus were baptized; I would say the number who did receive his word and were then baptized was actually a minority of those present.
What seems to be happening here is that some are reading Acts 2:38 at least somewhat to the exclusion of Acts 2:39. Peter is issuing the general call of Scripture to all who were present, but only a few actually responded positively. And the ones who did respond positively did so because they were called by the Lord our God to Himself... their hearts were changed by the Holy Spirit. This is how salvation works:
Outward baptism (and even repentance of sin) is a sign and seal of the promises of God. It's a sacrament given to us by God, which is to say it is, along with communion, a confirming sign of God's truth. God gave us the sacraments to strengthen our faith, further our sanctification, and assure us of the Lord's unwavering faithfulness to us ~ His forgetful and often unfaithful people. We should think of them as object lessons. The point is that our public repentance of our sin and baptism are the results of the new heart given by God and the inward baptism by fire and the Holy Spirit, which is what is really effectual in our salvation, which is of the Lord. Our public repentance and baptism by water, are works of man and surely not the cause of our salvation.
Grace and peace to all.
"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, 'Brothers, what shall we do?' And Peter said to them, 'Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.' And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, 'Save yourselves from this crooked generation.' So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls."
There were obviously more than 3000 people there. In verse 14, we see that Peter is speaking to the "(m)en of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem," which, in that day, was what was done -- address the heads of households specifically, but at least portions of their households were there with them. Peter was actually addressing far more than 3000 people. Not all who heard Peter's words actually received his word and thus were baptized; I would say the number who did receive his word and were then baptized was actually a minority of those present.
What seems to be happening here is that some are reading Acts 2:38 at least somewhat to the exclusion of Acts 2:39. Peter is issuing the general call of Scripture to all who were present, but only a few actually responded positively. And the ones who did respond positively did so because they were called by the Lord our God to Himself... their hearts were changed by the Holy Spirit. This is how salvation works:
"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be My people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses."
[Ezekiel 36:26-29]
"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."
[Joel 2:32]
"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
[John 3:7-8]
"... it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
[Romans 9:16-18]
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
[Ephesians 2:4-9]
"... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
[Philippians 2:12-13]
[Ezekiel 36:26-29]
"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls."
[Joel 2:32]
"Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
[John 3:7-8]
"... it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills."
[Romans 9:16-18]
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."
[Ephesians 2:4-9]
"... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God Who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure."
[Philippians 2:12-13]
Outward baptism (and even repentance of sin) is a sign and seal of the promises of God. It's a sacrament given to us by God, which is to say it is, along with communion, a confirming sign of God's truth. God gave us the sacraments to strengthen our faith, further our sanctification, and assure us of the Lord's unwavering faithfulness to us ~ His forgetful and often unfaithful people. We should think of them as object lessons. The point is that our public repentance of our sin and baptism are the results of the new heart given by God and the inward baptism by fire and the Holy Spirit, which is what is really effectual in our salvation, which is of the Lord. Our public repentance and baptism by water, are works of man and surely not the cause of our salvation.
Grace and peace to all.
Last edited:
robert derrick
Well-Known Member
You are correct, that Scripture refers to Christians as saints, not sinners.
You appear to believe that is because Christians cannot be judged as sinners in grace, though they continue in sin?
You make difference between willfully sinning and stumbling?
To me, grace is the means by which God is allowed to not immediately judge and punish anyone that sins, but is allowed by grace due to the blood of Jesus, to give space for confession and repentance.
God is able by the law of Christ to convict with His Spirit of sins, rather than immediately punish for it:
I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. (Rev 2)
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Would you like to see the verses in the NT that tell us that Law is still in effect today(for sinners)?
They can if they sin by trying to keep the Law which is still in effect for sinners ....Gal 5:4.
This makes them sinners by default.
Pythagorean12
Active Member
Pythagorean12
Active Member
You answer my question with a question.
Why would anyone think they're under the law of God when they don't follow God?
You don't know to whom God's law applies.
The Law applies to sin.
Sin is defined by the law.
Sinners sin, therefore all sinners are to be judged by the law.
Only saints are free from the Law if they walk in the Spirit....
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin....
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Absolutely. Once they are regenerate of the heart (born again of the Spirit), they are kept in God's power to the end:
In him you also, when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."
[Ephesians 1:13-14]
"Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, (t)o all the saints in Christ Jesus... He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:1-6]
[Ephesians 1:13-14]
"Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, (t)o all the saints in Christ Jesus... He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:1-6]
"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever."
[Jude 24-25]
[Jude 24-25]
The ones who do fall from grace were never members of God's Elect:
"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
[1 John 2:18-19]
[1 John 2:18-19]
We all still sin, Christian or not, and thus we are still sinners.
We Christians still have the sinful nature ~ what Paul calls the "old man" ~ with us, but we now have a new nature also, that of the Spirit ~ Paul calls this the "new man." Paul even acknowledges and laments this dichotomy in himself and even calls himself the chief of sinners:"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."
[Romans 7:18-19]
[Romans 7:18-19]
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."
[1 Timothy 1:15]
[1 Timothy 1:15]
This is why the writer of Hebrews exhorts us to "...lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" [12:1-2]. As Christians, we are redeemed sinners in this life, but yet still sinners ~ no better than anyone else ~ but loved by God in a particular way and predestined to be conformed to Christ:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth."
[Ephesians 1:3-10]
[Ephesians 1:3-10]
By the way, this is what it means for us to be saints; not that we are now, like, "extra-special-good" or anything, but that we are sinners who have been redeemed by the Lord.
Grace and peace to you both.
Pythagorean12
Active Member
1 John 3:9Absolutely. Once they are regenerate of the heart (born again of the Spirit), they are kept in God's power to the end:
In him you also, when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."
[Ephesians 1:13-14]
"Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, (t)o all the saints in Christ Jesus... He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:1-6]
"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever."
[Jude 24-25]
The ones who do fall from grace were never members of God's Elect:
"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
[1 John 2:18-19]
We all still sin, Christian or not, and thus we are still sinners.
"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."
[Romans 7:18-19]
"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."
[1 Timothy 1:15]
This is why the writer of Hebrews exhorts us to "...lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" [12:1-2]. As Christians, we are redeemed sinners in this life, but yet still sinners ~ no better than anyone else ~ but loved by God in a particular way and predestined to be conformed to Christ:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth."
[Ephesians 1:3-10]
By the way, this is what it means for us to be saints; not that we are now, like, "extra-special-good" or anything, but that we are sinners who have been redeemed by the Lord.
Grace and peace to you both.
Great post. I'll disagree we are still sinners though.
We are saints, not sinners. To believe we remain sinners is you claim we undo the power of the blood of Christ.
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.”
Pythagorean12
Active Member
And I will say this, that there is quite a bit that you're both correct on... I think for the most part you're just kind of missing each other. The Law applies to us all, but being under the old Law is a different thing altogether and something that we as Christians, as Truther pointed out, are not. It applies to us in that it acts as a mirror, showing us our need for a Savior, Who fulfilled it and then paid the wages of our sin for us. As Paul puts it:
Grace and peace!
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death."
[Romans 8:1-2]
[Romans 8:1-2]
Grace and peace!
Salvation by faith alone is of the Spirit. Any action taken by the flesh is a works. If some will take the time to study the scripture beyond Acts they will with the help of the Holy Spirit understand that getting wet does not save you. A born-again person demotes the desires of the flesh and is now led by the Spirit. The Spirit-filled Christian produces fruit. Anything and I repeat Anything YOU decide to do in the flesh to earn your salvation is false doctrine. God's plan for man changed throughout the ages, why some understand those changes before the cross but put the brakes on at Acts 2:38 is puzzling to me. Can you not read Pauls's epistles? The Gospels, tell us that John came to baptize in water but Jesus came to baptize in the Holy Spirit. You can do a lot of things after you accept God's free gift of grace and have faith, even the hokie pokie but it doesn't count for salvation. Works are evidence of your salvation not a requirement for salvation. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for our sins is sufficient. God doesn't need you to perform some traditional ritual to complete your salvation. I see some boast, I was baptized in a cold river, I was baptized by so and so, I was baptized in the Jordan River, Epeshians 2:9 Not of Works, should any man boast. Stand on the pulpit if you wish sticking out your chest proudly boasting that YOU were baptized, YOU completed your salvation, YOU are righteous.
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