Christians and Jews are both anti Acts 2:38.

[PinSeeker]

Great post. I'll disagree we are still sinners though. We are saints, not sinners.

Thanks for the compliment! But let me ask you, if we are not sinners, then why do we still sin?

To believe we remain sinners is you claim we undo the power of the blood of Christ.

Oh, not at all. My quote of Paul above from Romans 8:1-2 applies here, too.

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not.”

I think we can look at what Paul says in Romans 7 here, too. We are like Paul, which is what he's saying, here:

"Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
[Romans 7:17-24]​

And then in the same breath, Paul acknowledges and gives thanks for and rejoices in the power of the blood of Christ for us all:

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
[Romans 7:25]​

Grace and peace to you!

 

[PinSeeker]

Salvation by faith alone is of the Spirit.

Much agreed.

Any action taken by the flesh is a works.

Right, including faith itself, which is the gift of God, and not something man conjures up in himself and offers to God in contribution to his salvation.

God's plan for man changed throughout the ages..."

TEXBOW, I agree with much (probably most) of what you say here and elsewhere, but this particular thing I do not. God's plan for man has always been the same, from Genesis 3 and the Fall on (because before that point man was not in need of redemption). And even since that point, all men have been saved the same way: by faith through Christ Jesus, as Hebrews 13 makes this crystal clear. The only difference is that the Israelites of old looked forward to Christ and the coming Savior and His sacrifice for our sin, whereas everyone since Christ looks back on the same (and forward to His return).

Stand on the pulpit if you wish sticking out your chest proudly boasting that YOU were baptized, YOU completed your salvation, YOU are righteous.

Yeah, I don't think anyone here is doing that.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[TEXBOW]

Thanks for the compliment! But let me ask you, if we are not sinners, then why do we still sin?


Oh, not at all. My quote of Paul above from Romans 8:1-2 applies here, too.


I think we can look at what Paul says in Romans 7 here, too. We are like Paul, which is what he's saying, here:

"Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
[Romans 7:17-24]​

And then in the same breath, Paul acknowledges and gives thanks for and rejoices in the power of the blood of Christ for us all:

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
[Romans 7:25]​

Grace and peace to you!

A person led by his flesh is a sinner by definition, sins without spiritual conviction, and has no desire to stop. A person led by the Spirit still sins but is convicted, seeks forgiveness, and desires to avoid sin. A person led by the flesh is a sinner by nature, a person led by the Spirit is not a sinner by nature.

 

[TEXBOW]

Much agreed.


Right, including faith itself, which is the gift of God, and not something man conjures up in himself and offers to God in contribution to his salvation.



TEXBOW, I agree with much (probably most) of what you say here and elsewhere, but this particular thing I do not. God's plan for man has always been the same, from Genesis 3 and the Fall on (because before that point man was not in need of redemption). And even since that point, all men have been saved the same way: by faith through Christ Jesus, as Hebrews 13 makes this crystal clear. The only difference is that the Israelites of old looked forward to Christ and the coming Savior and His sacrifice for our sin, whereas everyone since Christ looks back on the same (and forward to His return).



Yeah, I don't think anyone here is doing that.

Grace and peace to you.

I agree that Faith has been God's plan all along but I'm referring to the administration of man throughout the ages. The obvious is there was no cross before Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection. The mosaic law with its various rituals. Today most understand we no longer sacrifice a goat or ox to cover our sins, most understand we have moved past the law but for some reason put the brakes on at Acts 2. Jesus didn't give Abraham righteousness because he had faith and was baptized. He was accounted righteousness due to his faith alone.

 

[PinSeeker]

A person led by the flesh is a sinner by nature

Absolutely.

a person led by the Spirit is not a sinner by nature.

Well, no. We still have our original sinful nature (this is the "old man" that Paul exhorts us to put off), but now we have a new nature of the Spirit because of our having been born again of the Spirit (this is the "new" that Paul exhorts us to put on):

"Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ! ~ assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
[Ephesians 4:17-24]

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful."
[Colossians 3:5-15]​

Paul says not that we no longer have the sinful nature at all, but that we are no longer enslaved by it (which fits with all the rest of Scripture):

"Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?"
[Galatians 4:8-9]​

In short, we are being conformed to Christ, but as of now, we are not yet. This includes or nature. One great day ~ when we are completely conformed to Christ ~ it will no longer be so.

Grace and peace to you, TEXBOW.

 

[TEXBOW]

Absolutely.


Well, no. We still have our original sinful nature (this is the "old man" that Paul exhorts us to put off), but now we have a new nature of the Spirit (because of our having been born again of the Spirit (this is the "new" that Paul exhorts us to put on):

"Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ! ~ assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
[Ephesians 4:17-24]

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful."
[Colossians 3:5-15]​

Paul says not that we no longer have the sinful nature at all, but that we are no longer enslaved by it (which fits with all the rest of Scripture):

"Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?"
[Galatians 4:8-9]​

Grace and peace to you, TEXBOW.

Putting off the old man is a daily chore. Peace to you my Brother in Christ.

 

[robert derrick]

Salvation by faith alone is of the Spirit. Any action taken by the flesh is a works. If some will take the time to study the scripture beyond Acts they will with the help of the Holy Spirit understand that getting wet does not save you. A born-again person demotes the desires of the flesh and is now led by the Spirit. The Spirit-filled Christian produces fruit. Anything and I repeat Anything YOU decide to do in the flesh to earn your salvation is false doctrine. God's plan for man changed throughout the ages, why some understand those changes before the cross but put the brakes on at Acts 2:38 is puzzling to me. Can you not read Pauls's epistles? The Gospels, tell us that John came to baptize in water but Jesus came to baptize in the Holy Spirit. You can do a lot of things after you accept God's free gift of grace and have faith, even the hokie pokie but it doesn't count for salvation. Works are evidence of your salvation not a requirement for salvation. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for our sins is sufficient. God doesn't need you to perform some traditional ritual to complete your salvation. I see some boast, I was baptized in a cold river, I was baptized by so and so, I was baptized in the Jordan River, Epeshians 2:9 Not of Works, should any man boast. Stand on the pulpit if you wish sticking out your chest proudly boasting that YOU were baptized, YOU completed your salvation, YOU are righteous.

They have taken 2:38 as a formula and recipe for being forgiven of sins, which comes by confession only.

And all other Scripture, including receiving he Spirit is plainly by the hearing of faith, and the house of Cornelius is an exempt of being baptized by the Holy Ghost with speaking of tongues, even as the apostles were, was before water baptism.

The argument they then try to make, is that receiving the Spirit is only the beginning of salvation and forgiveness, which concludes with water baptism.

Which of course is a foolish resort contrary to all that is Christ and salvation by grace in the NT Scriptures.

is puzzling to me...

When someone gets it in their head a really special doctrine, though it is not Scriptural, they will cling to it feverishly against all sense and judgment.

Stand on the pulpit if you wish sticking out your chest proudly boasting that YOU were baptized, YOU completed your salvation, YOU are righteous.

And this is the crux of the matter. All division in the body of Christ comes by made-up doctrine and rule and law, that Scripture never says plainly. And the worst of them say salvation is dependent upon it, so that they then judge all others as guilty before God.

Some did so with circumcision, and now some do so with water baptism. They are of the same spirit of error.

 

[robert derrick]

Absolutely.


Well, no. We still have our original sinful nature (this is the "old man" that Paul exhorts us to put off), but now we have a new nature of the Spirit because of our having been born again of the Spirit (this is the "new" that Paul exhorts us to put on):

"Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ! ~ assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."
[Ephesians 4:17-24]

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. On account of these the wrath of God is coming. In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful."
[Colossians 3:5-15]​

Paul says not that we no longer have the sinful nature at all, but that we are no longer enslaved by it (which fits with all the rest of Scripture):

"Formerly, when you did not know God, you were enslaved to those that by nature are not gods. But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?"
[Galatians 4:8-9]​

In short, we are being conformed to Christ, but as of now, we are not yet. This includes or nature. One great day ~ when we are completely conformed to Christ ~ it will no longer be so.

Grace and peace to you, TEXBOW.

Well, no. We still have our original sinful nature (this is the "old man" that Paul exhorts us to put off), but now we have a new nature of the Spirit because of our having been born again of the Spirit (this is the "new" that Paul exhorts us to put on).

Scripture doesn't teach one person and soul having a dual nature.

The old man is dead and crucified in Christ. He was the inner man of a corrupted heart. Our new man is the inner man with the new divine nature whole and complete.

We are souls in bodies on earth. Our soul is not double-natured in Christ. No man's soul is of a dual nature of both sinful and divine.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.

In Christ, the soul is all in the Light, not only in part. There is no part Light of God and part darkness of the world in one soul.

We can be double-minded, but not double-natured.

It is the current sinful flesh, that we continue to walk in, which we are not to give ourselves to anymore. In Christ we reign over the flesh, because we are no longer of the flesh, but of the Spirit.

We are not a two-natured person walking around on earth. We don't struggle with a sinful nature within. We struggle with the sins of the flesh without. Every soul is of one nature, whether of sin to sinfulness of the worls or of God to His righteousness.

Our old man was crucified in Christ by grace through faith. Our old body is what we then must crucify daily. (1 Cor 15)

The old man has been put off, and we are therefore to put off his old conversation from us. (Eph 4)

Christians can be double-minded when drawn away by the lust of the flesh, contrary to their nature within. That is why we are judged more guilty than unredeemed sinners of the world: like the transgression of Adam, it was done with knowledge purposely contrary to his nature he was born with by the breath of God. That is why they were more guilty, who delivered their own Redeemer into the hands of sinners.

Adam was made a living soul, and so are we in Christ. The soul is either dead in separation from God by the sinful nature in it, or the soul is alive to God by the divine nature in it.

There are no dead and living souls on earth. In Christ we are not dead in part, and alive in part.

God cleans the inside of our cup first, and then we must clean the outside. There is no cup that is both clean and unclean inside.

We do not have a new divine piece of cloth sewn to our old sinful nature, neither is the new wine of Christ put into old bottles.

Paul says not that we no longer have the sinful nature at all, but that we are no longer enslaved by it (which fits with all the rest of Scripture)

Yes Scripture does. It's called being thoroughly washed and sanctified in the Spirit, with the axe taken thoroughly to the old root.

We were wild by nature, but now holy by nature (Rom 11), and so we are to be holy as God is holy, by His divine nature in us. Our root is now holy, and so we are now a holy branch.

Being partakers of the divine nature is not to partake of part of it, while yet keeping part of the old sinful nature.

There is no part sinful, part divine natures in any person, even as there is no communion with Christ and Belial.

We are not washed inwardly in part:

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Such were some of us who sinned by nature. Now, if we sin (not when we sin) (1 John 2:1), it is with knowledge and contrary to our nature.

There is no argument that Christians can still sin, and many do, and we are in need of forgiveness of sins, but those sins are contrary to the divine nature.

We don't have any excuse of a sinful nature to blame our sins upon, as with the world. We are not behaving holily in one part, because of the holy nature, and behaving sinfully in another part, because of the sinful nature. That is confusion and not Scripture at all.

Them who know the Lord Jesus no more have any excuse for sin. (Rom 1:20-21)

And them who have known the Lord, that return to the old life of sin, giving themselves to the flesh of the body once again, can crucify their new inner man, to receive again the sinful nature of the old man: to resurrected our old man unto ourselves once again, while we crucify Christ afresh openly and without shame in us. (Heb 6)

At that time it is impossible to renew repentance again unto salvation. God has given up on us, even as He did with others.

That is the warning we have from Scripture, not to mock God in the name of grace: them that never knew the grace of God cannot possibly fall from it. Them that never clean escaped the pollutions of the world through lust, can 'return' to it.

Only them once cleaned can become filthy once again:

When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. (Matth 12:43-5)

And so, we have ability to sin. It is not impossible for a Christian to sin, and we may even do so, but we have no sinful nature to blame it on.

Christians are the only ones on earth with ability of free will to serve God or sin. Those with the sinful nature have no such freedom of will to choose whom they will serve: they will serve sin in one degree or another.

Only when we believe Jesus unto salvation of the soul, can we of our own free will serve Him and His righteousness.

The divine nature has free will with God, not the sinful. That is what Adam gave up by transgression.

 

[PinSeeker]

Scripture doesn't teach one person and soul having a dual nature.

Jesus Himself, when He walked the earth as a man, was fully God and fully man. We Christians are being made like Jesus ~ being conformed to Him ~ and one day will be fully like Him. Scripture is filled with like concepts of ongoing construction:

1. the household of God is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, and Christ Jesus is the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in Whom we are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit

2. the kingdom of God is here now (as Jesus Himself said) but will not be here in its fullness until Christ returns

3. God is making His Israel full, but it will not be full until the fullness of the Gentiles is brought in and then the partial hardening on Israel removed​

The old man is dead and crucified in Christ. He was the inner man of a corrupted heart. Our new man is the inner man with the new divine nature whole and complete.

We can live as though the old man us fully dead ~ because we know it is a certainty that will one day be true, and because we have been given new life in Christ. Paul exhorts us to do so, as I said. This is what Christ Jesus Himself exhorted us to in telling us to take up our cross ~ daily ~ and follow Him. No, for now, the old man is still with us, at least to an extent. I asked this before, but let me ask you (possibly again; I can't remember if I was addressing you or not in a previous post), if the old man is fully dead and we only have the divine nature whole and complete as you say, then how do you explain the fact that we still sin? That we still, as Paul says of himself, do what we know we should not do and do not do what we know we should do (at least from time to time)? Why would you say that is?

God cleans the inside of our cup first, and then we must clean the outside.

And do you think you can do that in and of yourself? It's certainly possible to avoid doing this sin or that sin, but do you think it's possible to make yourself sinless in this life?

It's called being thoroughly washed and sanctified in the Spirit, with the axe taken thoroughly to the old root.

Our sanctification is a lifelong process, beginning at the point we are converted, rather than a once-and-for-all event. Our justification is once-and-for-all, whereas because of God's mercy and compassion and our being reborn of the Spirit, we are justified ~ deemed just in God's eyes, because of the righteousness of Christ. This takes us to Romans 8, where Paul says of God, "... those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called he also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. Our predestination, our being called by God, our being justified, and our being glorified are all one-time events. There is a reason sanctification is not mentioned there. It is not because our sanctification is not just as certain, because it is, but sanctification, in contrast with all the other "tions" mentioned here, is not a one-time event. Our sanctification is a process... God's work in us, which as I said, having begun this good work in us He will bring to completion at the day of Christ. Our justification is the beginning of our sanctification, and our glorification ~ when we are finally made just like Jesus ~ will occur at the end of the process of sanctification. We are are being made holy, and this is the Spirit's ongoing work in us in this life.

And so, we have ability to sin. It is not impossible for a Christian to sin, and we may even do so, but we have no sinful nature to blame it on.

It's impossible for us, in this life, to completely avoid sin, or to even approach sinlessness. Yes, there are only a small number of passages that explicitly use the term 'sinner' in reference to Christians, but those passages do exist and cannot be ignored. The New Testament clearly teaches that Christians continue to fall into sin, so yes, we remain 'sinners' in that sense.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Putting off the old man is a daily chore. Peace to you my Brother in Christ.

It most certainly is! But thanks be to the Father and the Son for the Holy Spirit, our daily Helper, with Whom we know that it is a certainty, eventual as it may be.

Thank you, TEXBOW. Grace and peace to you also, Brother.

 

[Pythagorean12]

Thanks for the compliment! But let me ask you, if we are not sinners, then why do we still sin?

I would recommend a Bible verse search to find all passages that inform those who are in Christ do not wilfully sin.

Oh, not at all. My quote of Paul above from Romans 8:1-2 applies here, too.

Sin is not imputed. Where there is no law, there is no sin.
The Romans verse demonstrates Christians do not sin.

I think we can look at what Paul says in Romans 7 here, too. We are like Paul, which is what he's saying, here:

"Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
[Romans 7:17-24]​

​

Personally, I find that passage to be Paul's personal acknowledgement of his war with his own demons.
I find the last part of that verse is curious in that Paul was suppose to already be saved from that body of death.

then in the same breath, Paul acknowledges and gives thanks for and rejoices in the power of the blood of Christ for us all:

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!"
[Romans 7:25]​

Grace and peace to you!

And to you. That part of the chapter is seemingly not conducive to Paul's prior observation referred to a moment ago.

 

[Truther]

Absolutely. Once they are regenerate of the heart (born again of the Spirit), they are kept in God's power to the end:

In him you also, when you heard the Word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, Who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."
[Ephesians 1:13-14]

"Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, (t)o all the saints in Christ Jesus... He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."
[Philippians 1:1-6]​

"Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever."
[Jude 24-25]​

The ones who do fall from grace were never members of God's Elect:

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."
[1 John 2:18-19]​

We all still sin, Christian or not, and thus we are still sinners. We Christians still have the sinful nature ~ what Paul calls the "old man" ~ with us, but we now have a new nature also, that of the Spirit ~ Paul calls this the "new man." Paul even acknowledges and laments this dichotomy in himself and even calls himself the chief of sinners:

"For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing."
[Romans 7:18-19]​

"Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost."
[1 Timothy 1:15]​

This is why the writer of Hebrews exhorts us to "...lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God" [12:1-2]. As Christians, we are redeemed sinners in this life, but yet still sinners ~ no better than anyone else ~ but loved by God in a particular way and predestined to be conformed to Christ:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which He lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of His will, according to His purpose, which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in heaven and things on earth."
[Ephesians 1:3-10]​

By the way, this is what it means for us to be saints; not that we are now, like, "extra-special-good" or anything, but that we are sinners who have been redeemed by the Lord.

Grace and peace to you both.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

We have the ability to fall from Grace.

 

[Truther]

Salvation by faith alone is of the Spirit. Any action taken by the flesh is a works. If some will take the time to study the scripture beyond Acts they will with the help of the Holy Spirit understand that getting wet does not save you. A born-again person demotes the desires of the flesh and is now led by the Spirit. The Spirit-filled Christian produces fruit. Anything and I repeat Anything YOU decide to do in the flesh to earn your salvation is false doctrine. God's plan for man changed throughout the ages, why some understand those changes before the cross but put the brakes on at Acts 2:38 is puzzling to me. Can you not read Pauls's epistles? The Gospels, tell us that John came to baptize in water but Jesus came to baptize in the Holy Spirit. You can do a lot of things after you accept God's free gift of grace and have faith, even the hokie pokie but it doesn't count for salvation. Works are evidence of your salvation not a requirement for salvation. Jesus's sacrifice on the cross for our sins is sufficient. God doesn't need you to perform some traditional ritual to complete your salvation. I see some boast, I was baptized in a cold river, I was baptized by so and so, I was baptized in the Jordan River, Epeshians 2:9 Not of Works, should any man boast. Stand on the pulpit if you wish sticking out your chest proudly boasting that YOU were baptized, YOU completed your salvation, YOU are righteous.

Is obeying Acts 2:38 a work of the flesh or Grace?

 

[TEXBOW]

Is obeying Acts 2:38 a work of the flesh or Grace?

Any action on your part outside of Faith (a gift of God's grace) for your salvation is a works regardless of what scripture you wish to point to. Evidence of your salvation produces works. When you get to Acts 2:38 keep reading.

 

[Truther]

Any action on your part outside of Faith (a gift of God's grace) for your salvation is a works regardless of what scripture you wish to point to. Evidence of your salvation produces works. When you get to Acts 2:38 keep reading.

So, baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins is a carnal work, disqualifying one from salvation(remission of sins)?

What is the alternative to Acts 2:38?

Is repentance also a carnal work?

Should Peter have told them not to repent or be baptized but only promise them the Holy Ghost?

Did you know that "confessing Jesus as Lord" is also a physical act(work)?

Texbow, you obviously are confusing Spirit led works with Law based works.

You don't even know what Paul was talking about.

 

[robert derrick]

Jesus Himself, when He walked the earth as a man, was fully God and fully man. We Christians are being made like Jesus ~ being conformed to Him ~ and one day will be fully like Him. Scripture is filled with like concepts of ongoing construction:

Jesus Himself, when He walked the earth as a man, was fully God and fully man.

You're unscriptural statement, that religious commentators like to quote, has it's own error built in.

He could not have been 'fully man', because man was fully sinful, when He came into the world.

The soul is not the body, and the body is not the soul: the 'two natures' are of two different things, one nature is of the soul and one nature is of the body.

The soul is one nature, celestial, and the body is one nature, terrestrial. (1 Cor 15)

We are not our bodies. We are our souls in bodies.

Jesus was fully God, fully in a body of flesh:

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God.

He was the Word made flesh, made of a woman: A body was prepared for the God of Israel from the flesh of a woman by the operation of the Spirit, even as Even was made of the flesh of a man. (1 Cor 11:8)

In that He was made a little lower than angels, it was that He was begotten of God into a man's body on earth, not that we was made 'fully man'. He remained fully the God of Israel, yet now in a body made of a woman, after the Spirit

Eve was not the mother of Jesus, neither was He her Son, because Jesus was not the body, but rather the Lord in a body. Eve was not the mother of God, which would have been the case, if the Son had been fully man, not just made of the seed of David according to the flesh, but born of a woman by the seed of man

So it was with the first Adam: The body was made of the dust of the earth, but a living soul was born in that body by the breath of God, and so Scripture calls Adam the son of God. (Luke 3:38)

Man is the soul, not the body. The body returns to the dust, from whence it came, but the soul is God's to judgment.

Adam was made a living soul by the breath of God, not by the body. Jesus was made a quickening Spirit by God in a body prepared for Him, not by the body prepared.

The first Adam was the first living soul in a body made of the dust, and the Second Adam was the Lord Himself in a body made of flesh.

He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh, but not made full man, because he was not born of the seed of sinful man, but only His body was made of that seed according to the flesh: the flesh of Mary, who was of the line of David.

Sinful man is a corrupted soul with a sinful nature. Jesus, therefore, was not 'fully man'. He was fully in a body of man.

With the transgression of Adam, the soul which had been of divine nature, became fully sinful in nature. Adam was not part divine and part sinful in nature after His transgression. If so, then all souls born into the world of the seed of Adam, would be partly divine and sinful, partly celestial and partly terrestrial. So, that claiming to have two-natures in one soul is nothing new, nor special to God.

In that we are changed on this earth, our soul is changed from sinful in nature to divine in nature: our soul becomes a new creature in Christ Jesus:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.

If our souls remain partly sinful in Christ, then all things have not become new and of God, which is contrary to Scripture.

With the transgression of Adam, the soul became sinful, and the body became mortal.

With the reconciliation to God by the Second Adam, the soul becomes divine once again, as in the beginning before transgression, which is no more imputed to that soul, which yet inhabits a mortal body: a son of God born again of the Spirit. A living soul in a sinful body.

That is the truth of the two natures, which Christians have, but not are: We have the divine nature of our soul, and the sinful nature of our body. The unbeliever still has one nature: sinful soul and sinful body, having not the Spirit of God in their souls, with Christ formed in them to become fully and completely new living creatures: A living soul become a son of God on earth in mortal body. (John 1:12)

Neither the Son of God coming in the flesh had two-natures in His soul, one sinful, the other divine, and so neither do the sons of God now made after His likeness and in His image: The old man of sin is the old sinful soul completely dead and buried in the likeness of his resurrection.

That redeemed soul is now of a spiritual nature, the divine nature, and sits in heavenly places, while yet living in a natural body of sinful nature, that is not yet redeemed. The soul is spiritual and divine, being born of the Spirit, and the body is natural and sinful, still made of sinful flesh.

With the resurrection and redemption of the purchased possession, both the soul and the body will be spiritual, divine, and celestial with the Lord forever, even as He is now, and then shall come to pass, that the whole body of Christ yet on earth, and in the earth, shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.

Not partly divine and partly sinful soul will ever inhabit a wholly spiritually resurrected body.

We are not bodies with souls. We are souls with bodies. And the only people on earth having two different natures are the people of God: the divine nature of the soul walking in the flesh of sinful.

Jesus was made to walk in the likeness of sinful flesh, so that them who believe on Him could become sons of God, born in the likeness of Christ, yet made still to walk in sinful flesh: Christians.

The Second Adam, Jesus Christ, had one nature on earth, even as the first Adam: the divine soul of God, and the uncorrupted flesh of a body, prepared for Him of a woman by the Spirit. Yet without transgression.

Every soul born of Adam thereafter had one nature by transgression: a sinful soul, and a corrupted body of flesh.

The unbelievers on earth continue as such seed of Adam. But believers in Jesus now continue as the Second Adam, howbeit in sinful flesh: two different natures. One for soul, one for body.

At the resurrection, they all shall be of one nature, soul and body, even as the risen God of Israel in the likeness of His resurrection.

If they do not transgress after the similitude of Adam's, which is to neither confess nor repent.

 

[robert derrick]

Is not water baptism by obedience to the commandment. It is.

If water baptism saves, then salvation is by obedience: a salvation by works of obedience, that is not salvation but falling from grace by the works of the law: These are they who go to law for salvation, not by grace but by works of obedience, whether it be water baptism or loving our neighbors:

Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another.

 

[robert derrick]

Circumcision was a sign of the righteousness of God by faith, and was commanded to the faithful people of God, to be seen by man in their flesh. They were justified to be called the people of promise by the children of Abraham, counted for the seed.

Water baptism is likewise a figure of the righteousness of Christ by faith, and is commanded to the faithful people of God in Christ Jesus, to be seen by man in their bodies. They are justified to be called the people of promise by Christians, which are the children of Abraham and counted for the seed: which is Christ.

Providing for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men.

Water baptism is providing an honest confession, in answer to a good conscience toward God, in the sight of men. It is the answer of salvation on earth, even as loving our neighbors as ourselves: it is the natural answer of obedience to the commandments of God, by the divine nature bestowed upon the new creature in Christ.

Both circumcision and baptism are a sign and a figure of the birth and the commandment that has gone before: they are the seal of confirmation in the sight of men (Rom 4:11): we are saved by faith, not by works, even as we walk by faith, not by sight.

Those who trust in works of obedience for salvation, are them who believe in salvation by sight, not by faith:

Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Like them of the circumcision, so are these of the water baptism: they prey upon the weak, that they might make proselytes of others to themselves, to the exclusion of all others of faith.

They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

Those who obey their law for salvation affects them mightily by pride of service to their law, in the seeing of them water baptized even as they: they are greatly pleased by it, not Christ.

Neither circumcision nor baptism makes the child born, but seals that child as people of God, in the eyes of them beholding their circumcised flesh and baptized body.

The inner man of faith is not buried in water baptism, but the outer body of flesh, as a sign of the old man being dead and crucified in Christ, and likewise in a figure of that same body of sinful flesh, rising from the water to a new and living way, so has the new man risen with Christ.

Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[robert derrick]

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

If this occurs only in water baptism, then as the body is being planted together under the water, so must that body resurrect in His likeness.

If the body seen going under the water, were indeed the old man of the soul being planted together in the likeness of His death, then that body rising from the water, must also be that in the likeness of His resurrection.

The body of the man of the soul planted in the likeness of his death must become the body of the new man of the soul rising in the likeness of His resurrection: water baptism saving the soul, must also resurrected the body, and so the resurrection has past by water baptism (2 Tim 2:18).

Herein is how the faith of some is overthrown by bodily works of law for salvation of souls: They who said the resurrection is past, did so, because they believed that water baptism saved: the old body went under unsaved, and the new body resurrects as saved.

Water baptism that saves by law does not produce a born again child of God by grace, but rather produces a boastful beast, rising from the waters in the sight of men, whose head of salvation is that of blasphemy of works, not of Christ by grace. (Rev 13:1)

They are obedient to the false head of a boastful salvation.

Any person can be saved during water baptism, but water baptism saves no man, even as the water of this world washes no man clean of the filth of the flesh (1 Peter 3:21), but only by the washing of the water of the Word.

The water of baptism with hands of men is not made 'sacred' for purposes of salvation. That is the mysticism of the carnal mind practicing a false religion.

Those who command water baptism necessary for salvation and baptism of the Holy Ghost, which is with fire, are as they commanding fire down from heaven in the sight of men:

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men.

Grace by the faith saves, not grace by obedience to the faith, lest salvation be of obedient works.

Without remission of sins, there is no salvation of the soul, and so if remission of sins were by obedience to the commandments of the Lord, then we are saving our souls, and our salvation is by our own works of obedience to boast of, as the man said:

Stand on the pulpit if you wish sticking out your chest proudly boasting that YOU were baptized, YOU completed your salvation, YOU are righteous.

Obedience to the commandments of the Lord by faith is abiding in His righteousness, not being made righteous by our works of obedience.

 

[PinSeeker]

I would recommend a Bible verse search to find all passages that inform those who are in Christ do not willfully sin.

I think we're just sort of missing each other, Pythagorean12... not really talking about the same thing. I'm not talking merely about willful sinning. If you want to talk about willfully sinning ~ as in stating that what God has declared and designated as evil/sin as not sin or evil but good (and then acting on it as such) ~ then yes, in the words of the writer of Hebrews, if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, then yes, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries" (10:26).

But I have been and am now talking about sinning in general. As Christians, we know it's wrong, and if we can possibly avoid sin, that's surely our desire as Christians. So we do not willingly sin, as above, but alas, we still sin -- not willfully, but we still sin -- and thus we are sinners. This is the human condition. Now, as Christians, we are redeemed sinners, but alas, in this life, we are still sinners. As John says, "(if) we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." We are still yet sinners. James writes his letter/epistle to Christians, as he addresses us as brothers over and over and over again, right? Almost 20 times, actually. Well, he also addresses us as sinners. James 4:8 is an example, and he even alludes to the dual nature we are now, after having been saved, in possession of:

"Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."​

Sin is not imputed.

Well, agreed, at least sort of... We inherited the natural, sinful nature from Adam and Eve, which they acquired when they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree in Genesis 3. So this sinful nature is inherited by all, and this unrighteousness is imputed. We are unrighteous because of Adam's act in Genesis 3. Our outward sin is the result.

Where there is no law, there is no sin. The Romans verse demonstrates Christians do not sin.

Not so. What he's talking about there is that sin was in the world before the Mosaic law was instituted, but it was not technically reckoned as sin before the time of the law. But even so, Paul does not mean that people were guiltless without the law before God instituted His law through Moses (much less any time since Christ for Christians, which isn't even what he's talking about there). And Paul has already said in Romans 2:12 that those without the written law are still judged by God. As for us today, there is a law; Paul himself, in Romans 8:2, says, "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. So there is law for Christians, and Christians transgress that law, and thus there is sin.

​

Personally, I find that passage to be Paul's personal acknowledgement of his war with his own demons.

Okay, fine. I agree. We have the same "demons." That's what Paul is telling us. Surely you don't think Paul would have written that as a part of his personal letter to the Christians in Rome (and by extension to us) if it didn't have any relevance to them (and by extension to us).

I find the last part of that verse is curious in that Paul was suppose to already be saved from that body of death. That part of the chapter is seemingly not conducive to Paul's prior observation referred to a moment ago.

This is the now and the not yet of the Gospel. We are saved, and we are being saved. We can get into that if you want...

Grace and peace to you.