Christians are not under the New Covenant

[Enoch111]

Thee are the only provisions of the New Covenant!

So why did you fail to post Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15 which clearly tells us that Jesus is PRESENTLY the Mediator of the New Covenant? Which means that it has been in force since His death, burial, and resurrection.

HEBREW 8: CHRIST IS THE PRESENT MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT
6 But now [PRESENT TENSE] hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [Note: this is being applied during the Church Age]
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made [PAST TENSE] the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away...
9: 15 And for this cause he is the Mediator of the New Testament [COVENANT], that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Sure but that has nothing to do with teh Neww covenant

Yes it most definitely does!

Long before the death and resurrection of Christ, God's plan all along was to require those tribal leaders of Israel and Judah to be at those historical major feast days to verify that the Messiah had indeed come and that the promises in the prophecy of Jeremiah's New Covenant had been fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. It was also the fulfillment of Ezekiel's "2 sticks" prophecy of the house of Israel and the House of Judah being united together....in Christ.

God had them there at Peter's gospel of salvation sermon and were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After the feasts was over, they returned to their home towns and it was through that "dispersion" that the "great commission" began to be spread.

 

[keithr]

regarding Heb 8:8 what is meant by the house of Israel and the house of Judah?
Is it the tribes of Israel or something else?

I believe it is referring to all the tribes of Israel.

When Solomon died, between 926 and 922 BCE, the ten northern tribes refused to submit to his son, Rehoboam and revolted. From this point on, there were two kingdoms of Hebrews: in the north - Israel (ten tribes plus some Levites), and in the south - Judah (plus Benjamin and some Levites). The Israelites formed their capital in the city of Samaria, and the Judaeans kept their capital in Jerusalem. These kingdoms remained separate states for over two hundred years.

The splitting of Israel was God's punishment for them having forsaken Him:

1 Kings 11:30-32 (WEB):
(30) Ahijah laid hold of the new garment that was on him [Jeroboam], and tore it in twelve pieces.
(31) He said to Jeroboam, “Take ten pieces; for Yahweh, the God of Israel, says, ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to you
(32) (but he shall have one tribe, for my servant David’s sake and for Jerusalem’s sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel);
(33) because that they have forsaken me, and have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon. They have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in my eyes, and to keep my statutes and my ordinances, as David his father did.

 

[Mungo]

I believe it is referring to all the tribes of Israel.

When Solomon died, between 926 and 922 BCE, the ten northern tribes refused to submit to his son, Rehoboam and revolted. From this point on, there were two kingdoms of Hebrews: in the north - Israel (ten tribes plus some Levites), and in the south - Judah (plus Benjamin and some Levites). The Israelites formed their capital in the city of Samaria, and the Judaeans kept their capital in Jerusalem. These kingdoms remained separate states for over two hundred years.

The splitting of Israel was God's punishment for them having forsaken Him:

1 Kings 11:30-32 (WEB):
(30) Ahijah laid hold of the new garment that was on him [Jeroboam], and tore it in twelve pieces.
(31) He said to Jeroboam, “Take ten pieces; for Yahweh, the God of Israel, says, ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to you
(32) (but he shall have one tribe, for my servant David’s sake and for Jerusalem’s sake, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel);
(33) because that they have forsaken me, and have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the children of Ammon. They have not walked in my ways, to do that which is right in my eyes, and to keep my statutes and my ordinances, as David his father did.

Yes, I do know the history.
Do you have any comments on what I wrote or are you just going to ignore it?

 

[keithr]

Yes, I do know the history.
Do you have any comments on what I wrote or are you just going to ignore it?

I was going to ignore it! You asked "What, or who, is the house of Israel and the house of Judah?", and then answered your own question with "I think the answer is the king". My response was that I believe it is referring to all of the tribes of Israel - all of God's chosen people. Therefore I don't think that it is referring the king.

But as you are asking for more comments ...

Regarding Isaiah 42:6, "I, Yahweh, have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand, and will keep you, and make you a covenant for the people, as a light for the nations", this passage is refering to the nation of Israel, His servant (not Son, although it can be interpreted to be a Messianic prophecy too, as it mirrors Christ's work through them).

You quoted 2 Samuel 12:8, "I gave you your master’s house, and your master’s wives into your bosom, and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that would have been too little, I would have added to you many more such things", claiming that king David "represents in himself the house of Israel and the house of Judah". However, it is simply stating that God made David king over Israel and Judah:

2 Samuel (WEB):

2:4) The men of Judah came, and there they anointed David king over the house of Judah.
5:3) So all the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron, and king David made a covenant with them in Hebron before Yahweh; and they anointed David king over Israel.​

The Isaiah 42 passage is similar to Isaiah 49, which is also referring to the nation of Israel. Isaiah 49 (WEB):

(1) Listen, islands, to me. Listen, you peoples, from afar: Yahweh has called me from the womb; from the inside of my mother he has mentioned my name.
(2) He has made my mouth like a sharp sword. He has hidden me in the shadow of his hand. He has made me a polished shaft. He has kept me close in his quiver.
(3) He said to me, “You are my servant; Israel, in whom I will be glorified.”

(8) Yahweh says, “In an acceptable time I have answered you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you. I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, to raise up the land, to make them inherit the desolate heritage,
(9) saying to those who are bound, ‘Come out!’; to those who are in darkness, ‘Show yourselves!’ “They shall feed along the paths, and their pasture shall be on all treeless heights.
(10) They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun strike them: for he who has mercy on them will lead them. He will guide them by springs of water.
(11) I will make all my mountains a road, and my highways shall be exalted.
(12) Behold, these shall come from afar; and behold, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.”
(13) Sing, heavens; and be joyful, earth; and break out into singing, mountains: for Yahweh has comforted his people, and will have compassion on his afflicted.
(14) But Zion said, “Yahweh has forsaken me, and the Lord has forgotten me.”
(15) “Can a woman forget her nursing child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yes, these may forget, yet I will not forget you!​

The "acceptable time" is, I believe, during the Millennial Age, after the resurrection of mankind has taken place, when Israel shall be God's chosen people on the earth, representing Him, and through whom Christ (the mediator of the New Covenant) will work. The nation of Israel will be "as a light for the nations" (42:6) and "will bring justice to the nations" (42:1). (God will not forget Israel [verse 15] - the Church replacing Israel is an erroneous belief). Isaiah 2 (WEB):

(1) This is what Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
(2) It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.
(3) Many peoples shall go and say, “Come, let’s go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion the law shall go out, and Yahweh’s word from Jerusalem.
(4) He will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.​

Genesis 22:18 (WEB): "All the nations of the earth will be blessed by your [Abraham's] offspring, because you have obeyed my voice.”

The Cambridge Bible notes on "a covenant of the people" says:

The most natural, and on the whole probably the most satisfactory rendering is, “a nation’s covenant,” i.e. the covenant upon which a nation is constituted, the conception implied being that Israel’s future national existence must be based on a new covenant between it and Jehovah (ch. Isaiah 55:3; Jeremiah 31:30-32). The difficulty is thus reduced to the pregnancy of the statement that the Servant is or shall be this covenant. It is probably to be explained in accordance with such expressions as “thou shalt be a blessing” (Genesis 12:2). As “blessing” there means “cause of blessing,” so here “covenant” may be equivalent to the ground or (as most commentators explain) the mediator of a national covenant. The idea at all events must be something like this: the Divine ideal represented by the Servant of the Lord becomes the basis of a new national life, inasmuch as it expresses that for the sake of which Jehovah enters into a new covenant relation with His people.​

 

[theefaith]

So why did you fail to post Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15 which clearly tells us that Jesus is PRESENTLY the Mediator of the New Covenant? Which means that it has been in force since His death, burial, and resurrection.

HEBREW 8: CHRIST IS THE PRESENT MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT
6 But now [PRESENT TENSE] hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [Note: this is being applied during the Church Age]
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made [PAST TENSE] the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away...
9: 15 And for this cause he is the Mediator of the New Testament [COVENANT], that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Enoch is right christ is king and His kingdom shall have no end
Lk 1:32-33

the new covenant church is eternal

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So why did you fail to post Hebrews 8:6-13; 9:15 which clearly tells us that Jesus is PRESENTLY the Mediator of the New Covenant? Which means that it has been in force since His death, burial, and resurrection.

HEBREW 8: CHRIST IS THE PRESENT MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT
6 But now [PRESENT TENSE] hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the Mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [Note: this is being applied during the Church Age]
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made [PAST TENSE] the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away...
9: 15 And for this cause he is the Mediator of the New Testament [COVENANT], that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

And I agree with this verse 100% but a mediator is only needed to finalize a covenant so it can go into effect! Once a covenant is agreed upon or goes into effect, there is no longer a need for a mediator.

mediator
[ mee-dee-ey-ter ]
See synonyms for mediator on Thesaurus.com

noun
a person who mediates, especially between parties at variance.

SYNONYMS FOR mediator

• advocate
• arbiter
• arbitrator
• broker
• go-between
• intermediary
• judge
• negotiator
• peacemaker
• referee
• troubleshooter
• conciliator
• fixer
• intermediator
• medium
• moderator
• ref
• umpire
• interagent
• interceder

So when one is mediating whether between parties or just one party- the thing being mediated (here the New covenant) has not gone into effect yet!


But I still await you to show from history when the provisions of the New Covenant went into effect:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


You can end this and prove me wrong by simply showing WHEN these provisions went into effect:

1. Both houses of Israel and Judah (all Israel)
2. Gods' LAW is inwritten in all Israel
3. Israel as a nation is once again Gods' people
4. No need to teach any Israeli to know th eLord for ALL of them (least to greatest) will know th eLord.
5. All Israels' sins are forgiven and God doesn't remember any of their sins.

Tell me and we can conclude this discussion.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes it most definitely does!

Long before the death and resurrection of Christ, God's plan all along was to require those tribal leaders of Israel and Judah to be at those historical major feast days to verify that the Messiah had indeed come and that the promises in the prophecy of Jeremiah's New Covenant had been fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost. It was also the fulfillment of Ezekiel's "2 sticks" prophecy of the house of Israel and the House of Judah being united together....in Christ.

God had them there at Peter's gospel of salvation sermon and were baptized by the Holy Spirit. After the feasts was over, they returned to their home towns and it was through that "dispersion" that the "great commission" began to be spread.

Werll you don't even know if any of the ten northern tribes were even there at Pentecost! They have been scattered since the Assyrians under Sennacherib conquered the norther tribal areas.

And representatives of ten tribes- does not mean ALL Israelis from the least to the greatest are saved! Sorry, but Jews heard the gospel, but not all from the house of Israel and Judah got saved as is required of the New covenant! Why do you feel it necessaryt o alter the simple provisions of Gods New Covenant? what is your agenda???

Here is the New covenant as written:

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Please show me which verse speaks of only representatives. Please show me the verse that shows that if these representatives get saved it equals all Israel knowing the Lord.

 

[theefaith]

Permanent mediator

salvation is permanent

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec

He is also the just judge

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Werll you don't even know if any of the ten northern tribes were even there at Pentecost!

I gave you ample truthful information from scripture that can you either accept or reject. They were there. It was the busiest time of the year for all Jews let alone the leaders. They were required to provide sacrifices for their tribe upon pain of death from God if they did not show up for those major feast.

If you have proof that they were NOT there please provide it for me.

For the last time, Peter in Acts 2 addresses the tribal leaders of Israel and Judah in his sermon. If they were not there as you seem to not want them to be, then explain why would Peter be addressing them if they were not there? And just who would have Peter speaking to when he used the term "Men of Israel" and "Men of Judea" may I ask?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I gave you ample truthful information from scripture that can you either accept or reject. They were there. It was the busiest time of the year for all Jews let alone the leaders. They were required to provide sacrifices for their tribe upon pain of death from God if they did not show up for those major feast.

If you have proof that the were NOT there please provide it for me.

One cannot prove a negative. Do you have proof that leaders of all 12 tribes were there? Please provide it for me. You made the initial claim, not I.

But let us suppose leaders from all tribes were there! How does that fulfill the New covenant as God had Jeremiah write it?

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


You can come up with all these fanciful allegorical interpretations, but I want you to show me how this "representative leader" thing fulfills the new covenant as written?

1. did God write His law (singular) in the hearts of all the houses of Israel and Judah?
2. Did god once again become the god of Israel and Israel become His people once again?
3. Did the need to teach any Israeli to know the Lord cease?
4. At Pentecost- did all from the least to the greatest know the Lord?
5. did God forgive the sins of all from the least to the greatest Israeli at Pentecost?
6. did God forgive ALL Israles sin and remember them no more?

ALl means all- not just a representative leadership. I awit your showing me how your hypothesis fulfills Gods Word.

 

[Moriah's Song]

But let us suppose leaders from all tribes were there!

I don't "suppose" they were there. Look at the map and see how many of those are in the list of the attendees on the Day of Pentecost. There is also an OT reference of Isaiah where God says he will bring men from that same list into Acts...

Isa 11:10-12 "In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious. In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. He will raise an ensign [Jesus] for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.​

A map showing the list of those leaders and other devout men from other areas...

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't "suppose" they were there. Look at the map and see how many of those are in the list of the attendees on the Day of Pentecost. There is also an OT reference of Isaiah where God says he will bring men from that same list into Acts...

Isa 11:10-12 "In that day the root of Jesse shall stand as an ensign to the peoples; him shall the nations seek, and his dwellings shall be glorious. In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant which is left of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Ethiopia, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea. He will raise an ensign [Jesus] for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.​

A map showing the list of those leaders and other devout men from other areas...
View attachment 18606

7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?

8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,

10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

And yet you don't know if one elder from the ten northern tribes scattered 8 centuries earlier were there. YOu are just assuming!

And God did not assemble the outcasts of Israel and gather the dispersed of Judah.... for there were still outcasts and dispersed jews whenh Pentecost occurred.

Your
math seems to work like this:

some people from the middle east and a small portion of Europe= all Jews.
An Assumption that leaders from the ten tribes= a reality that leaders from the ten tribes.

But I still await you explaining to me how Pentecost fulfills the New Covenant as God had it written.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

1. Show that god wrote HIS LAW (singular) in the hearts of all Jews (all 12 tribes)
2. God is once again all of Israels god and they are His people once again.
3. Jews no longer need to be taught to know the Lord (Jesus) for all from the least to the greatest know Jesus!
4. Israels iniquity (singular) has been forgiven
5. God doesn't remember the sins of Jews any more.

Just sahow when this took place and then you don't need to load and fire scatter shot like you do.

 

[Moriah's Song]

And yet you don't know if one elder from the ten northern tribes scattered 8 centuries earlier were there. YOu are just assuming!

And God did not assemble the outcasts of Israel and gather the dispersed of Judah.... for there were still outcasts and dispersed jews whenh Pentecost occurred.

Your
math seems to work like this:

some people from the middle east and a small portion of Europe= all Jews.
An Assumption that leaders from the ten tribes= a reality that leaders from the ten tribes.

But I still await you explaining to me how Pentecost fulfills the New Covenant as God had it written.

The day of Pentecost marks the birth of the New Testament Church and we find the account of the events that took place on that day in Acts 2. The chapter starts by describing the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the faithful believers, apostles and disciples of Jesus, gathered in Jerusalem in the Upper Room. It then continues by recounting the events that followed, when the Apostle Peter began preaching to devout men who were just visiting Jerusalem as well as those leaders who were commanded to be there. One estimate of attendees has it at 250,000 --- others have it in the millions as they were camped along the streets outside Jerusalem. Some theologians also believe that this major event week was a "Jubilee" year.

Acts 2:5-8 - "There were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, 'Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?'"

WHY WERE ALL THESE PEOPLE GATHERED IN JERUSALEM ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY?

They were people who had gathered in Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Weeks. All Jews [especially the tribal leaders]were commanded to travel to Jerusalem to commemorate that feast.

The Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) commemorates the anniversary of the day when God gave the Torah to the Hebrews at Mount Sinai. It is also called the Feast of Ingathering, as it marks the wheat harvest in Israel (Exodus 34:22).

On "Shavuot" (Old Testament) God wrote His Commandments on tables of stone on Mount Sinai.
On "Pentecost" (New Testament) God wrote His Commandments on tables of flesh, meaning in our hearts, with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. (Jeremiah 31)

WHO WERE ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO GATHERED IN JERUSALEM?
They were devout Jewish men from "every nation under heaven" and some proselytes, who were in Jerusalem to commemorate "Shavuot".

Acts 2:9-11 - "Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, Cretans and Arabs, we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

Parthians, Medes, Elamites: They were faithful Jewish men living in what is present day Iran. Parthia was located in the northeast, Media in the northwest, and Elam in the south just north of the Persian Gulf. At the time of the Book of Acts, all these regions were parts of the Parthian Empire. They were most likely descendants of those who had been deported after the fall of the Kingdom of Israel (Northern Kingdom) and the Kingdom of Judah (Southern Kingdom), and that never went back to live in Israel, but continued to live in those regions.

Mesopotamia: They were faithful Jewish men living in what is modern day Iraq, Kuwait, and Western Syria around the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. At the time of the Book of Acts, Mesopotamia was a Roman province.

Judea: They were faithful Jewish men living in the area around Jerusalem, which is present day Israel and Palestine. Judea was also a Roman Province at the time of the Book of Acts.

Cappadocia, Pontus, Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia: They were faithful Jewish men living in what is modern day Turkey. Cappadocia was located in eastern central Turkey, Pontus in the northeast on the Black Sea, Asia in the west on the Mediterranean Sea, Phrygia in western central Turkey, and Pamphylia on the southern central coast. They were all Roman provinces at the time of the Book of Acts.​

Egypt: They were faithful Jewish men living in what is also known today as Egypt. This was a Roman province, as well.

Cyrene:* They were faithful Jewish men living around the city of Cyrene, which is located near present day Shahat in Libya. At the time of Acts 2, modern-day Libya was divided into 3 Roman provinces: Cyrenaica in the western part of Libya, named after the city of Cyrene, Tripolitania in the northwest around the city of Tripoli and Fezzan in the south part of the country.

Note: This an interesting verse about Jesus' last moments before he was crucified in Luk 23:26 "And as they led him away, they seized one Simon of Cyrene, who was coming in from the country, and laid on him the cross, to carry it behind Jesus."​

Rome: They were faithful Jewish men and proselytes, who had converted, living in Rome, at that time capital of the Roman Empire and today capital of Italy.

Cretans: They were faithful Jewish men living on the island of Crete, in the Mediterranean Sea, now part of Greece. At the time of Acts 2, Crete was part of the Roman province called Cyrenaica in present day Libya.

Arabs: They were faithful Jewish men living in the Arabian Peninsula, present day Saudi Arabia, and perhaps other countries in that region.​

In conclusion, the New Testament Pentecost coincides with the Old Testament Feast of Weeks, and the people gathered in Jerusalem, mentioned in Acts 2, were Torah keeping/Law abiding Jewish people, who lived outside of Israel, in other gentile nations, and who had to journey to Jerusalem, as commanded, to participate in the commemoration of the giving of God's Law on Mount Sinai through Moses.

Deut. 16:15-18...15)"For seven days you shall keep the feast to the LORD your God at the place which the LORD will choose; [Jerusalem] because the LORD your God will bless you in all your produce and in all the work of your hands, so that you will be altogether joyful...16)Three times a year all your males shall appear before the LORD your God at the place which he will choose: at the feast of unleavened bread, at the feast of weeks, and at the feast of booths. They shall not appear before the LORD empty-handed;...17) every man shall give as he is able, according to the blessing of the LORD your God which he has given you. 18) You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns which the LORD your God gives you, according to your tribes; and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment."​

Note: In verse 16 it says that "all your males [leaders] shall appear....". It was a commandment! It does not say..."if you want to appear..."​

If you choose not to accept these OT commands of God that pointed forward to Acts 2 then there is no reason to keep dialogue with you. They are not my commands; they were intended for specific people.

 

[Moriah's Song]

The Cambridge Bible notes on "a covenant of the people" says:

The most natural, and on the whole probably the most satisfactory rendering is, “a nation’s covenant,” i.e. the covenant upon which a nation is constituted, the conception implied being that Israel’s future national existence must be based on a new covenant between it and Jehovah (ch. Isaiah 55:3; Jeremiah 31:30-32). The difficulty is thus reduced to the pregnancy of the statement that the Servant is or shall be this covenant. It is probably to be explained in accordance with such expressions as “thou shalt be a blessing” (Genesis 12:2). As “blessing” there means “cause of blessing,” so here “covenant” may be equivalent to the ground or (as most commentators explain) the mediator of a national covenant. The idea at all events must be something like this: the Divine ideal represented by the Servant of the Lord becomes the basis of a new national life, inasmuch as it expresses that for the sake of which Jehovah enters into a new covenant relation with His people.

All "study Bibles" with notes at the bottom are written by people who wish to promote a specific "doctrine" such as is in the Darby Bible. That KJV Bible is published with notes that John Nelson Darby alone used to promote his "theory of Dispensationalism". He was not a theologian nor an ordained minister. He never went to seminary. It was his own interpretation that was developed in the early 1800's and promoted extensively in England, Scotland and the USA.

Prior to the 1800's the amillennial view of escatology, along with premillennialism, are two of the oldest in church history, being held since the first century up until the early 1800's. But the premillennial view of today is not the same premillennial thoughts of the first century. The premillennialism of today is closer to "dispensationalism" than it was in the early church of the first century.

This is why so many people have been mislead through "notes" that are there to indoctrinate the reader to the writer's thoughts about a certain "theory". This is where many unlearned people place their trust in what "a person's interpretation" of what scripture says instead of trusting in scripture alone.

For an exmple, my RSV bible on 1 Thess 4:15 it's notes at the bottom says "Some interpreters have seen in this account evidence for the removal of the church [rapture] for a period of time [1000 years] prior to the Second Advent. Both the pe-tribulationalists and the mid-tribulationalists so hold."

[Note: those are not the apostle Paul's notes, they are "a person's thoughts" only! They are not divinely "inspired" writings any more than a Bible Dictionary or a commentator's comments are inspired as they all have some error's that must be detected before trusting in what you are reading. All pastors have libraries and used them extensively but even they can be mislead if having gone through such semanries as the Dallas Theoligical Seminary in Dallas Texas USA.

However, when letting scripture alone in verses 15 and 17 of 1 Thess above is used to determine what is meant, the verses read this way: "For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep....then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord." This all happens at the same time on the Last Day, at the end of the world, if you let scripture alone develop what is written by the apostle Paul.

If Christ should return today we would then join them on both our journies together to heaven (as in Elijah's translation) and just as those in Matthew 27:52-53 arose from their graves and entered the "holy city" --- paradise.

 

[Bruce Atkinson]

Now that this thread seems to have calmed down, perhaps it's time for me to jump in and state a couple of my beliefs about Gods' Word and what it says.

Let me start by saying that I take the Bible, eg, Gods' Word as 100% inerrant, God-inspired truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Everything any commentary writers ever spoke or wrote, including Sunday sermons at church, books, knowledgeable Bible teachers, and even more so, online media, ALL have some 'slant' to what they have written or said. Nor am I exempt from having a slant. Each of us are products of genetics and what we've been taught and learned from our first breath. So it's natural to expect differing opinions about everything. If one wants to see differing opinions to the maximum, look no further than Washington DC.

SO, as a result, everything I see, hear, and read must be verified to see if it 'lines up' with Gods' Word. If not, it gets tossed, disregarded, and at my senior years, easily forgotten. Of course, having a good knowledge of Gods' Word facilitates what is right and wrong more easily. And that knowledge requires 'rightly dividing' His Word. That comes from much personal study, classes and teaching that relies solely upon Gods' Word as the source.

Enough of an introduction...Let's start with the New Covenant as declared by God to Jeremiah

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (underlining mine)

Look at verse 31. I clearly states that this NEW COVENANT is with the 'house' of Israel and Judah. (think House of Windsor, etc, in England, eg, a bloodline) In other words, to all the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). No gentiles in there, is there?

Now look at verse 33 in more detail. God reaffirms it applies to Israel, not gentiles. Of note is the phrase 'after those days'. That phrase is used to indicate AFTER Jesus returns to earth and sets up His Kingdom ON EARTH. Jeremiah further writes that God will put 'my law' in their hearts. And once again, God will be THEIR God, and they (Israel) will be 'my' people. The use of 'my' here is very important. Reading through the Old Testament, when Israel, His chosen people, are obedient to God, God calls them 'my people'. But when they are disobedient, unbelieving, and worshiping other gods, God refers to them as 'thy people'. At present, Israel (the people and nation) are NOT obedient to God. One Bible teacher stated that when he was in Israel some years ago, their groups' Jewish guide stated that it was the PEOPLE that have restored Israel to their land and made it green again...not God. But Zechariah stated when that will change one final time to God calling them 'my people':

Zechariah 8:8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness. (KJV)
Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (KJV)

Zechariah is clearly talking about Jesus' first and only coming to earth and restores the Kingdom on earth (Israel doesn't believe He was here 2000 years ago.)

Now let's move to the Book of Hebrews. Of note, it was written TO HEBREWS, eg, Israel, sometime after 50 AD according to most Bible scholars.

Hebrews 8:6-13 (KJV)
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Note that verses 8-11 is an almost verbatim repeat of Jeremiah 31:31-34. It also repeats 'with the house of Israel and...Judah'. I don't see any gentiles in there, do you?

So I have to ask, how can 'the new covenant' be applied in any way to Gentiles? Doing so is saying that God is through with Israel, they're done and gone. One forum participant incorrectly stated that Israel IS the church! That's replacement theology, as blatant as it can get.

Now look at what follows the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:

Jeremiah 31:35-37 (KJV)
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Has any of that happened yet? Of course not! That means that Israel is STILL the chosen people and that all as yet unfulfilled prophecy in the OT and REPEATED in Hebrews WILL HAPPEN at some point in the future.

OR....God lied in Jeremiah and countless times in His Word. And if He did, then throw away your Bible...it's fiction just like 'Huckleberry Finn' by Mark Twain.

Believe what you will. But as for me and my house, I choose to believe God's Word!

 

[Moriah's Song]

I clearly states that this NEW COVENANT is with the 'house' of Israel and Judah. (think House of Windsor, etc, in England, eg, a bloodline) In other words, to all the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). No gentiles in there, is there?

You say there are no Gentiles in the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? Scripture says there most definitely is. Therefore, I have 3 brief comments about what you posted:

1- In regards to the NEW COVENANT with the 'house' of Israel and Judah, I suggest you read my post #'s 392, 398, 402, 410, 412, and 414. Then read Enoch's 401. After that I suggest theefaith's #'s 406 and 409.

2- In regards to (think House of Windsor, etc, in England, eg, a bloodline) if your position is that God only let the bloodline of Abraham and his descendants into the House of Israel and Judah, then I suggest you check out the words, alien, sojourner, foreigner, and other similar words in the OT that were Gentiles.

3- It is an absolute fact that there were Gentiles within the geneology lists of Abraham's and Jesus' descendants. Circumcision was what made a person a "Jew" --- not bloodline!​

The geneaology of Jesus (Matthew 1:1-17; and Luke 3:23-38)
The Davidc line, and thus the line of Christ, was racially mixed in that it included Gentiles as well as Hebrew ancestors. Ruth, the wife of Boaz and great-grandmother of David, was a Moabitess (Mt 1:4). Thus there was Gentile blood in the Messianic line. Most interpreters assume that Rahab of this verse refers to the Gentile harlot of Hoshua 2.1. (Hebrews Hebrews 11:31)

Let's not disregard Ephesians 2: 118...For through [Christ] we both [Jew and Gentile] have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you [Gentiles] are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God....

 

[Pythagorean12]

Why can't we just live trusting God, assured of our being sealed unto the end of our days, as we learn to let go more and more as we grow to trust the leading of Holy Spirit in our daily lives?

Rather than fixate on rules, what applies, what doesn't,insist we have to obey, worry if we aren't in God's eyes, etc....

 

[Enoch111]

Rather than fixate on rules, what applies, what doesn't,insist we have to obey, worry if we aren't in God's eyes, etc....

How does this relate to a2 + b2 = c2 (Pythagoras' Equation)? [We can't get the superscript for squared in here].

 

[Moriah's Song]

'my' people.

'MY PEOPLE' verses:

The OT prophecy people who are to be joined to "his people" that existed at the time is fulfilled in the NT:

Zec 2:11 - And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you.​

At the birth of Jesus, the OT prophecy proclaims Jesus to be the King of Israel (his people/the church).

Mat 2:6 - 'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from [Bethlehem] shall come a ruler [Jesus] who will govern my people Israel.'" (fulfilled)​

"His people" are all people (Jews and Gentiles) who are "real Jews" of the heart - not of the flesh.

Rom 2:28,29 - For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical.... He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God.​

When God uses "my people", it's always the "people of faith."

Rom 4:11,12 - [Abraham] received circumcision as a sign or seal of the righteousness which he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of ALL who believe without being circumcised and who thus have righteousness reckoned to them,... and likewise the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but also follow the example of the faith which our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.​

"God's people" are now called "sons of the living God" just as those of the OT believers were called.

Rom 9:25,26 - As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people [Gentiles] I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'my beloved.' And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"​

Here, God was not "happy" with those of Israel (his people).

Rom 10:21 - But of Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people."​

God has not rejected the Jewish remnant (his people) who were faithful but the rest have hardened hearts.

Rom 11:2-8 - 2)God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Eli'jah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3)"Lord, they have killed thy prophets, they have demolished thy altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life." 4)But what is God's reply to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Ba'al." 5) So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6)But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. 7)What then? Israel failed to obtain what it sought. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8)as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day."​

In this verse, we are now the "temple of God" and are called "my people."

2Co 6:16 - What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, "I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

All believers (Jew and Gentiles) are to walk by the rule of being a "new creation" in Christ, not by the law of circumcision.

Gal 6:15,16 - For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God.​

The New Covenant "my people" (Gentiles) are brought together with the "house of Israel" and the "law" is now the law of love.

Heb 8:10 - This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.​

All is well that ends well....with God's people!

Rev 18:4 - Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues;​