Christians are not under the New Covenant

[Moriah's Song]

The thief on the cross beside Jesus was not a Christian.

Why do you say he was not a Christian?

 

[Truther]

Christians sometimes ask “Do the 10 commandments apply to us, or were they just for the Israelites?” The answer is no they do not apply to us, and yes they do!

A summary of the Sinaitic Law is “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind; and thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37-40). Jesus kept, and fulfilled, the Law Covenant by his death. By willingly sacrificing himself so that he should become man’s redeemer (which only he could do as he was the only perfect man since Adam), he was fulfilling the Law which declares that all under it must love God more than they love themselves, and that therefore they would so delight to do God’s will that they would gladly sacrifice their own will, and even their own life. It is declared that Jesus gave up his life joyfully – “I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart” (Psalms 40:8).

Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” (Matthew 5:17). The old Sinaitic Law Covenant was fulfilled by Jesus, and is therefore no more in effect. The Apostle Paul said, “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away” (Hebrew 8:13). Paul also said “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster” (Galations 4:24-25).

The New Covenant, or Testament, has not yet gone into effect, so far as the world is concerned. The Law associated with the New Covenant will be the same unchanging Law of God, which declares divine opposition to sin, and divine favour and blessing for the righteous. This Law will be in effect during the Millennial age, when allowances will be made for mankind’s imperfections as they are gradually restored to human perfection. Thus it is written “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: … and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more” (Hebrews 8:10-12; Jeremiah 31:33-34). (This will be part of the “restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” - Acts 3:21). The New Covenant is a covenant of forgiveness, blessing and restitution.

So the Law Covenant has been fulfilled and cancelled by Jesus and the New Covenant will be in operation during the Millennial age, but what of the interim? Is there any covenant in operation, and is there any law connected with it?

During the interim Gospel age God is selecting the members of the New Creation (the body of Christ), and a covenant is now in force, and it has a law. The Apostle Paul tells us that the Law “was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made” (Galatians 3:19). Therefore the Law Covenant given at Sinai was an addition to a previous covenant, and looking back we see that the Abrahamic Covenant was the original one, and that it had stood for 430 years before the Law Covenant was added - “the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect” (Galatians 3:17).

Therefore we see that when our Lord Jesus fulfilled the Law Covenant it left the original Abrahamic Covenant, just as it was before the Law was added, and this is the covenant under which the New Creation is being developed. The Abrahamic promise or Covenant was that “in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed” (Genesis 28:14). The Apostle explained that this seed refers to Christ - “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ” (Galatians 3:16), and added, “And if ye be Christ's, [if you become members in particular of the body of Christ] then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29).

Thus Christians are not under the Sinai or Law Covenant, so what law are we under? The Apostle said “For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace” (Romans 6:14). However, this does not mean that we can willingly disobey the Sinaitic Law. When we became Christians we repented of our sinful ways, meaning we regretted them and changed direction, turning away from them (Strong’s concordance describes ‘repent’ as meaning “to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins”). Therefore, having turned away from our sinful ways, we should be trying to not sin, and as disobeying the Law covenant would be a sin we should be trying to obey the Law Covenant, even if we are no longer condemned under it if we fail to keep it completely.

When we consecrated our lives to God, we declared our love for God and his righteousness, and we became bound by the Law of Love. Our hope according to God’s promises is to become adopted sons of God (“he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will”, Ephesians 1:5, NIV), which means that we need to develop God likeness, and God is love. “He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love” (1 John 4:8).

Jesus said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:37-40). He also said “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15), and “the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me” (John 14:24). So if we love God and Jesus we should try to obey God’s commandments and laws. “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous” (1 John 5:3).

Therefore, having been redeemed from condemnation due to sin, we should now be continually striving to live according to God’s righteous laws (even though we may not be able to succeed completely while still living in our imperfect human bodies). As the Apostle Paul said, “What then? Are we to sin, because we are not under the law but under grace? Of course not!” “We died to sin: how can we live in it any longer?” “We know that our old humanity has been crucified with Christ, for the destruction of the sinful self, so that we may no longer be slaves to sin, because death cancels the claims of sin. But if we thus died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him, knowing as we do that Christ, once raised from the dead, is never to die again: he is no longer under the dominion of death. When he died, he died to sin, once for all, and now that he lives, he lives to God. In the same way you must regard yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God, in union with Christ Jesus. Therefore sin must no longer reign in your mortal body, exacting obedience to the body’s desires. You must no longer put any part of it at sin’s disposal, as an implement for doing wrong. Put yourselves instead at the disposal of God; think of yourselves as raised from death to life, and yield your bodies to God as implements for doing right.” “When you were slaves of sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. And what gain did that bring you? Things that now make you ashamed, for their end is death. But now, freed from the commands of sin and bound to the service of God, you have gains that lead to holiness, and the end is eternal life. For sin pays a wage, and the wage is death, but God gives freely, and his gift is eternal life in union with Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:15,2,6-13,20-23 - REB).

Some people do not understand this and they quote 1 John 3:9 in order to accuse others of not being true Christians – “Whosoever is born [begotten] of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born [begotten] of God”. They think this means that if you commit just one sin, then you cannot be a true Christian, failing to understand that no Christian is completely righteous (Romans 3:10, Psalms 14:2-3) or perfect, and will not be until their resurrection. In the meantime we struggle to be overcomers of the temptations of the flesh, and the world, and Satan, and though we sometimes fail we must never give up trying, nor give up the desire to be righteous. Though we cannot yet be perfect in our thoughts, words and actions, we can have a desire to be perfect. “But if I do what I do not desire, it is no more I working it out, but sin dwelling in me” (Romans 7:20 - MKJV).

The new covenant is to FUTURE national Israel, which will be instituted at the return of Christ per Jer 31.

We that have obeyed Acts 2:38 are included in this future Millennial experience in a partial way.

We are only looking through a glass darkly right now.

 

[Moriah's Song]

The new covenant is to FUTURE national Israel, which will be instituted at the return of Christ per Jer 31.

Mat 2:6..'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel.'"

Israel is God's people; not a country. They are the "church" comprised of Jews and Gentiles. Ephesians 2

 

[Truther]

Mat 2:6..'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel.'"

Israel is God's people; not a country. They are the "church" comprised of Jews and Gentiles. Ephesians 2

Jer 31 has nothing to do with gentiles being saved from the least to the greatest.
God promised the fathers of Israel to save every single one of them someday.
We are included in this future covenant in a dark glass way.

 

[Truther]

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[Moriah's Song]

God promised the fathers of Israel to save every single one of them someday.

By what verse?

 

[keithr]

Why do you say he was not a Christian?

There is no evidence to suggest that he was a follower of Jesus. Certainly the other thief wasn't because he said, “If you are the Christ, save yourself and us!” (Luke 23:39). The man to whom Jesus spoke was a thief who admitted to his crimes, which doesn't sound like a Christian to me. Matthew's account says, Matthew 27:44 (WEB):

(44) The robbers also who were crucified with him cast on him the same reproach.​

and Mark says, Mark 15:32 (WEB):

(32) ... Those who were crucified with him also insulted him.​

 

[Moriah's Song]

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 8:12..."For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Jesus fulfilled that OT Jeremiah promise! It's a done deal when an OT promise becomes fulfilled in the NT!

 

[keithr]

Mat 2:6..'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will govern my people Israel.'"

Israel is God's people; not a country. They are the "church" comprised of Jews and Gentiles. Ephesians 2

And from Ephesians 2 we see that the Church is a separate new creation, created from a combination of Jews and gentiles:

(13) But now in Christ Jesus you [gentiles] who once were far off are made near in the blood of Christ.
(14) For he is our peace, who made both one, and broke down the middle wall of partition,
(15) having abolished in his flesh the hostility, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man of the two, making peace;
(16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, having killed the hostility thereby.
(17) He came and preached peace to you who were far off and to those who were near.
(18) For through him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.
(19) So then you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
(20) being built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone;
(21) in whom the whole building, fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord;
(22) in whom you also are built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.​

Whereas God's chosen people, the Israelites, remain His chosen people Israel.

 

[Moriah's Song]

The man to whom Jesus spoke was a thief who admitted to his crimes, which doesn't sound like a Christian to me.

Luk 23:41...And we indeed justly; for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong."
Luk 23:42...And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Luk 23:43...And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

Anytime you see Jesus saying Truly, ....take it seriously! If Jesus said the thief would be in Paradise then it is truth and nothing but the truth.

Also, "to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord."

 

[Truther]

Heb 8:12..."For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more."

Jesus fulfilled that OT Jeremiah promise! It's a done deal when an OT promise becomes fulfilled in the NT!

No he did not fulfill the promise yet.

Here is the actual promise to national Israel...


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


This has not happened yet.

We are merely included in that FUTURE promise in this small segment of it...


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.


Trust me, I only figured this out a few years ago too.

 

[Moriah's Song]

my people Israel.'" God is bringing both Jews and Gentiles into his invisible church. Thousands of Jews were saved on the Day of Pentecost and that has never ceased to this day. Israel is a people; the remnant.

 

[Truther]

my people Israel.'" God is bringing both Jews and Gentiles into his invisible church. Thousands of Jews were saved on the Day of Pentecost and that has never ceased to this day. Israel is a people; the remnant.

Jer 31 states God will save all of them from the least to the greatest, so much as witnessing "know the Lord" will cease.

That has not happened yet.

Promise unfulfilled as yet.

 

[Moriah's Song]

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Jer 31:31..."Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Luk 22:20...And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

1Co 11:25...In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

2Co 3:6...who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb 8:8...For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

Heb 8:13...In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:15...Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

Heb 12:24...and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

 

[Truther]

Again, the writer of Hebrews said we are included in future Israel's promise, and never taught we replace future national Israel.

 

[Truther]

Jer 31:31..."Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Luk 22:20...And likewise the cup after supper, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

1Co 11:25...In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."

2Co 3:6...who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not in a written code but in the Spirit; for the written code kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb 8:8...For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

Heb 8:13...In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 9:15...Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.

Heb 12:24...and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.

The house of Israel/Judah are Jews, not gentiles.

As a matter of fact, the promise includes every blind and lame person on earth healed.

Is that occurring now?

 

[Truther]

Is the fulfilled promise only including partial gifts and occasional healings, seeing through a glass darkly?

 

[Truther]

The future promise fulfilled as understood by the Apostles in Jesus' recent teachings....


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


Jesus said they would not even see it....


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

 

[theefaith]

You have not explained it! You merely stated your interpretation. That doen't make it the truth, neither does it persuade me to believe you! You've not explained how you connect up the 144,000 Jews to be "sons". The 144,000 Jews, referred to as servants and not sons (Revelation 7:3), are spread evenly among 12 tribes of Israel and are on the earth after the fullnes of the gentiles (the whole of the Christian Church, who made their sacrifice during the acceptable time for sacrifice) have been resurrected and changed to become divine spirit beings, adopted sons of God, and are already sitting on their thrones in heaven (symbolically represented by the 24 elders). As Revelation 7:1 says, "After this, I saw ...". It is after the events of the previous chapter, when the resurrected Church in heaven (Revelation 5:9-10) watched Jesus open 6 of the 7 seals on the scroll.

Paul pointed out in Galations 3:16 (WEB):

(16) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his offspring. He doesn’t say, “To descendants”, as of many, but as of one, “To your offspring”, which is Christ.​

Likewise in Genesis 3:15 it speaks of the seed, singular - "thou shalt bruise his heel". You can't include the 144,000 into that seed.

Genesis 3:15 can't be referring to a "spiritual woman" (do you mean a symbolic woman?) because God speaks to her and Adam - Genesis 3:16-17 (WEB):

(16) To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth. In pain you will bear children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”
(17) To Adam he said, “Because you have listened to your wife’s voice, and ate from the tree, about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ the ground is cursed for your sake. You will eat from it with much labor all the days of your life.​

Adam then gives the woman a name - Eve (Genesis 3:20).


God has "used" many men and women, all of which were sinners. Being a sinner doesn't mean that you have sided with Satan - that's a harsh accusation to make of poor Eve, who's only recorded mistake was that she believed Satan's lies and was deceived by him.


I can - it was Eve!

Christ is the offspring, Mary is his mother
Mary is the woman who cruches satans proud head

 

[keithr]

Anytime you see Jesus saying Truly, ....take it seriously! If Jesus said the thief would be in Paradise then it is truth and nothing but the truth.

Indeed! Jesus said to the thief that day, that the thief would be in paradise and that Jesus would be with him there (similarly he is with all of us today). Jesus was not in paradise that day - he was in the grave for three days. The future home of the non-Christian is not the same future home of Christians. Jesus said, John 14:2-3 (WEB):

(2) In my Father’s house are many homes. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.
(3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.​

Jesus did not come back again to receive the thief and take hime to sit at the right hand of God (where Jesus is now).

Also, "to be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord."

Paul is talking about our future resurrection bodies - 2 Corinthians 5: (WEB):

(1) For we know that if the earthly house of our tent is dissolved, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.
(2) For most certainly in this we groan, longing to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven;​

He's saying that if we are in our human bodies then we are not yet present with Jesus in our new home, and conversely if we are absent from our human bodies then it means that we will be with Jesus (in between we sleep unconsciously in death, waiting for the resurrection). It's not saying that as soon as we die we immediately find ourselves alive again in a divine spirit being body, living in our new home in God's house. That's a still future event - 1 Thessalonians 4: (WEB):

(16) For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first,
(17) then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.​