Christians are sinners, but not of the devil

[Phoneman777]

It looks like you have plenty of friends that will split hell wide open.

Well, Jesus did say not everyone that says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom. In fact, it's safe to say most people will seek to enter the wide gate of destruction, thinking they're on the right path, but all the while walking in iniquity.

 

[Phoneman777]

Only my mother can slap me across the face and say I needed that.

King David said "Let the righteous smite me, it shall be a kindness, and let him rebuke me; it shall be an excellent oil that shall not break my head". King David was a "type of Christ" and his example of humility should be ours, right or wrong?

There is nothing sloppy or greasy about me nor dishonest nor pretentious and I know exactly what you are. Remember, one thing I am not someone claiming any level of righteousness in life. So you can thank God you are not saying these things to my face. I see your picture. You don't see mine. This is the kind of bravado that people safely behind pulpits or on line like to shout out. I can take a punch and be corrected in life, but no amount of punching will hit me so hard, that I do not believe Jesus is the Christ and is my Savior forever. Which includes your bragging words. That is the only boasting I make.

I'll not only say it to your face, but I'll show you the Scripture upon which my words stand. I'm not interested in "bravado", only stopping the spread of the FALSE gospel of greasy grace and sloppy agape, which is what you're preaching, friend. You don't know a thing about me, but that you don't like my words of truth, so you're carnal feathers are all ruffled. "Am I become your enemy because I tell you the truth?"

If you're going to climb on a public Christian forum and tell everyone how you're still sinning but only this time you feel bad about, it's our duty to tell you that's not what Christianity is about (Leviticus 19:17 KJV; James 5:20 KJV).

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

We are all Christians that believe Jesus is the Christ, and we are all sinners that need to believe in Him all the time. But we are not sinners like others that do not believe Jesus is the Christ. Before Jesus saved me, I used to try and sin as much as possible, because I liked it so much, but now I hate it when I sin. I love Jesus being in my mind and heart and do not try to sin nor enjoy it, but I still do. When we sin we still believe Jesus is the Christ and our Savior, and we are not of the devil as others enjoying their sinning without any faith in Jesus.

I have no problem telling others I am a Christians sinner if they ask me. But I do not tell them I am of the devil nor a child of the devil when I do sin, because I don't enjoy it at all.

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3.10)

Even when we are sinning, we still love Jesus and our fellow Christians and are not of the devil.

We are not in Christ if we are still a sinner. And we are not a sinner saved by grace.

A Christian is NOT a Sinner Saved By Grace | Eternal Life Blog
A Christian is NOT a Sinner Saved By Grace
Posted on September 19, 2014 by Eternal Life Blog
As strange as it may sound in our apostate day, according to Scripture, a Christian is NOT a sinner saved by grace! YES, he is saved by grace. YES, he was a sinner, before salvation. However, since the point of becoming a new creation in Christ he is NOW a righteous person and no longer a sinner! [In fact, he is also called terms which show his holy devotion to Christ such as a saint (Rom. 15:26; 16:15; 2 Cor. 1:1; 13:13; Eph. 1:1; etc.).]

What Grace Is NOT
Definition of a Sinner
The definition of a sinner, according to the Bible, is one who is on the road to hell, bound and enslaved by the cords of sin (Rom. 6: )!

​

This important difference between the term sinner and the righteous (saints) is easily shown when examining contrasting terms. Luke 15:7 and 1 Pet. 4:18 are clear. Respectively, they read:

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

And, “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”

It is also crystal clear that it is only the righteous who inherit God’s kingdom, not the unrighteous (or sinners):

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9,10, NASB).

But all sinners will be destroyed; the future of the wicked will be cut off. (Psa 37:38)

To call a blood-bought, blood-redeemed slave of righteousness (Rom. 6:18) and follower of JESUS (Jn. 10:27) a sinner is to distort and smear the holy image of being a Christian, but such a demonic distortion fits perfectly with the heretical doctrine of eternal security! Why? Because eternal security doctrine implies there are Christian adulterers, Christian drunks, Christian thieves, Christian liars, etc. To them the backsliding are still saved while in the vilest of unrepentant sin. That is a violent affront and attack to basic Bible Christian beliefs!

A Christian is Righteous – NOT a Sinner Saved By Grace
Again, a Christian is righteous, and has eternal life and eternal salvation by OBEYING JESUS (Heb. 5:9). He definitely is NOT a sinner saved by grace. In fact, the phrase sinner saved by grace is Biblically impossible in even another way! A sinner can be saved, but is NOT saved while in unrepentant sin.

People tend to retort, we all sin and Jesus was the only sinless one. TRUE, but there are different degrees of sin (1 John 5:16,17)! To say sin is sin, meaning all sins are of the same degree, is also NOT a Christian teaching! There is sin which is NOT sin unto death (1 John 5:16,17)! For a Christian to be in worry and/or not be completely humble and gentle is sin but NOT sin that leads to death as would place him back on the road to hell and make him a sinner again as we read here:

My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20, ESV)

To say a Christian is a sinner saved by grace is highly misleading according to the above and should not be used by Christians.




Do you know Jesus NOW?

 

[friend of]

When did John the Baptist consider himself a sinner?

Paul did say "sinners of which I am chief." But the New Testament alone uses the word saint or saints to refer to believers 67 times. The Bible calls us saints over and over again. Paul did not remain a Christian murdering zealot his whole life.

Paul was talking about his life even after his conversion. He evidently still believed he was a sinner.

Are you guys better than Paul?

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Paul was talking about his life even after his conversion. He evidently still believed he was a sinner.

Are you guys better than Paul?

Was it Paul who said,''therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. ''

How has the new in Christ come if we are still the old sinner?

Are Christians Sinners or Saints? - Berean Publishers
Paul's Hebrew Style of Writing

A scripture that would appear to be directly on point is from the Apostle Paul:

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. (1 Timothy 1:15-16).

Paul used the present tense when calling himself a sinner. Surely that means that all the rest of us are sinners as well. Unfortunately, it isn't that easy and such reasoning leads to a faulty conclusion.

In an earlier article, “Romans 7 Revisited,”[1] I discussed the present tense issue as Paul created the same difficulty by using the present tense in Romans 7:14-24. Both passages appear inconsistent with the rest of Scripture because of Paul's present tense use of the verbs. He makes it sound as if it were applicable to him at the time he wrote it. After we look at this anomaly more closely, I’m sure you’ll see that the unusual use of verbs is Paul’s writing style and is/was a common Hebrew way of writing.

In the Preface to Young's Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, the translator tells us of two principles to understand about Hebrew writers (even though they may be writing in the Greek language):

I. That the Hebrews were in the habit of using the past tense to express the certainty of an action taking place, even though the action might not really be performed for some time.

II. That the Hebrews, in referring to events which might be either past or future were accustomed to act on the principle of transferring themselves mentally to the period and place of the events themselves, and were not content with coldly viewing them as those of a bygone or still coming time; hence the very frequent use of the present tense (emphasis added).

Apparently, that is what Paul did. He placed himself in the past as though it were the present. Since that is not the western way of speaking and writing, it has caused much confusion in understanding these passages. Based on what the other scriptures say about “sinners,” you can make your own judgment on whether Paul is the worst of sinners or whether using present tense when speaking of a past situation is true of Paul's writing in this instance.

 

[Wynona]

Paul was talking about his life even after his conversion. He evidently still believed he was a sinner.

Are you guys better than Paul?

I disagree that Paul was talking about his life after conversion.

This same Paul wrote "Shall we sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!"

No one here claimed to be above Paul. Humility is an honest assessment of yourself. If you are saved by Jesus and walk in the light, it's more humble to call yourself a saint for that is what you are.

We must all remember that we came from sin in our past. But if we are still sinners, we need to repent. Jesus came and that's not who we are anymore. That's the testimony of the saints.

 

[Enoch111]

But we are not sinners like others that do not believe Jesus is the Christ.

Those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Which means that they are SAINTS. Now can saints sin and do they sin? Yes. Why? Because the old Adamic nature has not been eradicated. But because the Holy Spirit is within Paul says "SIN SHALL NOT HAVE DOMINION OVER YOU". So the focus must always be on righteousness, not sin.

 

[Taken]

Christians are sinners, but not of the devil
OP^

Everyone begins as a natural born sinner.
Everyone commits sin.
Christ believers that are not converted can continue to sin.
Converted IN Christ believers are Forgiven sinners, and sin no more.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

It's a shame when threads like this show how the instruments of men, denominations, have misled people so to not understand the basics of Salvation.
And what it means to be redeemed in Christ.

Sad. Truly sad.

 

[friend of]

I disagree that Paul was talking about his life after conversion.

This same Paul wrote "Shall we sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!"

No one here claimed to be above Paul. Humility is an honest assessment of yourself. If you are saved by Jesus and walk in the light, it's more humble to call yourself a saint for that is what you are.

We must all remember that we came from sin in our past. But if we are still sinners, we need to repent. Jesus came and that's not who we are anymore. That's the testimony of the saints.

Okay, so you personally are not guilty of thought-sin? You have no sins of omission? You are 100% in tune with what the Spirit of God demands of you all of the time?

 

[Wynona]

Okay, so you personally are not guilty of thought-sin? You have no sins of omission? You are 100% in tune with what the Spirit of God demands of you all of the time?

If by thought-sin you mean the weird thoughts that pop into your head, I don't consider that sin. Those are part of being in an imperfect body. They can definitely become sin but at that point you have a choice to either dwell on it or cast it down before you act on it.

I don't really buy the whole sins of ommission thing because its as if were suppose to be doing all things at all times and that's impossible. God does not set an impossible standard for us. We live in the present moment and in each of those moments we are either doing something wrong or doing something totally okay with God with a clear conscience. You can't be doing both at the same time. I believe its more than possible to go a day in this clear conscience without transgressing God's Word. Sins of ommission isn't in the Bible.

We are to love God wholeheartedly but treating this like some unobtainable goal doesn't serve us. We can only do this day by day, one hour at a time. If theres something good you know to do, you do it. But there are plenty of things to do without transgressing.

When we walk in love, we go beyond just not stealing or killing. We live by the Spirit and give our resources, fulfilling and going beyond the law. But again, this happens one moment at a time and we respond one choice at a time.

 

[friend of]

If by thought-sin you mean the weird thoughts that pop into your head, I don't consider that sin. Those are part of being in an imperfect body. They can definitely become sin but at that point you have a choice to either dwell on it or cast it down before you act on it.

We are in an imperfect body tainted by sin. If we have evil thoughts pop into our heads, those thoughts defile us on some level.

I don't really buy the whole sins of ommission thing because its as if were suppose to be doing all things at all times and that's impossible.

Sins of ommission isn't in the Bible.

That's kind of the point, that it is impossible. And yes, sins of omission is a scriptural doctrine, as per James 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

God does not set an impossible standard for us.

The OT Law was an impossible standard that God did hold his people to, at one point in history. This is why we need Jesus. He meets that righteous standard, not us. It's something we cannot do in our own power.

 

[Wynona]

That's kind of the point, that it is impossible. And yes, sins of omission is a scriptural doctrine, as per James 4:17 "If anyone, then, knows the good they ought to do and doesn't do it, it is sin for them.

If thats how you define sins of omission, then sure. But the keywords are "if anyone knows the good." I don't think were meant to overwhelm ourselves with this. But we deal with the good we know to do one moment and choice at a time. So no, we don't have sin every day.

The OT Law was an impossible standard that God did hold his people to, at one point in history.

Are you sure? God did expect them to keep it.

Exodus 15:26

26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.

Leviticus 22:31

31 Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the Lord.

This is why we need Jesus. He meets that righteous standard, not us.

Jesus died so we can also meet God's righteous standard. Not so that we can remain unrighteous and somehow make it into heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Jesus didn't die to make us slightly less sinful. He died so that through his blood and forgiveness of our former ways, we could obtain the same righteousness that He has. And if we confess our sins, he is faithful to forgive. But we cannot remain in willful sin and in Christ at the same time.

 

[Enoch111]

A Christian is Righteous – NOT a Sinner Saved By Grace

How about both? There is no contradiction since a sinner saved by grace is a child of God and a saint. And Christians are DEEMED to be "righteous" with the imputed righteousness of Christ. Which means that God also expects them to be righteous in their thoughts and deeds. The focus should always be on righteousness.

 

[Enoch111]

...thinking they're on the right path, but all the while walking in iniquity.

Why would genuine Christians be "walking in iniquity" rather than walking in the Spirit? So you need to distinguish between genuine Christians and those who are only professors. The parable of the wheat and the tares (the darnel – Lolium temulentum) shows that the tares are actually very similar to wheat yet different.

 

[dhh712]

We are all Christians that believe Jesus is the Christ, and we are all sinners that need to believe in Him all the time. But we are not sinners like others that do not believe Jesus is the Christ. Before Jesus saved me, I used to try and sin as much as possible, because I liked it so much, but now I hate it when I sin. I love Jesus being in my mind and heart and do not try to sin nor enjoy it, but I still do. When we sin we still believe Jesus is the Christ and our Savior, and we are not of the devil as others enjoying their sinning without any faith in Jesus.

I have no problem telling others I am a Christians sinner if they ask me. But I do not tell them I am of the devil nor a child of the devil when I do sin, because I don't enjoy it at all.

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. (1 John 3.10)

Even when we are sinning, we still love Jesus and our fellow Christians and are not of the devil.

I'd say just that when we do sin, we are turning from Jesus--pushing him off the throne and asserting ourselves there. We are acting out of character, not like the children of God that we are (at that time, *we* have essentially emancipated us from himself and said I am not yours--though God himself never changes and never stops loving us).

But yes, we definitely are not like those "of the world" because we ARE a new creation in Him, as stated by the revealed word of God (2 Cor 5:17). The things we now do which are not outright sin are done, though tainted by remaining corruption and done with impure motives, are done to the glory of God (the "good" things nonbelievers do cannot be done to his glory because they do not believe in him; that is the difference between our good works and theirs), and he looks on them as though they were done in the perfect righteousness of his Son.

Sorry. I Learning how to work my way around here.

I am not saved by works and I'm not saved by believing what is true doctrine. But that does not mean I do not like the study and learning of it. And the Bible is the only book I read about Jesus Christ. I do not avoid any intellectual debates about it all. I read where prophets, apostles, and other learned believers did the same thing.

Do you have a quote for Christians will not sin? You did not quote that in Romans and John. And I know there isn't. I am ignorant of the Bible at all, though no one knows it all.

This is also why I stopped allowing my faith in being saved by Jesus to be doubted by teachings and how to live.

Don't even bother. It is very clear in God's revealed word that we will continue to sin (no matter the Bible verses you post the "sinless perfection" believers will continue to ignore them and instead focus on the ones that exhort us not to sin which should be done more often than it is. Sinning is often taken way, way too lightly amongst the children of God. God has paid an awful price to save us from the devil and unrighteousness. To go about and sin casually with a casual thought of, "Oh, well, Jesus paid for my sins so it's okay--cannot be the attitude of a child of God. Anyone who says/thinks that certainly exhibits the character of not knowing God). These people who think that they on earth are manifesting the perfect righteousness of Jesus in their life make me ill--to think that someone can view themselves as pure as the Son of God in this life! What wretchedness! Fit only to be expelled like the vomit and filth that it is.

I'm sorry but you did not give me the quote about what you said. That Christians will not sin.

I know that is not true, because I do and will sin.

And they won't because there is no verse in the Bible that says "Christians will not sin". It says if we sin we are not in God and things of the like because when we do sin we are acting out of character and not acting like we are in God and at the time we have drawn away from him so in a sense we aren't in him. But like I said, you can post the verses that clearly show sinning continues once we belong to Jesus, but it won't do anything. Just ignore them. That's the best you can do. The best thing you can do when they start arguing for "sinless perfection" is to ignore such heresy and outright nonsense. You will get nowhere arguing for the Truth.

Those who believe they live a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time (exactly as Jesus lived) are suffering from a terminal case of self righteousness. (1 John 1:8-10)

Exactly! And spouting off such nonsense is directly from the mouth of Satan. It shows that they are truly a child of the Devil (at that time; I cannot speak for their eternal souls because that is not my place).

 

[Always Believing]

1 John 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

No Christian tries to. I used to try to all the time. Now I don't. I'm not the same sinner I used to be. Are you saying Christians are not sinners anymore at all? Or are you just saying we don't make a practice of it anymore, because we don't like it anymore. We now try to resist the evil rather than pursuing him, though we do still still.

When I sin now it's not with the devil, because I don't like it or him anymore. If a Christians says they don't believing in sinning and aren't doing it, then I congratulate them. I don't judge anyone's life anymore. And if they say it's because of being same, then even better. Only when they base being save on it do I reject being justified by doing the law. Abraham was justified by doing the work of faith, not by doing a law code. Anyone can obey a law and doesn't mean they believe in it or the one writing it.

 

[Always Believing]

I'd say just that when we do sin, we are turning from Jesus--pushing him off the throne and asserting ourselves there. We are acting out of character, not like the children of God that we are (at that time, *we* have essentially emancipated us from himself and said I am not yours--though God himself never changes and never stops loving us).

But yes, we definitely are not like those "of the world" because we ARE a new creation in Him, as stated by the revealed word of God (2 Cor 5:17). The things we now do which are not outright sin are done, though tainted by remaining corruption and done with impure motives, are done to the glory of God (the "good" things nonbelievers do cannot be done to his glory because they do not believe in him; that is the difference between our good works and theirs), and he looks on them as though they were done in the perfect righteousness of his Son.



Don't even bother. It is very clear in God's revealed word that we will continue to sin (no matter the Bible verses you post the "sinless perfection" believers will continue to ignore them and instead focus on the ones that exhort us not to sin which should be done more often than it is. Sinning is often taken way, way too lightly amongst the children of God. God has paid an awful price to save us from the devil and unrighteousness. To go about and sin casually with a casual thought of, "Oh, well, Jesus paid for my sins so it's okay--cannot be the attitude of a child of God. Anyone who says/thinks that certainly exhibits the character of not knowing God). These people who think that they on earth are manifesting the perfect righteousness of Jesus in their life make me ill--to think that someone can view themselves as pure as the Son of God in this life! What wretchedness! Fit only to be expelled like the vomit and filth that it is.



And they won't because there is no verse in the Bible that says "Christians will not sin". It says if we sin we are not in God and things of the like because when we do sin we are acting out of character and not acting like we are in God and at the time we have drawn away from him so in a sense we aren't in him. But like I said, you can post the verses that clearly show sinning continues once we belong to Jesus, but it won't do anything. Just ignore them. That's the best you can do. The best thing you can do when they start arguing for "sinless perfection" is to ignore such heresy and outright nonsense. You will get nowhere arguing for the Truth.



Exactly! And spouting off such nonsense is directly from the mouth of Satan. It shows that they are truly a child of the Devil (at that time; I cannot speak for their eternal souls because that is not my place).

No one is talking about sinning as taking a casual walk. It is a matter of what we are serious about now. As a Christian I am now serious about doing good when I can and not serious about trying to sin anymore. I used to be serious about sinning any time and any good I may have done was only casual or by accident. I never did anything for God in the past and I used to brag about sinning with the devil on the highway to hell. I now only care most seriously about believing Jesus is the Christ and my Savior and being serious about doing some good if I can. I am not serious about sinning anymore because I don't like it even when I do it now.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

No Christian tries to. I used to try to all the time. Now I don't. I'm not the same sinner I used to be. Are you saying Christians are not sinners anymore at all? Or are you just saying we don't make a practice of it anymore, because we don't like it anymore. We now try to resist the evil rather than pursuing him, though we do still still.

When I sin now it's not with the devil, because I don't like it or him anymore. If a Christians says they don't believing in sinning and aren't doing it, then I congratulate them. I don't judge anyone's life anymore. And if they say it's because of being same, then even better. Only when they base being save on it do I reject being justified by doing the law. Abraham was justified by doing the work of faith, not by doing a law code. Anyone can obey a law and doesn't mean they believe in it or the one writing it.

I think if I still see myself as a sinner then all that Jesus accomplishes in my is moot.
I'm not perfect, but I am aware as a saint in the body of Christ.

 

[ScottA]

Many struggle with the biblical facts that would seem to contradict each other regarding salvation and sin, the idea of being a new creation and old things have passed, not quite working out in their own lives. Leaning on their own understanding, many determine that it is therefore rather a process rather than the reality of all things have become new; other determine that it is written so surely it can be done, and they try like Israel tried to keep the law. Both fail.

What is missing is the heavenly understanding of these matters. It is our own worldly understanding that gets in the way. For example: When some read the biblical fact that Jesus was the Lamb slain (past tense) "before the foundation of the world", in their own understanding they rationalize that it was only predetermined or preordained before the foundation of the world--even though the words are clearly "was" and "slain." Many do the same thing when they read that we who belong to Christ "were crucified" with Him.

The problem is the timing. That is our struggle--and it is of the world...Time was also created. And that is not a good thing--God is good, and He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Which, by the way, is a worldly way of saying "I am", meaning: always the same and timeless. Yes, in the kingdom (it is written) there is "no shadow of turning", no sunrises, no sunsets, no darkness of night--no time. Which is the problem we have with understanding what is written opposed to what we can and do or do not comprehend of that heavenly part that doesn't even exist in the same way that it unfolds in our life experience.

But which is true--that which is limited to our own understanding in that worldly context...or the actual truth from God (as it is actually written) in His timeless and heavenly context? And what does that mean regarding sins that seem to go on and on regardless of what is written of salvation? It means--just as it does when all biblical things are not fully understandable--that we don't know the truth of it.

Now then, having been given the understanding to explain the problem, I could also explain the truth of it--and I have. But like most hard biblical truths, such things are rejected, sometimes for centuries.

James 1:5
If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.​