Christians Must Serve by the Law

[GracePeace]

Thanks you @GracePeace and may I also respond to other posters?

LOL

 

[Pearl]

LOL

 

[GracePeace]

but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Still not a Jew.

Oh ya Proverbs....again not a Jew....

What is it that the Old Testament has that you want.....you want to sell your daughter as a sex slave....have multiple wives....think people should separate their livestock by color....what?

1. Your error is in thinking "Jew" refers only to a religion.

2. I didn't mention non-Jews in the OP for a reason : for Paul, it was a foregone conclusion that non-Jews would not serve by Law (after the greeting in Romans 1, basically all of it addresses Jewish believers in the Roman Church until Romans 11:13 when he finally begins to speak to the Gentile believers).

I do not hold that Gentile Christians are to serve by Law. I named it that because that would be the debate. You should have known that by this point in the conversation, yet you're still pecking at me as if I held Gentile believers did because you haven't been reading before responding--I tried to help you by giving you a hint by citing Proverbs but even that was no use. You are a shining example... of what not to be and do in these discussions.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Apostle Paul says when a Jew trusts in Christ Jesus, he is exempted from his obligation to serve God by the Law. His argument is that the Torah is binding only on the living Jew, and that when anyone comes to faith in Christ they share in Christ's death ("I have been crucified with Christ")... but since we are "alive from the dead" Romans 6:13, naturally, since we still need to serve God, we should have questions as to how that is to be done. According to Paul, we are "under Grace" as the new means of service to God.

Objections:
1. "Oh yeah? Does that mean you can murder? Does that mean you can commit idolatry?"
A: "Not under Law but under Grace" doesn't mean "we can sin", it means "there's a new way to serve". The result is we fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law--He writes His Law on our hearts and minds Jeremiah 31:31-34, Romans 2:13-15 Romans 2:26-27, Romans 3:31, Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10. Those who serve by following the laws He writes in their hearts are qualified as "doers of the Law who will be justified".
2. "'Not under Law' doesn't mean 'you don't have to obey Law', it means 'not condemned by Law--because of Jesus's sacrifice--but we still have to live by the Law."
A: Really?
i. If "not under Law" means "not condemned by Law", then what does "under Grace" mean--"condemned by Grace"? How is that a means of service?
ii. No, the Greek for "under" means "under the jurisdiction of"--in other words, we are under Grace's authority, and we obey Grace as the new means of serving God.

Paul was a Pharisee. Death exempting the Jew from service to God through the Torah was a normative Pharisaic doctrine, and it was later codified in the Talmud:

Niddah 61b
Our Rabbis taught: A garment in which kil'ayim4 was lost5 may not be sold to an idolater,6 nor may one make of it a packsaddle for an ass, but it may be made into7 a shroud for a corpse. R. Joseph observed: This8 implies that the commandments will be abolished in the Hereafter.9 Said Abaye (or as some say R. Dimi) to him: But did not R. Manni10 in the name of R. Jannai state, 'This8 was learnt only in regard to the time of the lamentations11 but for burial12 this is forbidden'?13 — The other replied: But was it not stated in connection with it, 'R. Johanan ruled: Even for burial'? And thereby R. Johanan followed his previously expressed view, for R. Johanan stated: 'What is the purport of the Scriptural text, Free14 among the dead?15 As soon as a man dies he is free from the commandments'.

A brief discussion on the matter:

In other words, even Orthodox Jews would largely agree with Paul on this point--the issue is only the understanding of Messiah, qualifying as having "died" through faith in Him, and perhaps what the means of service might be afterward.

Many more things could be said, but I'm sure this is plenty to start the conversation.

I think condemned by the law is accurate. Because whoever is under law must be perfect. Only Christ met that standard. Hence all who are under the law are cursed (gal 3)

Under grace would mean we are under favor. Which is unmerited. In other words. The curse is removed. even though we still fail to keep the law. As paul said to the colossians, That was against us, contrary to us was nailed to the cross.

 

[GracePeace]

I think condemned by the law is accurate. Because whoever is under law must be perfect. Only Christ met that standard. Hence all who are under the law are cursed (gal 3)

Under grace would mean we are under favor. Which is unmerited. In other words. The curse is removed. even though we still fail to keep the law. As paul said to the colossians, That was against us, contrary to us was nailed to the cross.

If "under" (in "under Law") means "condemned", then "under Grace" means "condemned by Grace". How is that a reason sin will not be your master?

 

[Grailhunter]

1. Your error is in thinking "Jew" refers only to a religion.

2. I didn't mention non-Jews in the OP for a reason : for Paul, it was a foregone conclusion that non-Jews would not serve by Law (after the greeting in Romans 1, basically all of it addresses Jewish believers in the Roman Church until Romans 11:13 when he finally begins to speak to the Gentile believers).

I do not hold that Gentile Christians are to serve by Law. I named it that because that would be the debate. You should have known that by this point in the conversation, yet you're still pecking at me as if I held Gentile believers did because you haven't been reading before responding--I tried to help you by giving you a hint by citing Proverbs but even that was no use. You are a shining example... of what not to be and do in these discussions.

First off it would help if you could write a sentence that is understandable.

Secondly, I have explained to you that what you are saying does not hold water.

Third, there is a lot going on with the Jews today. I grew up with the Jews and I have a lot of Jewish friends. And their beliefs are rather diversified, but it they want to be a Christian, they have to let all that go.

So the title of the thread...Christians must serve by the law...the answer is hands down, no. Christ released us from the burden and curse of the law....that ministry of death engraved in stones and any attempt to observe the law or look to law for justification removes you from the New Covenant and salvation from Christ....Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Not even an inch for you.

 

[GracePeace]

First off it would help if you could write a sentence that is understandable.

For anyone interested, his contention is that you can't be Jewish and Christian. Obviously, you can, because "Jew" refers not only to a practitioner of a religion but also to an ethnicity.

Secondly, I have explained to you that what you are saying does not hold water.

Which part? The part you didn't read?

Third, there is a lot going on with the Jews today. I grew up with the Jews and I have a lot of Jewish friends. And their beliefs are rather diversified, but it they want to be a Christian, they have to let all that go.

You're still misunderstanding me.

So the title of the thread...Christians must serve by the law...the answer is hands down, no.

I titled it that way because that would be the content of the debate, not because I held or hold to it.
You didn't read the OP before responding to it (hence citation of Proverbs 18:13).
Even now you're not responding to me because I don't hold that Christians are the serve by Law.

Christ released us from the burden and curse of the law....that ministry of death engraved in stones and any attempt to observe the law or look to law for justification removes you from the New Covenant and salvation from Christ....Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Not even an inch for you.

So you're going to pretend I actually believe something I don't believe instead of humbling yourself?

You really are giving everyone an in-depth expose on yourself. LOL

 

[kcnalp]

I'm so glad I'm not under the Law of Moses!

 

[GracePeace]

I'm so glad I'm not under the Law of Moses!

I was hoping to interact with people who disagreed, but, yes, I also am glad for Grace.

 

[Grailhunter]

For anyone interested, his contention is that you can't be Jewish and Christian. Obviously, you can, because "Jew" refers not only to a practitioner of a religion but also to an ethnicity.


Which part? The part you didn't read?


You're still misunderstanding me.


I titled it that way because that would be the content of the debate, not because I held or hold to it.
You didn't read the OP before responding to it.
Even now you're not responding to me because I don't hold that Christians are the serve by Law.


So you're going to pretend I actually believe something I don't believe instead of humbling yourself?

You really are giving everyone an in-depth expose on yourself. LOL

You have not stated what you believe and what you want out of the Old Testament.
You say that you don't hold that Christians are to serve by the law.....I say there is nothing directly or indirectly that applies to Christians .... no fashion and no form.

Mark 2:21-22 No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.”

Not an inch!

 

[kcnalp]

Who wants to be under the Law?

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (NKJV)
6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,
8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him;
9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God,

 

[GracePeace]

You have not stated what you believe and what you want out of the Old Testament.

Correction : You haven't read the OP where I stated what I believed.
Correction : I don't hold that Christians serve by the Law.

You say that you don't hold that Christians are to serve by the law.....I say there is nothing directly or indirectly that applies to Christians .... no fashion and no form.

So you're trying to move the goalposts now that you see you've erred?

Not an inch!

Stubbornness is not something to be proud of.

 

[GracePeace]

Who wants to be under the Law?

Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (NKJV)
6 "If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods,' which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers,
7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth,
8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him;
9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.
10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God,

Please do not post a bunch of "I agree" stuff.

You probably still haven't read the OP either.

What a mess.

Guys, stop responding without reading the OP.

 

[Grailhunter]

Correction : You haven't read the OP where I stated what I believed.
Correction : I don't hold that Christians serve by the Law.


So you're trying to move the goalposts now that you see you've erred?


Stubbornness is not something to be proud of.

Again I am not allowing you to talk around the topic. Serve by the law?....Not anything by the law, no observance directly or indirectly. No consideration what so ever of the law.

 

[GracePeace]

Again I am not allowing you to talk around the topic. Serve by the law?....Not anything by the law, no observance directly or indirectly. No consideration what so ever of the law.

What does "talk around the topic" mean?

What are you arguing against? What is it you are thinking I am holding to?

 

[Grailhunter]

What does "talk around the topic" mean?

What are you arguing against? What is it you are thinking I am holding to?

You

 

[GracePeace]

You

What do I supposedly believe that you're arguing against?

 

[Grailhunter]

What do I supposedly believe that you're arguing against?

Well exactly, what is your point, you have not defined your point, except some attachment to the law. And as you can tell from the responses, that is the general consciences. You have not been clear what you want or believe of the Old Testament. So if there is any confusion, that is on you.

 

[GracePeace]

Well exactly, what is your point

So, again, you're responding without knowing what you're responding to.

you have not defined your point

Incorrect, you have not read where I defined my point in the very first statement.
If you're not going to read what people say, you're going to think they haven't defined their point.

except some attachment to the law.

Again, you haven't read what I said so you can't respond to it--I didn't say I have "some attachment to the Law".

And as you can tell from the responses, that is the general consciences. You have not been clear what you want or believe of the Old Testament. So if there is any confusion, that is on you.

No, the confusion is on you because you haven't read where I've stated my beliefs.
You're responding... to what you don't even know.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, again, you're responding without knowing what you're responding to.


Incorrect, you have not read where I defined my point in the very first statement.
If you're not going to read what people say, you're going to think they haven't defined their point.


Again, you haven't read what I said so you can't respond to it--I didn't say I have "some attachment to the Law".


No, the confusion is on you because you haven't read where I've stated my beliefs.
You're responding... to what you don't even know.

Look at your own responses to everyone here....the only thing you have addressed is that people do not understand your point.
So it is time to make your point clear, if we have misunderstood you.