Christians Must Serve by the Law

[GracePeace]

Galatians 3:25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Christian faith does not establish the law.

You don't read carefully. That was a word for word quote.

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

The law came before Christian faith.

And? The same guy wrote Romans 3:31.

Romans 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

Hebrews 8:13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is about to disappear.

2nd Corinthians 3:7-10 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.

Galatians 5:2 Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

A little expanded on the detail
Galatians 5:1-6
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Look! I, Paul, tell you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who has himself circumcised, that he is obligated to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by the Law; you have fallen from grace. For we, through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

The morals of the law are inferior to the teachings of Christ. The spirit of the Law was of cruelty and Paul refers to it as a curse.

You are completely confused.

Too many errors to keep responding.

Doesn't matter anyway, the main topic is that we're not under Law--on that you agree with me.

The rest I am not under obligation to correct.

 

[Grailhunter]

I think it is more that we should not violate the law as a general rule. The exception is when the letter violates the Spirit, such as lying to protect innocent lives.

Do us both a big favor....you would find this amusing, if you actually did it. Go study the 613 Mosaic Laws and then come back and tell me what they have to do with Christianity.

Even the ten of the 14 laws that people call the ten commandments that were stated at Mt Sinai, would have issues with Christianity.
Christians do not observe the Sabbath...only one of those and it is on Saturday.
Engraven images of any kind? We have blown that out of the water....
Do not covet what an other man owns....LOL...his wives are listed in the property list. We do not own our wives.

 

[Grailhunter]

Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Now put that in motion....when was the law establish?

You don't read carefully. That was a word for word quote.

Romans 3:31
Do we then nullify the Law through faith? Far from it! On the contrary, we establish the Law.


And? The same guy wrote Romans 3:31.


You are completely confused.

Too many errors to keep responding.

Doesn't matter anyway, the main topic is that we're not under Law--on that you agree with me.

The rest I am not under obligation to correct.

Most of my post was biblical quotes but it complete discredits your points.

 

[Wrangler]

Interesting translation ...

Romans 3:31
The Voice

31 So are we trying to use faith to abolish the law? Absolutely not! In fact, we now are free to uphold the law as God intended.

 

[GracePeace]

Now put that in motion....when was the law establish?


Most of my post was biblical quotes but it complete discredits your points.

No more off-topic replies here please.
Go here to discuss the topic.

 

[GracePeace]

Most of my post was biblical quotes but it complete discredits your points.

"Iron sharpens iron" : we are edified by discussion of what we opine the Bible states.

 

[GracePeace]

Interesting translation ...

Romans 3:31
The Voice
31 So are we trying to use faith to abolish the law? Absolutely not! In fact, we now are free to uphold the law as God intended.

Excellent.

Yeah, Paul knows the Jewish objection (he was addressing the Jews in the Roman Church) :
"Any prophet who tries to take us away from God's Commandments is a false prophet!" Deuteronomy 13:1-11

Paul is saying, "Don't worry about that--we establish the Law!"

He already stated that Gentile believers qualified as "doers of the Law" on account of the faith Romans 2:13-15, Romans 2:26-27 but he will proceed to expound further.

 

[Shattered]

Apostle Paul says when a Jew trusts in Christ Jesus, he is exempted from his obligation to serve God by the Law. His argument is that the Torah is binding only on the living Jew, and that when anyone comes to faith in Christ they share in Christ's death ("I have been crucified with Christ")... but since we are "alive from the dead" Romans 6:13, naturally, since we still need to serve God, we should have questions as to how that is to be done. According to Paul, we are "under Grace" as the new means of service to God.

Objections:
1. "Oh yeah? Does that mean you can murder? Does that mean you can commit idolatry?"
A: "Not under Law but under Grace" doesn't mean "we can sin", it means "there's a new way to serve". The result is we fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law--He writes His Law on our hearts and minds Jeremiah 31:31-34, Romans 2:13-15 Romans 2:26-27, Romans 3:31, Romans 8:4, Romans 13:8-10. Those who serve by following the laws He writes in their hearts are qualified as "doers of the Law who will be justified".
2. "'Not under Law' doesn't mean 'you don't have to obey Law', it means 'not condemned by Law--because of Jesus's sacrifice--but we still have to live by the Law."
A: Really?
i. If "not under Law" means "not condemned by Law", then what does "under Grace" mean--"condemned by Grace"? How is that a means of service?
ii. No, the Greek for "under" means "under the jurisdiction of"--in other words, we are under Grace's authority, and we obey Grace as the new means of serving God.

Paul was a Pharisee. Death exempting the Jew from service to God through the Torah was a normative Pharisaic doctrine, and it was later codified in the Talmud:

Niddah 61b
Our Rabbis taught: A garment in which kil'ayim4 was lost5 may not be sold to an idolater,6 nor may one make of it a packsaddle for an ass, but it may be made into7 a shroud for a corpse. R. Joseph observed: This8 implies that the commandments will be abolished in the Hereafter.9 Said Abaye (or as some say R. Dimi) to him: But did not R. Manni10 in the name of R. Jannai state, 'This8 was learnt only in regard to the time of the lamentations11 but for burial12 this is forbidden'?13 — The other replied: But was it not stated in connection with it, 'R. Johanan ruled: Even for burial'? And thereby R. Johanan followed his previously expressed view, for R. Johanan stated: 'What is the purport of the Scriptural text, Free14 among the dead?15 As soon as a man dies he is free from the commandments'.

A brief discussion on the matter:

In other words, even Orthodox Jews would largely agree with Paul on this point--the issue is only the understanding of Messiah, qualifying as having "died" through faith in Him, and perhaps what the means of service might be afterward.

Many more things could be said, but I'm sure this is plenty to start the conversation.

A fascinating OP on Paul's expositions regarding the Law. It might help others to read the OP and consider relevant passages from Romans before reacting to the title of this topic.

How the Law "works" to those who know the Law. Quoting from the NASB.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. (Romans 7:1-3)

The Law doesn't have jurisdiction over the dead; death releases one from the governance of the Law. Hence the widow who marries is not an adulteress for according to the Law, she is not married because her first husband dies (she's released from him). The death we experience with Christ Jesus is most assuredly spiritual and doesn't affect this body of flesh and blood for the Son of God paid the penalty of physical death for us. Our death with Him therefore releases us from the jurisdiction of the Law.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:4-6)

What is Grace, then? I look to Paul's letter to Titus for the definition of God's Grace which relates to the "newness of the Spirit" the apostle revealed in the sixth verse of Romans 7 above. I'm in agreement that Grace governs how we serve the Lord once we are alive in Christ.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:11-14)

The grace of God can be therefore be understood to mean that God Himself instructs us as opposed to the "letter that kills," that righteous penalty of the Law exacted upon every transgressor. The Law condemned us to death. However, those who died cannot be slain!

A pity that some didn't read the OP.

 

[GracePeace]

A fascinating OP on Paul's expositions regarding the Law. It might help others to read the OP and consider relevant passages from Romans before reacting to the title of this topic.

How the Law "works" to those who know the Law. Quoting from the NASB.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. (Romans 7:1-3)

The Law doesn't have jurisdiction over the dead; death releases one from the governance of the Law. Hence the widow who marries is not an adulteress for according to the Law, she is not married because her first husband dies (she's released from him). The death we experience with Christ Jesus is most assuredly spiritual and doesn't affect this body of flesh and blood for the Son of God paid the penalty of physical death for us. Our death with Him therefore releases us from the jurisdiction of the Law.

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. (Romans 7:4-6)

What is Grace, then? I look to Paul's letter to Titus for the definition of God's Grace which relates to the "newness of the Spirit" the apostle revealed in the sixth verse of Romans 7 above. I'm in agreement that Grace governs how we serve the Lord once we are alive in Christ.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds. (Titus 2:11-14)

The grace of God can be therefore be understood to mean that God Himself instructs us as opposed to the "letter that kills," that righteous penalty of the Law exacted upon every transgressor. The Law condemned us to death. However, those who died cannot be slain!

A pity that some didn't read the OP.

It's just reasonable, nothing special, to read before responding isn't it?

One thing : the death we die with Christ is physical death, hence how the body of sin is done away with Romans 6:6. Without that physical death, a believing Jew would not be exempted from his obligation to serve by the Law.

"How are we dead? I don't see it."

He also teaches we are raised and seatesbwith Christ into heavenly places. Where is the chair? lol

 

[Shattered]

One thing : the death we die with Christ is physical death, hence how the body of sin is done away with Romans 6:6. Without that physical death, a believing Jew would not be exempted from his obligation to serve by the Law.

"How are we dead? I don't see it."

He also teaches we are raised and seatesbwith Christ into heavenly places. Where is the chair? lol

Your point regarding physical death is valid though seeing as how I was a Gentile (a wild branch) grafted to the Vine by my adoption as a son in Christ, I only learned about the Law afterward. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was put away by virtue of this adoption (there is no Jew nor Greek in Him) but it's good to remember this distinction because Paul addresses those who knew the Law a number of times in his letters.

Indeed, we who are in Christ are seated with Him in the heavenly places. That's a headspinner! Where is Christ Himself seated? At the right hand of our Father upon His throne. Behold heads spinning everywhere like tops if the implications are sufficiently grasped...

 

[GracePeace]

Your point regarding physical death is valid though seeing as how I was a Gentile (a wild branch) grafted to the Vine by my adoption as a son in Christ, I only learned about the Law afterward. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was put away by virtue of this adoption (there is no Jew nor Greek in Him) but it's good to remember this distinction because Paul addresses those who knew the Law a number of times in his letters.

Indeed, we who are in Christ are seated with Him in the heavenly places. That's a headspinner! Where is Christ Himself seated? At the right hand of our Father upon His throne. Behold heads spinning everywhere like tops if the implications are sufficiently grasped...

I just meant we walk by faith not by sight lol

 

[Shattered]

I just meant we walk by faith not by sight lol

Yes, but it's more fun to have your head spin around while walking in faith.

Even better to watch the heads of others spinning at the same time!

 

[GracePeace]

Your point regarding physical death is valid though seeing as how I was a Gentile (a wild branch) grafted to the Vine by my adoption as a son in Christ, I only learned about the Law afterward. The distinction between Jew and Gentile was put away by virtue of this adoption (there is no Jew nor Greek in Him) but it's good to remember this distinction because Paul addresses those who knew the Law a number of times in his letters.

Indeed, we who are in Christ are seated with Him in the heavenly places. That's a headspinner! Where is Christ Himself seated? At the right hand of our Father upon His throne. Behold heads spinning everywhere like tops if the implications are sufficiently grasped...

You were never obligated to serve by Law so you were never released from the Law by death, but you were released from the body of sin Romans 6:6, Romans 7:24-25.