Paul speaks of this prophecy given by Adam, and he calls it a “great mystery”.
I am leading up to something but like to take small steps.
I am leading up to something but like to take small steps.
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You’re onto me, the Apostle Paul quotes this scripture and calls it a “great mystery”. The only time he uses this term. He says, “ I speak of a great mystery, but I speak of Christ and his church”. Interesting that this could be a great mystery and it’s perhaps the very first prophecy spoken of in the bible.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Here goes.....from my perspective.
First of all, I do not subscribe to any of Christendom's teachings because the Bible comes first for me rather than the musings of men.....most of which are way off the mark, and far from the truth as the Bible teaches it.
I believe what Jesus warned about in his parable of the "wheat and the weeds" so I am mindful to test every teaching to see if it has sound basis in scripture, and meshes with what Jesus taught his disciples. I am a former member of the Anglican church, and the whole "born again" issue was rarely mentioned....so it never became a big deal for me. That didn't mean that I was oblivious to it, but I sought the meaning from the Bible rather than conflicting "church" sources.
Being "born of water and spirit" is what Jesus demonstrated at his baptism. His obedient course led him to commit to a course that would lead to his death and being 'recreated' bodily (again) in his resurrection so as to return "home" to his Father on completion of his mission.
He went to prepare a place for those of his elect who will rule with him in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Their subjects will live on earth, where God put humans in the first place. God's first purpose did not vanish, but was put aside in order for all eventualities to come to the surface and to be dealt with before he returns us all to the paradise he intended for us at the beginning. Adam lost it for all his children, but Christ gave his life to get it back for us. (Revelation 21:3-4)
At this juncture, I have to tell you that I am not a trinitarian. So Jesus is the son of God and not God incarnate. The scriptures never teach any equality of Father and son.
So to me, being "born again" has a totally different connotation to what most "born agains" believe. It has little to do with being able to speak in tongues or being slain in the spirit or whatever 'proof' they need to demonstrate God's presence among them.
I believe that the Bible explains it without the hocus pokus....
Christ and his relationship to his "church" are important topics for us to understand. Why are there so many arguments in these church denominations?
If they were all led by God's spirit, they would all agree.....but since they don't, what are we to conclude? The Bible answers that very clearly, but most who subscribe to Christendom's views would roundly disagree, because it would mean that they are WWWRRROOONNNGGG! Heaven forbid!
My answer to that would be a resounding....NO!!!
Christ's judgment will mean rejection for the "many" who put store in their own versions of Christianity. (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus is not interested in their excuses.
He said "few" are on the road to life....that means the "many" are going in the opposite direction. (Matthew 7:13-14)
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Ah, the "sacred mystery"..... "And Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12 For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
The 'mystery' was about the Kingdom of God, which is the relationship between Jesus and his "bride".....those of his elect, who would be taken to heaven to rule with him. (Hebrews 3:1; Colossians 1:26-27)
"...that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and that they would attain to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself".
There were many mysteries that needed revealing once Christ came and God's holy spirit was operative upon him. But not until Pentecost did God reveal to his elect what was to come in unveiling the sacred mystery.
The Bible's first prophesy was uttered by God in response to Adam's sin (Genesis 3:15) but the players in this mystery remained unknown for centuries. Only when Jesus came to begin his ministry did the mystery begin unfolding....there was to be enmity between God's seed and Satan's seed which would culminate with Jesus being dealt a temporary heel wound but eventually the devil being dealt a fatal head wound. It was such a long range prophesy that is still not complete. But we know who the players are now, and what the Kingdom is going to accomplish for earth's inhabitants. This is the "good news of the Kingdom" that Jesus taught us to preach. (Matthew 24:14)
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
Here goes.....from my perspective.
First of all, I do not subscribe to any of Christendom's teachings because the Bible comes first for me rather than the musings of men.....most of which are way off the mark, and far from the truth as the Bible teaches it.
I believe what Jesus warned about in his parable of the "wheat and the weeds" so I am mindful to test every teaching to see if it has sound basis in scripture, and meshes with what Jesus taught his disciples. I am a former member of the Anglican church, and the whole "born again" issue was rarely mentioned....so it never became a big deal for me. That didn't mean that I was oblivious to it, but I sought the meaning from the Bible rather than conflicting "church" sources.
Being "born of water and spirit" is what Jesus demonstrated at his baptism. His obedient course led him to commit to a course that would lead to his death and being 'recreated' bodily (again) in his resurrection so as to return "home" to his Father on completion of his mission.
He went to prepare a place for those of his elect who will rule with him in his Kingdom. (Revelation 20:6) Their subjects will live on earth, where God put humans in the first place. God's first purpose did not vanish, but was put aside in order for all eventualities to come to the surface and to be dealt with before he returns us all to the paradise he intended for us at the beginning. Adam lost it for all his children, but Christ gave his life to get it back for us. (Revelation 21:3-4)
At this juncture, I have to tell you that I am not a trinitarian. So Jesus is the son of God and not God incarnate. The scriptures never teach any equality of Father and son.
So to me, being "born again" has a totally different connotation to what most "born agains" believe. It has little to do with being able to speak in tongues or being slain in the spirit or whatever 'proof' they need to demonstrate God's presence among them.
I believe that the Bible explains it without the hocus pokus....
Christ and his relationship to his "church" are important topics for us to understand. Why are there so many arguments in these church denominations?
If they were all led by God's spirit, they would all agree.....but since they don't, what are we to conclude? The Bible answers that very clearly, but most who subscribe to Christendom's views would roundly disagree, because it would mean that they are WWWRRROOONNNGGG! Heaven forbid!
My answer to that would be a resounding....NO!!!
Christ's judgment will mean rejection for the "many" who put store in their own versions of Christianity. (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus is not interested in their excuses.
He said "few" are on the road to life....that means the "many" are going in the opposite direction. (Matthew 7:13-14)
You wrote, "First of all, I do not subscribe to any of Christendom's teachings".
Obviously you are putting your personal idea of Christianity out there while denigrating the opinions of everyone else. So you are guilty of the same "crime" of which you accuse others. You set yourself above and beyond the Body of Christ, your brothers and sisters. Why do you expect others to accept your opinion?
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Well, actually I said that my post was from my perspective.....I came out of Christendom many years ago because I studied the Bible very carefully and discovered that 95% of what the churches teach is actually not what the Bible says. The “weeds” (foretold by Jesus) have obscured so many Bible truths by overlaying pagan concepts onto them, and leading people away from God, rather than to him. They also have much blood on their hands. (Isaiah 1:15)
Read my signature....
I am a member of a global brotherhood of Christians who all hold the same beliefs in common without dissension in every nation on earth. We are all Bible students who worship our God without mindless ritual or repetitive prayers that are recited by rote. We take responsibility for our own salvation; not relying on others to know everything for us. We do not see Jesus as God incarnate because the very thought of it is ridiculous.
If Jesus was God, he could not die.....and if he did not die we are not saved.
The worship of the first Christians was simple and without all the trappings that Christendom has added over the centuries. The “weeds” are everything that Jesus said they would be.....like the Pharisees of his day who were false teachers who make others 'subjects for gehenna more so than themselves'. IMO they have completely lost the plot if they think that the divided mess that they have become, honors God or his son in any way.
Those in Christendom who have transformed the one God of Israel into a freakish character with three heads are not my 'brothers and sisters' because they do not worship the same God as I choose to.
It is not my concern how people respond to what I say, but it is my responsibility to tell the truth as I understand it, and to allow others to make up their own minds about it. That is based on John 6:65....where Jesus says "no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
I have faith in that. The Father invites only those who teach the truth. I leave that to him.
Jim B
Well-Known Member
"It is not my concern how people respond to what I say, but it is my responsibility to tell the truth as I understand it, and to allow others to make up their own minds about it." Fair enough. Of course anyone in their right mind says the same thing.
You also wrote that you have studied the Bible very carefully and discovered that 95% of what the churches teach is actually not what the Bible says. I'm not sure which churches you have been to but those I have attended teach directly from the Bible so anyone can consider if what they say is in line with Biblical teaching or not.
You do not see Jesus as God incarnate because the very thought of it is ridiculous -- to you. "For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be saved through him. The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God." John 3:16-18
You also wrote that if Jesus was God, he could not die...and if He did not die we are not saved. But He did die: "Then Jesus, calling out with a loud voice, said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!” And after he said this he breathed his last." (a euphonism for dying) Luke 23:46 He clearly did die.
I agree that the worship of the first Christians was simple and without all the trappings that Christendom has added over the centuries. This particularly applies to the Catholic denomination.
Where does it say that "those in Christendom have transformed the one God of Israel into a freakish character with three heads"? I don't know where that bizarre distortion occurs. Can you point out where?
You wrote that "it is not my concern how people respond to what I say, but it is my responsibility to tell the truth as I understand it, and to allow others to make up their own minds about it." Fine. You have stated what you believe, but I believe a) what the Bible says and b) whether what people say agrees with the Bible. Your post clearly doesn't agree with Scripture.
Sola sciptura.
Behold
Well-Known Member
To become a "christian" is to be spiritually birthed by the Holy Spirit.
You've heard the term "born again"?
This term : is defining how you become A Christian.
How does this Happen?
The Spirit of God, causes your spirit, to become in spiritual union with God's Spirit.
So, thats the technical explanation., and the final result is that you become a SON of God.
Behold
Well-Known Member
The Holy Spirit, that you are talking about, is the Spirit of Christ, and He does join Himself to your Spirit.
This is to become "One with God"...."in Christ".......>"born again"...Spiritually....as a SON of God.
This is to become a : CHRISTian.........
See it?
@Aunty Jane. your quote [We do not see Jesus as God incarnate because the very thought of it is ridiculous.
If Jesus was God, he could not die.....and if he did not die we are not saved.]
Philippians 2 AMP
.5 Have this same attitude in yourselves which was in Christ Jesus [look to Him as your example in selfless humility], 6 who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. 8 After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.
The bible tells us that he came from heaven and went back to heaven...
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
If he were just an ordinary man, he would not have descended from heaven. This indicates a life prior to being born into the world in the form of a man.
And again the bible says Hebrews 1
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.
Where in the bible does the Word state this about any other other human "the radiance of God's glory, an exact expression of his nature and sustaining all things through his powerful word."
and we can go on....
If Jesus was God, he could not die.....and if he did not die we are not saved.]
Philippians 2 AMP
.5 Have this same attitude in yourselves which was in Christ Jesus [look to Him as your example in selfless humility], 6 who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. 8 After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.
The bible tells us that he came from heaven and went back to heaven...
John 3:13
13 No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life.
If he were just an ordinary man, he would not have descended from heaven. This indicates a life prior to being born into the world in the form of a man.
And again the bible says Hebrews 1
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact expression of His nature, sustaining all things by His powerful word. After making purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. 4 So He became higher in rank than the angels, just as the name He inherited is superior to theirs.
Where in the bible does the Word state this about any other other human "the radiance of God's glory, an exact expression of his nature and sustaining all things through his powerful word."
and we can go on....
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
When I became disillusioned with the church in which I was raised, (due in large part to their blatant hypocrisy) I investigated many churches and used the same criteria as I used on my own.
I knew Jesus said to be “no part of the world” (John 17:16, John 18:36) but every time the world held some kind of celebration or commemoration, (either religious or political) the churches gave it their full support....and of course the commercial world benefited more than anyone. The churches supported the wars and the political decisions of their nations without regard for whether their “enemy” was in fact a Christian “brother”......and even sent their clergy to the battle front to salve the consciences of those who did the killing, and gave them assurance that God was on their side.....in view of Matthew 5:43-44, they were doing the opposite of what Jesus taught his disciples to do.....when Peter drew his sword to defend his master on the night of his arrest, what did Jesus tell him by way of a rebuke?
Matthew 26:52...
“Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take up the sword will perish by the sword.“
Why did Jesus tell his apostles to buy swords when they had never needed them before? So that he could demonstrate that even though they were armed, they would not resort to violence. Peter’s actions gave him an opportunity to demonstrate that, and he offered no resistance to those sent to arrest him.
If we replace the word “sword” with the name of any weapon used to kill other human beings, we get the same message from Jesus. The only “sword” Christians are to wield is “the sword of the spirit”...the word of God.
Ephesians 6:11-18...
“Put on the complete suit of armor from God so that you may be able to stand firm against the crafty acts of the Devil. . . .For this reason take up the complete suit of armor from God, so that you may be able to resist in the wicked day and, after you have accomplished everything, to stand firm. . . . .with the belt of truth fastened around your waist, wearing the breastplate of righteousness. . . . Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word..."
The "suit of armor" is spiritual and is our only defense against satan and his minions....the only offensive weapon we have is also spiritual....God's word.
People assume things about the words used in the Bible because they have been taught to “see” things through a very distorted lens IMO. I too viewed things that way until I began to see through the ‘truths’ I had been taught....I found none of them to be true under scrutiny when examined in the light of the whole Bible....I was actually shocked to see how far the "church" has strayed form Christ's teachings....but it was foretold. The "church" (of whatever denomination you choose) pretends it never happened.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Since an immortal cannot die...and Jesus clearly did (otherwise the redemption was not completed) this in itself proves that Jesus is not God.
To be "fully man and fully God" at the same time is like trying to blend two opposites. How can a mortal human, subject to death, at the same time be an immortal God who cannot die? It is this concept that is illogical. God is never illogical.
When Jesus returned to heaven to his Father, (after spending 40 days fortifying his disciples for the difficult days ahead) the apostle John was later given his revelation, which was passed down through a chain of command....
Revelation 1:1-2...
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw.”
God gave the revelation to Jesus who passed it on to John by means of an angel.
Can you tell me why, even in heaven God needs to give his son instructions? Where is the equality that the trinitarians speak of? And where is the Holy Spirit on the many occasions where the Father and son are spoken of, but the third “person” is invariably missing. (John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
If Jesus is always pictured at God’s right hand, why is there no mention of the Holy Spirit ever being at his left?
Can you tell me why Jesus calls his Father “my God” even in heaven? (Revelation 3:12)
There are so many unanswered questions....when you raise them, all you hear are excuses, and a lot of tap dancing to make things fit.
Jesus does not accept excuses for teaching lies to people. (Matthew 7:21-23) He proved that by how he addressed the Pharisees. (John 8:44; Matthew 23:33) Christendom is a mirror image of first century Judaism....its the same kind of corruption because of adopting beliefs and doctrines from satanic paganism. (Matthew 15:7-9)
We can find trinities of gods in many pagan religions, but not in the other two “Abrahamic” faiths.
There was no trinity in first century Christianity.....it was introduced very gradually over a long period of time and only became “church” doctrine in the 4th century. How does God become a trinity over 300 years after Christ’s death? Someone sowed “weeds” in the same field as the “wheat”. (Matthew 13:24-30; 36-42) Did no one notice? History tells the sad and sorry tale of Christendom’s defection from the truth of God’s word.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
We have all seen the very distinctive garments worn by many denominations of clergy but we have to ask why they are worn in the first place?
Did Jesus wear distinctive clothing to identify himself as different or superior to his disciples? Since Judas had to identify him with a kiss, it is obvious that he dressed like the common man. These garments are worn to elevate the clergy above their flocks.....just like the Pharisees did in Jesus day. (Matthew 23:9-13)
The ‘mother’ church has many daughters...all of whom took the core teachings of this monstrous counterfeit with them when they left 'home' to start their own families....the trinity...immortality of the soul...and hellfire (among other things) were retained.....none of which are taught in God’s word if you read carefully and understand that Jesus was Jewish and he held no such beliefs because they were not contained in the Hebrew Scriptures. These were the only scriptures he used. The Christian scriptures were written after his death.
You only have to listen to those who try to explain the trinity to know how bizarre it really is.
The “church” who formulated the doctrine claim there are three “gods” in one head. “God the Father”....”God the Son”...and “God the Holy Spirit”....three “gods” that are not spoken about together in any passage of scripture.
Then you have those who are not comfortable with that explanation so they try to water it down to be “three persons” in one “godhead”. Yet the word “godhead” was actually made up by trinitarians. It is a translation of a word that means “divine nature”. No one can dispute that God’s son was the divine image of his Father, and that he was divinely authorized to carry out his mission. But ‘divinity’ is not ‘deity’ as Jesus demonstrated to the Jews who accused him of blasphemy....
John 10: 31-36....
“Once again the Jews picked up stones to stone him. Jesus replied to them: “I displayed to you many fine works from the Father. For which of those works are you stoning me?” The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified— do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”
Jesus had a prime opportunity to reveal his true identity as God Almighty....the Jews were going to stone him anyway.....and yet what did he say? That Jehovah himself called the human judges in Israel “gods” because they were divinely authorized by him to judge his people. So calling Jesus a “god”, was not saying that he was a deity, but divinely authorized for the mission which God had “sent” him to carry out.
The Greek word “theos” is used for any powerful god-like personage....the Greek gods as well as satan the devil. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
My post is my belief, achieved through many years of careful study, but outside of the “box” that Christendom has created....which is what I see as a prison that holds its captives by keeping them fed the same lies that have not altered for many centuries.
The truth was lost for a very long time but in his prophesies on “the time of the end” Daniel told us that in this time period God would “cleaned, whiten and refine” his people. An abundance of knowledge was to be available at this time so that a separation could take place between the “wheat and the weeds”. With all that is taking place right now, we can see the whole system going down very soon.
Only those who have accepted the ‘cleansing and refining’ will make it through the final judgment.
Matthew 7:21-23 shows us that simply claiming Jesus as our “Lord”, is meaningless unless we are “doing the will of the Father”.....that is not being entangled in the doctrine that has masked who the Father is...nor is it being led into doing things that the Father condemns....like bloodshed or being involved in this world politics. Knowing who is ruling the world, we can see his stamp on everything. (1 John 5:19)
We all have to make our own decisions about how we worship, and who we worship, so that when the end comes, we will be in no doubt about the road we chose. (Matthew 7:13-14)
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
lol...you are a scream AJ....you really do have an interesting opinion of yourself!
Angelina, I would not take for granted or lightly, scripture you wrote/write here as having the same theme or message in all of them. Namely, that Jesus is God.
Look at Philippians again for a moment...
Paul wrote to the Philippians under duress in prison. One of his key messages was for the believer to sustain themselves in Christ by having his mind. Paul was not writing to say that Jesus was God as many persist in preaching. He never considered this subject or this would-be astonishing news because he never thought that Jesus, the Son, was God his Father. His letters and messages would be all meaningless if he did. And I would wager he would have written this letter quite differently.
In Philippians 2:5 Paul says we are to attain and maintain the mind of Christ by allowing his spirit to dominate us. We can never have the exact same exact mind of Christ as we can never have the exact mind of God! And Jesus could not have the exact same mind of God his Father as well. He could allow his Father to possess him however, as we should allow the spirit of Christ to rule and possess our own minds. This is the entire main message of Paul in this Chapter 2. - allow the spirit of Christ to possess us as we yield our own will and become a servant of Christ as Christ was a servant, the same for God, his Father, who is also our Father.
Jesus lived as a humble servant of God, his Father. He learned to yield his own mind and will over to him over time, from youth. And thus Jesus became and possessed a form of God's mind, not his complete and exact same mind of course. That would be impossible. Jesus was and is today only a facsimile although a true close match of his Father's divine nature and mind none the less.
And therefore his Father gave Jesus a form of his mind as a human could understand it. Jesus therefore grasped and used this mind and openly considered equality only in a form or image of his Father's divine mind, and not with his actual divine mind of the one true God.
And Christ therefore considered himself an equal with his Father and never truly attempted or considered himself to be the same as his Father in intellect or mind. Paul was simply saying here that Jesus had a human limited mind completely formed and accessed by his Father, and he never had the divine supernatural unlimited infinite mind of God.
We should obtain a close copy or image of Christ's mind within us. And we also then can claim openly, equality with Christ, possessing a close true copy of his mind and spirit, as Christ has and was given the same to him by his Father.
Chapter 2, Verse 11 says that Jesus the Messiah is Lord to/for the glory of God the Father.
If Paul wrote these words and he did, he definitely did not realize he was saying that Jesus was God himself. Yet there are folks who would prefer to either ignore this verse completely or vehemently state abruptly, without question, that it means Jesus is God.
I could also address Hebrews the same way, as you cited although I will not....
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Hello Angelina, these scriptures are very important and depending on the translation used, we can glean the truth from them.
I like to use the Greek Interlinear so that I can get more of an idea about what the original language tells us.
I can see right away that the translation you have used uses explanations that are not necessarily contained in the original verses.
I will give you an example....
Philippians 2:5-11 from the Mounce Interlinear says...
Your hymeis attitude phroneō toward one another should be the same houtos as kai that hos of en Christ Christos Jesus Iēsous, 6 who hos, although he was hyparchō in en the form morphē of God theos, did hēgeomai not ou regard hēgeomai equality isos with God theos a thing to be eimi grasped harpagmos, 7 but alla emptied kenoō himself heautou, taking on lambanō the form morphē of a servant, being born ginomai in en the likeness homoiōma of man anthrōpos. And kai being found heuriskō in appearance schēma as hōs a man anthrōpos 8 he humbled tapeinoō himself heautou, becoming ginomai obedient hypēkoos to the point mechri of death thanatos, even de death thanatos on a cross stauros! "
You can see from the English translation that you used, that the inclusions contained in that translation use suggestions to imply certain things that are not expressly stated.
Please compare.....
Philippians 2 AMP
.5 Have this same attitude in yourselves which was in Christ Jesus [look to Him as your example in selfless humility], 6 who, although He existed in the form and unchanging essence of God [as One with Him, possessing the fullness of all the divine attributes—the entire nature of deity], did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped or asserted [as if He did not already possess it, or was afraid of losing it]; 7 but emptied Himself [without renouncing or diminishing His deity, but only temporarily giving up the outward expression of divine equality and His rightful dignity] by assuming the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men [He became completely human but was without sin, being fully God and fully man]. 8 After He was found in [terms of His] outward appearance as a man [for a divinely-appointed time], He humbled Himself [still further] by becoming obedient [to the Father] to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Do you see a problem there? All that is in RED is added. We are not to add to the word of God by inserting things that are not stated or have no evidence of being true. We have no authority to do that. Reading the Bible as it was written is important so that we do not incorporate things from someone else's interpretation of the words....the Bible speaks for itself. A thorough study of it will prove this.
No one is suggesting that Jesus was just an ordinary man.....he was anything but ordinary.....and yet he was still a mortal human....capable of dying the same death as Adam......which is something God could never do. Mere humans could never kill an immortal God.
We know that Jesus had a pre-human existence, because he said so. But what role did "the Word" have with God before he "became flesh"? (John 1:14)
His title gives us a clue. "The Word" (ho Logos) is a title meaning, "one who speaks God's words"....and from the beginning of creation the pre-human Jesus was God's spokesman. We also know that he is unique as God's "only begotten son" (monogenes) He is the only direct creation of his God and father...and he was given the privilege of bringing all things into existence, fashioning creation under his Father's instructions. (Colossians 1:15-17; Proverbs 8:30-31, Genesis 1:26)
In order to be "only begotten" (a word used in scripture to denote an only child, not just Jesus) he needed a 'begetter' who caused his existence...one who existed before him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 1:3-4...NASB...
"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they."
He is "the radiance of God's glory", which means he is a reflection of it.....and "the exact representation of His nature".....so what is a representation? According to Strongs, the word is "charaktēr" which means...
- "the instrument used for engraving or carving
- the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it
- a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression
- the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile."
"He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, to the extent that He has inherited a more excellent name than they."
Jesus returned to heaven where he "sat down at God's right hand, having become better than the angels"? If Jesus was God incarnate how does that make any sense? Wasn't he always better than the angels if he was "fully God and fully man"? And how does God give himself a name more excellent than the angels have.....God's name has always been more excellent than the angels.
There are holes appearing in the fabric now....can you see them?
If you wish.....I am an avid Bible student, and have been for about 50 years. I research everything very thoroughly and have come to my conclusions after having left Christendom because they failed to pass this knowledge on to me. It was there in the Bible all along. If we allow it to speak for itself...it always does. When we try to make it say what it never did, it becomes a tangled web of deceit. And nothing makes sense.
To me, the Bible is one story.....it has a beginning, to explain life and how we got here and what God intended humans to do here on this unique planet. It also tells us right there in Genesis how we lost our paradise home and how God was going to get it back for us.
The middle is about the Messiah and Redeemer, and his credentials....his family lineage from Abraham, and the role of the nation of Israel leading to the Savior. Their failures teach us more about our relationship with God than their successes.
The end is about restoration of all that God intended at the beginning. (Isaiah 55:11) I see the conclusion fast approaching and the culmination of all the scriptures about to be realized. (Revelation 21:2-4) Its an amazing time to be alive....
This is about as laughable a comment as any seen on CB. So the JWs made Jesus into "a god" (John 1:1 NWT).
When people choose to be wilfully blind, they will believe anything. And this comment proves it.
@Aunty Jane You may not enjoy using the AMP bible but I find it enlightening as it gives shades of meaning and intent to a paragraph or words and phrases. I am sure you are already aware that the Amplified bible is not adding to the Word of God as you have professed above. However, placing amplification in parenthesis, brackets or using italics in after key notes, clearly show that such words are not explicitly contained in the original texts. The amplified bible enables the reader to comprehend meaning which was understood by readers of the original language.
It is not a perfect bible to say the least but my intent was to point out to you that Jesus humbled himself by not taking up his position as a part of the Godhead and in all his humanity, took up the cross and died as a man. God the Father raised him up from the dead and now sits on the righthand of God [The Father]
Your theology regarding Jesus as being created is not orthodox. Orthodox Christianity teaches us that "Jesus was personally identical with the eternally pre-existent Son of God or Logos. He did not come into existence as a new person around 5 BC but exists personally as the eternal Son of God. The first council of Niacea stated that - "there was never a time where he was not....
What actually shocks me is the idea that someone who calls themselves a Christian does not believe that Jesus the Son of man, the Son of God, is just a good man...but not part of the Godhead????
It is not a perfect bible to say the least but my intent was to point out to you that Jesus humbled himself by not taking up his position as a part of the Godhead and in all his humanity, took up the cross and died as a man. God the Father raised him up from the dead and now sits on the righthand of God [The Father]
Your theology regarding Jesus as being created is not orthodox. Orthodox Christianity teaches us that "Jesus was personally identical with the eternally pre-existent Son of God or Logos. He did not come into existence as a new person around 5 BC but exists personally as the eternal Son of God. The first council of Niacea stated that - "there was never a time where he was not....
What actually shocks me is the idea that someone who calls themselves a Christian does not believe that Jesus the Son of man, the Son of God, is just a good man...but not part of the Godhead????
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