Church Age

[101G]

I don't believe the Holy Spirit leaves the earth. But the Church leaves the earth to meet Christ in the air at the Rapture and before the Tribulation. The Holy Spirit does cease to hinder the mystery of iniquity to allow the man of sin to be revealed. (2 Thess. 2:1-12)

Stranger

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this, if Christ is returned, and we meet him in the air why a period of Tribulation?, is this not the first resurrection? for our Lord clearly states "AFTER" the tribulation he comes? Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

now if the Lord comes "AFTER" the tribulation, how can one have a rapture of the Church by Christ before the tribulation... especially when he comes "AFTER the tribulation?

I'll be looking for your response.

PICJAG.

 

[rockytopva]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.” – Isaac Newton

However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

I would say when it is all said and done Isaac Newton would have been closest to the date prediction. Noting the Christ Jesus could wrap everything up today! If I had to construct a timeline...

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the Lambs Book of Life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct, and if this is not the Lambs Book of Life, then why all the ado?

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I would look for the end of the Laodicean church age anytime between 2020-2060 AD, in which I believe will end in the rapture of the church. And again quoting Isaac Newton, "It may end later."

 

[rockytopva]

The earliest of end time prophecies was spoken by Enoch, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints!" - Jude 1:14 I would look for this after the tribulation. If we are not first called up (rapture) how are we going to return again to reign with Christ Jesus?

 

[Enoch111]

Enoch....could you point me to the scriptures you find support the rapture and just to qualify what i think you mean by the rapture; the sudden and instantaneous vanishing of people from the face of the earth denoting the return of Jesus....is this correct?

That is exactly right. There are several passages which reveal this doctrine. But it seems that because many Christians do not understand the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture, they find it difficult to believe such a doctrine (just as the apostles were reluctant to believe in the resurrection of Christ until seeing was believing).

God's plan of salvation includes three aspects: (1) justification, (2) sanctification, and (3) glorification (Rom 8:29,30).

No matter how obedient and faithful Christians are on earth, they continue to have the old Adamic nature ("the flesh") within. Therefore no one is sinlessly perfect. But God desires that every child of God should not only be sinlessly perfect, but purged from the old nature, as well as the old corruptible body, so that they are an exact replica of Christ ("conformed to the image of His Son"). And that is why there is a Resurrection/Rapture at the end of the Church Age -- "when the fulness of the Gentiles be come in").

The key passage is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18:

1. THE DEATH OF THE BELIEVER IS NOT HOPELESS
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [have died], that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

2. THE SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL COME WITH CHRIST FROM HEAVEN
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus [those who died] will God bring with him.

3. THE LIVING SAINTS WILL NOT PRECEDE THE ONES WHO DIED
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [those who died].

4. THE LORD WILL COME PERSONALLY FROM HEAVEN FOR HIS BRIDE
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God...

5. ALL THE SAINTS WHO DIED WILL BE RESURRECTED
...and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [Note: according to 1 Corinthians 15, this is in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye]

6. THE LIVING SAINTS WILL BE RAPTURED AND GLORIFIED
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [Note: for the glorification of the saints see 1 Corinthians 15. Note also that the Lord comes in the air and does not descend to earth]

7. THIS DOCTRINE IS FOR THE COMFORT OF THE CHURCH
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. [Note: The Resurrection/Rapture is NOT connected to any Tribulation period, since it has always been IMMINENT and is for comfort, not discomfort]

 

[Rita]

@Rita, Indeed, this would be my understanding of dispensational distinctives, remembering also that the Word of God is now complete (I would also see the context of the original sign gifts in Acts as being in the transitional Apostolic period when the Word of God was not yet complete.)

If you mean you believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ended with the apostles then our understanding is different x

 

[farouk]

If you mean you believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit ended with the apostles then our understanding is different x

@Rita: Defining the gifts of the Spirit - Galatians and the fruit of the Spirit, come to mind - and the sheer essential power of the Holy Spirit, e.g., in Romans 8, working in Christian doctrine and experience - and (on the other hand) certain manifestations which occurred in transitional Apostolic times when Scripture was not yet complete: these matters of definition are relevant as well.

 

[Rita]

Hi Farouk,
I believe ALL the gifts , as stated in I corinthians 12-14 are as active now as they were in the times of the apostles...........
Rita x

 

[quietthinker]

2. THE SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL COME WITH CHRIST FROM HEAVEN
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus [those who died] will God bring with him.

If they which sleep in Jesus [those who died] how can they be in heaven? When Lazarus died Jesus used the term 'asleep' for his condition, later qualifying it as 'dead'. Does that mean according to your understanding that Jesus called Lazarus back from Heaven? ....if so, Lazarus is strangely silent about it. One would think he'd have a considerable amount to say about it if that was the case particularly seeing he was a bit of a novelty and people came to check him out because they had heard about it.

3. THE LIVING SAINTS WILL NOT PRECEDE THE ONES WHO DIED
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep [those who died].

Again, how is it even possible for the living to precede those who have died if the dead are already in heaven?....besides, the text says they are asleep (present tense) when Jesus raises them from the dead..... and again, why do they need raising from the dead if they are already in Heaven?
Isn't this text telling us that the resurrected dead and those alive on earth when Jesus returns will meet him at the same time (together) one not preceding the other?

5. ALL THE SAINTS WHO DIED WILL BE RESURRECTED
...and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [Note: according to 1 Corinthians 15, this is in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye]

Again it's saying the same thing that the resurrected dead and the living believers with incur a change simultaneously and instantly. This is how the text you referred to reads in its entirety 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 KJV

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Again it begs the same question...if the believing dead are already in heaven or and are coming with the Lord at his return, why do they need to be resurrected from the dead?.... and if the living and the resurrected dead believers are to receive immortality at the same time as the text says, does that mean that your version of events has the believing dead in heaven with mortal bodies? when vs 50 says 'flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God'....or does it mean they need to enter their decayed frames in the grave before they receive immortal bodies at the resurrection? ...and that while in heaven with mortal bodies they are not yet in the Kingdom of God???

Further....if as the text says, vs 54, death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection does that mean according to your version of events that those in heaven that have died have bodies subject to death? ...and they come with Jesus with these skanky mortal bodies to go back into the grave to be called out of it again?? ...in order to leave their mortality behind??

...to continue....you affirmed that the Rapture will be a sudden instantaneous event yet vs 52 speaks not of the event of Jesus' return being instant ie, 'in the twinkling of an eye' but rather the change that will occur to both the living and the dead; the change from mortality to immortality.....this occurs at the last trump. At which trump do you say the Rapture will occur??

 

[Stranger]

not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this, if Christ is returned, and we meet him in the air why a period of Tribulation?, is this not the first resurrection? for our Lord clearly states "AFTER" the tribulation he comes? Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

now if the Lord comes "AFTER" the tribulation, how can one have a rapture of the Church by Christ before the tribulation... especially when he comes "AFTER the tribulation?

I'll be looking for your response.

PICJAG.

My understanding is this. The Rapture is part of the first resurrection. There are several resurrections in Scripture. All are either of the first, the believing, or the second, which is the resurrection of the unbelieving. The term 'first' should be viewed as an ordinal number as opposed to a cardinal number. It gives the position and not how many. So, any resurrection of believers is part of the first resurrection.

The Rapture is certainly Christ coming for His Church, but it is not the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. He does not come back to earth. He meets His Church in the air. And so the Church is with Christ during the 7 year Tribulation on earth.

At the end of the Tribulation, yes, Christ returns to the earth, to the Mount of Olives. That is the Second Coming.

You are correct in that the verses you give in (Matthew) pertain to the Second Coming. And they identify the time as after the Tribulation.

Stranger

 

[Earburner]

When does the church age end?? wouldn't the church age also be considered the age of grace??

the church age ending before the tribulation is key component in making the pre-trib theory work, I dont see it..

To me the church age is the age of Grace, and that is when Jesus is our salvation, anyone who puts Jesus as there Lord and savior is in the Church age, that does not end during tribulation, so my thought is the church age goes on into tribulation and does not end until the 1,000 rule begins??

what say you?? View attachment 9174

Most likely, you never thought of the "church age" as being symbolic of 2 Peter 3:8.
"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

 

[Earburner]

My understanding is this. The Rapture is part of the first resurrection. There are several resurrections in Scripture. All are either of the first, the believing, or the second, which is the resurrection of the unbelieving. The term 'first' should be viewed as an ordinal number as opposed to a cardinal number. It gives the position and not how many. So, any resurrection of believers is part of the first resurrection.

The Rapture is certainly Christ coming for His Church, but it is not the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. He does not come back to earth. He meets His Church in the air. And so the Church is with Christ during the 7 year Tribulation on earth.

At the end of the Tribulation, yes, Christ returns to the earth, to the Mount of Olives. That is the Second Coming.

You are correct in that the verses you give in (Matthew) pertain to the Second Coming. And they identify the time as after the Tribulation.

Stranger

It sounds to me like you do have an "understanding", but its a blending of religious speak.

Revelation 20[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Here is something you never thought of,
Who is the First Resurrection?

If you have been Born Again of His Holy Spirit, you are now a partaker of the (His) divine nature? 2 Peter 1:4

And if you are a partaker, then you have passed from the 2nd death to new Life, His!
1 John 5[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Romans 8[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did you happen to notice that the words "hath" and "have" are in the present tense?

 

[Rocky Wiley]

When the Church is raptured, that is the end of the Church Age, as well as the Age of Grace. God's judgments begin soon thereafter. That is why Scripture says that TODAY is the day of salvation.

The church is not raptured. When a believer dies physically, their soul goes right on to heaven.

The end comes when the tares are taken and burned.

Mat_13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat_13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

world is an age, so proper translation is end of this age.

 

[101G]

My understanding is this. The Rapture is part of the first resurrection. There are several resurrections in Scripture. All are either of the first, the believing, or the second, which is the resurrection of the unbelieving. The term 'first' should be viewed as an ordinal number as opposed to a cardinal number. It gives the position and not how many. So, any resurrection of believers is part of the first resurrection.

The Rapture is certainly Christ coming for His Church, but it is not the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. He does not come back to earth. He meets His Church in the air. And so the Church is with Christ during the 7 year Tribulation on earth.

At the end of the Tribulation, yes, Christ returns to the earth, to the Mount of Olives. That is the Second Coming.

You are correct in that the verses you give in (Matthew) pertain to the Second Coming. And they identify the time as after the Tribulation.

Stranger

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, are you saying that the Lord Jesus is coming back a third time to appear? the reason why I say this is your statement, "The Rapture is certainly Christ coming for His Church, but it is not the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. He does not come back to earth. He meets His Church in the air. And so the Church is with Christ during the 7 year Tribulation on earth". that makes no sense. he's coming but he's not here... no, no, no.

#1. the seconding coming is it, nothing else after, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". now are you saying that it is "TWO" seperate salvation? that's anti Bible. you said he will rapture the shurch, (which is salvation, ... right), but you said this is not the second coming, but the bible clearly say the seconding coming, his, Appearing is Salvation. read hebrews 9:28 again.

#2. you said, "The Rapture is part of the first resurrection but is NOT the second coming". ok , scripture, Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years". this happens at christ second coming, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (this is the SECOND COMING).
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (this is the First resurrection).
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (again this is the second xoming)
1 Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

so either you have TWO resurrection, or TWO raptures, meaning a third coming. but the bible is clear, he returns to appear only twice. that's bible. so if you have any other scripture showing more that two Coming in apperance, please post the scriptures.

Thanks in advance.

PICJAG.

 

[Stranger]

GINOLJC, to all.
First thanks for the reply, second, are you saying that the Lord Jesus is coming back a third time to appear? the reason why I say this is your statement, "The Rapture is certainly Christ coming for His Church, but it is not the Second Coming of Christ to the earth. He does not come back to earth. He meets His Church in the air. And so the Church is with Christ during the 7 year Tribulation on earth". that makes no sense. he's coming but he's not here... no, no, no.

#1. the seconding coming is it, nothing else after, Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". now are you saying that it is "TWO" seperate salvation? that's anti Bible. you said he will rapture the shurch, (which is salvation, ... right), but you said this is not the second coming, but the bible clearly say the seconding coming, his, Appearing is Salvation. read hebrews 9:28 again.

#2. you said, "The Rapture is part of the first resurrection but is NOT the second coming". ok , scripture, Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years". this happens at christ second coming, 1 Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (this is the SECOND COMING).
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (this is the First resurrection).
1 Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (again this is the second xoming)
1 Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

so either you have TWO resurrection, or TWO raptures, meaning a third coming. but the bible is clear, he returns to appear only twice. that's bible. so if you have any other scripture showing more that two Coming in apperance, please post the scriptures.

Thanks in advance.

PICJAG.

No, I explained what I said. I didn't say a 'third' time you did. Whether God saves the Church, or God saves Israel, or God saves the Tribulation saints, it is all salvation.

Go back and read what I said. The 1st resurrection is all resurrections of the believing. The number '1st' is ordinal not cardinal. (Rev. 20:4-5) is a description of the 1st resurrection. Johns statement at the beginning of (20:5) speaks to the 2nd resurrection of the unbelieving. He will enlarge on that in (20:7-15).

Again, understand that the term 1st is ordinal not cardinal. You have several resurrections. They are all part of either the 1st or the 2nd.

You have the Rapture which is the Church being called out to meet with Christ in the air. It is not Christ coming to the earth.

You have the Second Coming which speaks to Christ coming to the earth. The verses you use in (1 Thess 4:13-18) speak to the Rapture, not the Second Coming. Thus your confusion.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

It sounds to me like you do have an "understanding", but its a blending of religious speak.

Revelation 20[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Here is something you never thought of,
Who is the First Resurrection?

If you have been Born Again of His Holy Spirit, you are now a partaker of the (His) divine nature? 2 Peter 1:4

And if you are a partaker, then you have passed from the 2nd death to new Life, His!
1 John 5[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Romans 8[9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Did you happen to notice that the words "hath" and "have" are in the present tense?

Well, as far as I can tell, I agree with what you have said. So what is this 'blending of religious speak' you speak of.

Stranger

 

[Enoch111]

The church is not raptured.

When someone boldly denies what is clearly stated in the Bible, there is no need to go any further. I believe you also deny other Bible truths.

 

[Enoch111]

If they which sleep in Jesus [those who died] how can they be in heaven?

Sleep is a metaphor for death. Did Stephen sleep or was he in Heaven even though it says he fell asleep? Please read the account of Stephen's death carefully to clear your mind. All the saints who have passed on are in Heaven, and they go there the moment they die.

Again, how is it even possible for the living to precede those who have died if the dead are already in heaven?

Did you not read what was quoted from Scripture?

2. THE SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL COME WITH CHRIST FROM HEAVEN
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus [those who died] will God bring with him.

At the Resurrection/Rapture Christ brings with Himself the souls and spirits of the saints who have died, and reunites them with their immortal glorified bodies. And as the Bible says, the saints who are alive at that time DO NOT precede the ones who are resurrected. But all of this is momentary, if you had carefully studied 1 Corinthians 15.

The problem arises when people believe the false doctrine of Soul Sleep. But there are NO SOULS SLEEPING anywhere, neither in Heaven, nor in Hades, nor six feet under the ground.

 

[charity]

I am not aware of any scripture that supports this, there is scripture that says the Holly spirit has been restraining the evil one, and will no longer restrain him. Does not say the Holly Spirit leave us, how would people come to Christ then during the tribulation?

2 Thessalonians 2:7
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

Hello @Dave M,

I agree that the Holy Spirit does not leave when the event described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 takes place. However, I do not believe that it is the Holy Spirit that is being referred to in 2 Thessalonians 3:7.

I have just discussed this on another thread in reply#161 (link below)
Does the Holy Spirit prevent wicked from being revealed¿

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Rocky Wiley]

When someone boldly denies what is clearly stated in the Bible, there is no need to go any further. I believe you also deny other Bible truths.

Enoch111, don't be so quick to judge

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
The dead are those that are alive physically but dead spiritually.
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
When one believes they become alive and shall never die, spiritually. Their soul goes right on to heaven.

 

[Joseph77]

The problem arises when people believe the false doctrine of Soul Sleep. But there are NO SOULS SLEEPING anywhere, neither in Heaven, nor in Hades, nor six feet under the groun

No worries, or, maybe some.

What was sleeping when Jesus said to the people - "Don't weep, don't worry, they are asleep" (paraphrased)... ?

He never said their "soul" was sleeping, did He? (I don't think He ever referenced such a thing, did He, ever? )