Church Age

[101G]

One or more where ?

what is you talking about? I'm speaking of salvation.

this is exactly what another topice was saying, "is the strong man bound?",

PICJAG.

 

[quietthinker]

Sleep is a metaphor for death. Did Stephen sleep or was he in Heaven even though it says he fell asleep? Please read the account of Stephen's death carefully to clear your mind. All the saints who have passed on are in Heaven, and they go there the moment they die.

Did you not read what was quoted from Scripture?

2. THE SAINTS WHO HAVE DIED WILL COME WITH CHRIST FROM HEAVEN
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus [those who died] will God bring with him.

At the Resurrection/Rapture Christ brings with Himself the souls and spirits of the saints who have died, and reunites them with their immortal glorified bodies. And as the Bible says, the saints who are alive at that time DO NOT precede the ones who are resurrected. But all of this is momentary, if you had carefully studied 1 Corinthians 15.

The problem arises when people believe the false doctrine of Soul Sleep. But there are NO SOULS SLEEPING anywhere, neither in Heaven, nor in Hades, nor six feet under the ground.

The whole theory hinges on the interpretation of the word 'with' even though every other text describes the event as the dead being asleep and brought to life at the last trump when Jesus returns in the clouds and every eye will see him.
Now, what do we do with the word 'with'? how is that to be understood in the context?

 

[Stranger]

If you agree,...then when is the first resurrection?
Here is another clue:
Revelation 1[6] And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I have already explained the first resurrection.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

stranger are you really listing to yourself? 1 Thess 4:13-18 is not speaking of a rapture but the second coming, listen, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first". this is the FIRST RESURRECTION, and it's only 2 resurrection. and Christ comes the second time for the SAINTS/CHURCH. this is the ONLY resurrection of those in CHRIST who sleep, and those alive changed, ther is nothing before this, nor after this as to Christ.

now this, "1st is ordinal not cardinal." is just an excuse for the truth. 1st in resurection means just that Ordinal, and the 2nd resurrection is Ordinal, so there is no excuse. it's irrelevant as to how many/Cardinal are in both resurrection. so no that excuse want fly.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is speaking of Christ seconding coming, and not a rapture. and after the 1,000 years then the 2nd/Ordinal resurrection occures.

so try again,

PICJAG.

Concerning (1 Thess. 4:16-17), the statement in (16) 'the dead in Christ shall rise first' is in reference to the Rapture of the living saints in (17). Both the dead in Christ rising first, and then the living in Christ rising after that, is part of the first resurrection. Because they involve the believers.

Well, that the 'first resurrection' is an ordinal reference is important as there are more than two resurrections.

The Rapture is the Church called out. The Second Coming is Christ returning all the way to earth. (1 Thess. 4:13-18) is the Rapture.

Stranger

 

[101G]

Concerning (1 Thess. 4:16-17), the statement in (16) 'the dead in Christ shall rise first' is in reference to the Rapture of the living saints in (17). Both the dead in Christ rising first, and then the living in Christ rising after that, is part of the first resurrection. Because they involve the believers.

Well, that the 'first resurrection' is an ordinal reference is important as there are more than two resurrections.

The Rapture is the Church called out. The Second Coming is Christ returning all the way to earth. (1 Thess. 4:13-18) is the Rapture.

Stranger

Nope, not even close. forget any 2nd resurrection for right now, if the church is raptured out as you say, and that the rapture is not the second coming who then are these "SAVED" here in Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". now look at the verse carefully, Christ "beared" the sins of MANY, and these MANY look for his return. now who is these many here?.if the church has already been raptures out? .... welll...

PICJAG.

 

[Joseph77]

Confusion introduced long ago in men's traditions.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I was taught Wthis before, that the Holy Spirit leaves the earth sometime before the Great Tribulation. But if there is no Rapture before Christ comes back and sets up the millinial kingdom, I don't see that happening. Where does that teaching come from that the Holy Spirit leaves Believers during the Great Tribulation (or leaves earth). It is partly why I always believed in a Rapture, because the Holy Spirit is meant to be our guide and empower us. And God promised to never leave nor forsake us.

I kind of think it's when the Anti-Christ comes and declares himself to be the messiah....I don't think he can do that until the Holy Spirit is removed because the presence of the Holy Spirit is too powerful...it is light and where there is light there is no darkness...IMHO
I also think when Jesus comes then Holy Spirit will leave....kind of like when Jesus left the Holy Spirit came.....IMHO

 

[Timtofly]

It will be over in less than 3 years. The church missing some of that should not be that huge of a pill to swallow for all those anxious about missing God's judgment. But perhaps a few here will not have to leave with the church and can enjoy all that pain with the rest of the unbelievers, who knows?

 

[Heart2Soul]

If I had to pick an end time date I would go with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

“And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half.” –Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060.” – Isaac Newton

However… Isaac Newton notes…

“It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." –Isaac Newton

I would say when it is all said and done Isaac Newton would have been closest to the date prediction. Noting the Christ Jesus could wrap everything up today! If I had to construct a timeline...

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the Lambs Book of Life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct, and if this is not the Lambs Book of Life, then why all the ado?

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

I would look for the end of the Laodicean church age anytime between 2020-2060 AD, in which I believe will end in the rapture of the church. And again quoting Isaac Newton, "It may end later."

me too!

 

[Enoch111]

...every other text describes the event as the dead being asleep...

All those texts use sleep as a metaphor for death. We know from the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus that NO ONE sleeps after death. We also know from the death of Stephen that his soul and spirit were immediately welcomed into Heaven by Christ. After the resurrection of Christ, all the saints are in Heaven (Heb 12:22-24), and NO ONE SLEEPS IN HEAVEN. Christ is in Heaven, with the Father and the holy angels and all the saints of God.

Therefore when Scripture says that God will bring the saints who died "with" Him, it means exactly what it says. Jesus brings the souls and spirits of those who died back to earth for their resurrection at the Resurrection/Rapture, not at some other time.

1 CORINTHIANS 15: THE RAPTURE IS A MYSTERY

1. THE RAPTURE IS HIDDEN FROM THE WORLD (AND MANY CHRISTIANS)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed [transformed, perfected, and glorified]

2. THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE: MIRACULOUS AND SUPERNATURAL
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound... [Note: this is called "the trump of God" and has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet which heralds the wrath of God]

3. FIRST COMES THE RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS WHO DIED
...and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...

4. THEN COMES THE RAPTURE OF THOSE ALIVE AT THAT TIME
...and we shall be changed. [perfected, see 1 John 3:1-3]

5. ALL THE SAINTS WILL RECEIVE INCORRUPTIBLE, IMMORTAL BODIES
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[quietthinker]

I

All those texts use sleep as a metaphor for death. We know from the narrative of the Rich Man and Lazarus that NO ONE sleeps after death. We also know from the death of Stephen that his soul and spirit were immediately welcomed into Heaven by Christ. After the resurrection of Christ, all the saints are in Heaven (Heb 12:22-24), and NO ONE SLEEPS IN HEAVEN. Christ is in Heaven, with the Father and the holy angels and all the saints of God.

Therefore when Scripture says that God will bring the saints who died "with" Him, it means exactly what it says. Jesus brings the souls and spirits of those who died back to earth for their resurrection at the Resurrection/Rapture, not at some other time.

1 CORINTHIANS 15: THE RAPTURE IS A MYSTERY

1. THE RAPTURE IS HIDDEN FROM THE WORLD (AND MANY CHRISTIANS)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], but we shall all be changed [transformed, perfected, and glorified]

2. THE RESURRECTION/RAPTURE: MIRACULOUS AND SUPERNATURAL
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound... [Note: this is called "the trump of God" and has nothing to do with the 7th trumpet which heralds the wrath of God]

3. FIRST COMES THE RESURRECTION OF THE SAINTS WHO DIED
...and the dead shall be raised incorruptible...

4. THEN COMES THE RAPTURE OF THOSE ALIVE AT THAT TIME
...and we shall be changed. [perfected, see 1 John 3:1-3]

5. ALL THE SAINTS WILL RECEIVE INCORRUPTIBLE, IMMORTAL BODIES
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

I'm sorry Enoch, your answers here indicate you've either missed the points I made altogether in post no.28 or you haven't read them.

 

[Stranger]

Nope, not even close. forget any 2nd resurrection for right now, if the church is raptured out as you say, and that the rapture is not the second coming who then are these "SAVED" here in Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation". now look at the verse carefully, Christ "beared" the sins of MANY, and these MANY look for his return. now who is these many here?.if the church has already been raptures out? .... welll...

PICJAG.

Salvation is always by faith in Jesus Christ. Just because the Church and Israel are different bodies of believers doesn't mean both don't look for His return. The Church looks to the Rapture. Those during the Tribulation will look for His Second Coming.

Stranger

 

[101G]

Salvation is always by faith in Jesus Christ. Just because the Church and Israel are different bodies of believers doesn't mean both don't look for His return. The Church looks to the Rapture. Those during the Tribulation will look for His Second Coming.

Stranger

"the Church and Israel are different bodies of believers", error, 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit".

PICJAG.

 

[Timtofly]

I would like to point out that there are 7 thunderings that have not been put in writing in the Revelation. We do not know when the 144K are taken up, nor what is going to happen during the 7 thunderings. Jumping to too many conclusions is not wise. The church is not going to go through the trumpets and the thunderings. Keeping in step, the 144K and perhaps the whole house of Jacob will not go through the thunderings. We just do not know. It is after the period of the thunderings that the church, the 144K and who else God chooses during the thunderings will be coming with Christ to earth at the Second Coming. It is then and only then will Satan be given 3.5 years where the false prophet and image of Satan and Satan himself will be totally in charge, while those in Heaven watch. There are only 2 witnesses sent by God on the earth. They will stand in judgement for 3.5 years bringing judgment on whom they will. Revelation 11:3-6. The only way to overcome in this period is to have your head chopped off. Those who do will be raised from death to go into the last 1000 year reign of Christ. Revelation 20:4

 

[Stranger]

"the Church and Israel are different bodies of believers", error, 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit".

PICJAG.

That verse speaks to the Church alone. So?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

I have already explained the first resurrection.

Stranger

unfortunately you were most likely wrong, stranger

Concerning (1 Thess. 4:16-17), the statement in (16) 'the dead in Christ shall rise first' is in reference to the Rapture of the living saints in (17).

prolly not, ok

The Rapture is the Church called out. The Second Coming is Christ returning all the way to earth. (1 Thess. 4:13-18) is the Rapture

so, this is that, and that is this, but if you try and Quote any of that it all falls apart, see. It is a complete fabrication, interpreting via feelings imo. The Church is already "called out" right, leave the world. And Christ never left of course, I will never leave you nor forsake you, Galileans, why do you stand there looking up at the sky?

 

[bbyrd009]

we have a space program, Apollo, and Mercury before him, that explains where all that supposed moving around by "Christians" or "Christ" comes from, and we have two perfectly good roots for "rapture," neither one of them being harpazo. Go ask an american black person for the right frame to comprehend "caught up" in, imo, and run from ppl telling you that Yah is going to perform magic tricks "tomorrow"

 

[101G]

That verse speaks to the Church alone. So?

Stranger

GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. my, my, my, "That verse speaks to the Church alone". do you read and understand, 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit".


now, the COVENANT, .... of "BELIEVERS". Romans 4:17 "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Romans 4:18 "Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be".

Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (BINGO). and Christ is the HEAD of ... "HIS" Church which include all nations who believe, one body of believers.

Now the understanding,
Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (THAT WHICH IS CALLED THE CIRCUMCISION IN THE FLESH BY HANDS, THAT'S ALL ISRAEL, INCLUDING JUDAH.)
Ephesians 2:12 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (THAT COVENANT OF PROMISE IS IN THE ABRAHAM SEED... "CHRIST", WHO HOUSE INCLUDE THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH, AND ..... THE GENTILES), ALL WHO BELIEVE). BINGO.
Ephesians 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (ISRAEL and GENTILES ARE ONE BODY..... THE CHURCH).
Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Ephesians 2:17 "And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 2:18 "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

the "HOUSEHOLD" of God is the Church, (all who believe), and Peter being a Jew is in the Church/Household of God.1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

here Peter the apostle of God clearly states that he is of the House of God. and Peter is in the Church.

so stranger you still have no ground to stand on if you're saying that, "the Church and Israel are different bodies of believers", but all Israel will be saved UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES COME IN. it makes no difference what they believe now, they who are saved is one body. he is not coming for a piece of his body, and then later come and get the rest. his body is not a "now and Later" candy bar. have some now and get more later. NO, he's only coming in apperance, "TWICE", only two coming in flesh. the first as a babe who was in a manger, but the secoming in apperance when all eyes will see him, is as "KING".

so no, you have no scripture to support what you're claiming. so we suggest you look at your beliefs again, then come back and discuss.

be blessed,

PICJAG.

 

[Stan B]

Incorrect. The Church Age comes to a close BEFORE the Tribulation. You will not find the word "church" or "churches" between Revelation 6-18 (which includes the Tribulation and Great Tribulation periods).

The fact that the word church is not used, is a total non-issue! The congregation of the redeemed is mentioned many times in the Book of Revelation, and just because the word church is not used, we all know who they are. For instance, when the enormous congregation of redeemed are taken up into Heaven in the midst of the Tribulation, whether they are called church or something else doesn't change who they are!

"I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb". “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation. Rev 7:9-14

A rose by any other name . . . And that is when the church age ends and blindness is lifted from Israel!

 

[Stranger]

GINOLJC, first thanks for the reply. my, my, my, "That verse speaks to the Church alone". do you read and understand, 1 Corinthians 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit".


now, the COVENANT, .... of "BELIEVERS". Romans 4:17 "(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
Romans 4:18 "Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations; according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be".

Galatians 3:16 "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (BINGO). and Christ is the HEAD of ... "HIS" Church which include all nations who believe, one body of believers.

Now the understanding,
Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:11 "Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (THAT WHICH IS CALLED THE CIRCUMCISION IN THE FLESH BY HANDS, THAT'S ALL ISRAEL, INCLUDING JUDAH.)
Ephesians 2:12 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (THAT COVENANT OF PROMISE IS IN THE ABRAHAM SEED... "CHRIST", WHO HOUSE INCLUDE THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH, AND ..... THE GENTILES), ALL WHO BELIEVE). BINGO.
Ephesians 2:13 "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 2:14 "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (ISRAEL and GENTILES ARE ONE BODY..... THE CHURCH).
Ephesians 2:15 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Ephesians 2:16 "And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Ephesians 2:17 "And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
Ephesians 2:18 "For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

the "HOUSEHOLD" of God is the Church, (all who believe), and Peter being a Jew is in the Church/Household of God.1 Peter 4:17 "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"

here Peter the apostle of God clearly states that he is of the House of God. and Peter is in the Church.

so stranger you still have no ground to stand on if you're saying that, "the Church and Israel are different bodies of believers", but all Israel will be saved UNTIL THE FULLNESS OF THE GENTILES COME IN. it makes no difference what they believe now, they who are saved is one body. he is not coming for a piece of his body, and then later come and get the rest. his body is not a "now and Later" candy bar. have some now and get more later. NO, he's only coming in apperance, "TWICE", only two coming in flesh. the first as a babe who was in a manger, but the secoming in apperance when all eyes will see him, is as "KING".

so no, you have no scripture to support what you're claiming. so we suggest you look at your beliefs again, then come back and discuss.

be blessed,

PICJAG.

I know who the Church is. So?

Stranger