Church Bashing

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marks

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Or promised?

Justification is the forensic declaration that the person justified is "in the right", a member of the family of God. The Holy Spirit is our down payment on the final state after our resurrection when Christ returns. Sometimes healing occurs in this life. Sometimes it does not. I don't know why.
Justification is to "render righteous".

Sometimes it's used of a judicial declaration, however, in rebirth it describes the death and burial and resurrection process by which we are separated from our sins, from our sinful flesh, and made new, not only declared righteous, but actually righteous.

Tell me about the new man, if you would.

Ephesians 4:20-24 KJV
20) But ye have not so learned Christ;
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

2 Corinthians 5:16-19 KJV
16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 3:9-14 KJV
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Romans 12:1-2 KJV
1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

In the flesh the echoes of the old man remain in the patterns of the brain, the default state of the mind. We renew our minds to Christ, as we use our spiritual minds, made like unto Christ.

Our death is real, our life is real, our new creation is real, our righteousness is real, our communion with God is real, everything is exactly like the Bible says. Only, be it to you according to your faith.

I can't help you with your faith, except to share God's Word with you, so I can happily do that this entire day, should you wish, to show that this teaching is directly stated in the Bible in numerous places, that there is nothing that contridicts this, and that this truth is truly liberating. This is our liberation, our justification.

We are completely free, the flesh is truly powerless, only, be it to you according to your faith. And why some and not others, we are all different, and God knows the best way. In my case, He gave me that sanctification, then removed it after I asked to be able to share it with others.

I'm a mess, a true wreck of a human. But I know this is true. This is the power of a new life in Christ. It's real.

Much love!
 
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marks

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Actually, we ARE promised that we will become actually righteous, but when Jesus comes back.
Our bodies will be transformed, but our spirits are already now born from God. So we won't be in conflict with our flesh after that time, but even now faith can overcome the flesh. And it truly can. We have the Spirit of Christ in us, giving life to our spirit, that's the kind of life we have. And that kind of life will overcome the old man, no contest! But if we don't believe this is real, we don't live that way.

Much love!
 

marks

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I totally agree! It is the righteousness of Jesus that comes to us through trust. But it is ACTUAL righteousness in the inside of our cup. It’s not all imaginary. Make no mistake, a righteous man DOES what is right.
How do you clean the inside of the cup?

Much love!
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Justification is to "render righteous". Holify.

Sometimes it's used of a judicial declaration, however, in rebirth it describes the death and burial and resurrection process by which we are separated from our sins, from our sinful flesh, and made new, not only declared righteous, but actually righteous.

Oh, blech. :p
 
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marks

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@Lambano It's often forgotten indeed that justification is a judicial reckoning, a forensic declaration, rather than some nebulous concept of "becoming righteous" (supposedly).....
It's more than that. Justification is to "render righteous", and that can refer entirely to a judicial declaration as in the case of Abraham, but it can also refer to a change of nature or quality, from "unrighteous" to "righteous".

This is the difference between OT and NT, animal sacrifice and Jesus' sacrifice.

This is why the forgiveness of sins isn't enough, a man must be born again. Even after the sin is forgiven, the man remains corrupted, and dead. Being born from God, the person's identity transfers from the old man to the new man, and the new man never was a sinner, but is a child of God, sharing God's nature, holy, and righteous.

But the body remains corrupted by sin. So we are a new pilot steering a wrecked ship. If Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

In our resurrection, God has promised a transformed ship. But though we remain in corrupt bodies, which retain the patterns of their corrupt minds, we ourselves, in Christ, are actually righteous, a reality, not only forensic, not only future, not only symbolic, or "as seen through Jesus-colored glasses", but intead, God deals with us as sons, His real children, not the dead in sin children of Adam.

We are admonished to yield ourselves to God as those alive from among the dead ones. As I've been saying to @Lambano , I think that's all very real.

Much love!
 

marks

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Oh, blech. :p

Ephesians 4:21-24 KJV
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!
 

marks

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Oh, blech. :p

Romans 6:4-7 KJV
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Literally, Justified away from sin.

Justify is "render righteous".

Much love!
 

marks

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The inside of the cup is cleaned by Christ as we join Him in his death and burial, through which He cleanses us from sin. He comes into us, to share His life with us, but we don't believe it's real, so we don't live that we. We live, we think like we used to.

We try to know ourselves according to the flesh, and in fleshy ways, instead of new spiritual realities. We try to know Jesus according to old fleshy ways, and not as though we've been brought fully and wonderfully and forever into communion with Him. We still try to live life according to old fleshy ways, attempting to control our flesh by the force of our will, by building better habits, by "accountability partners", whatever those ways may be.

And while the old ways give us some wins, they give us many more losses. But we always triumph in Christ.

We can't clean our cup, as @stunnedbygrace said, yes, I completely agree. But I likewise assert that in Christ our sins are gone, and we're given new life, and what remains is that we consistently believe this is true so we will consistently walk in it.

For myself, I find no amount of willpower, no amount of self-discipline, building better habits, nothing works with certainty. But trusting in Jesus for my deliverance from the guilt and the power of sin does. With certainty. This is the faith by which we stand in grace. Standing in grace is the freedom from sin brought to us through the cross by Jesus.

Much love!
 
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marks

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This is the faith by which we stand in grace. Standing in grace is the freedom from sin brought to us through the cross by Jesus.
When we don't believe it, don't think this is real, we just revert back to what we know . . . fleshy ways.

Much love!
 

stunnedbygrace

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Actually, I was more interested in how you would answer.

Much love!

It can’t be answered like “10 easy steps to a clean heart and mind/actually righteous.”
When we get more truth and finally stand firm in trust, (which we are greatly hindered in by the doctrines and teaching of men), He does it.
 
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marks

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I remember reading Spurgeon saying that Christ is the federal head of the elect.

I used to think of humanity as a collection of individuals, but I've learned to think of Man, created by God, unfolding over the centuries. Michael Reeves pointed out many places in the Bible that show God thinks of us that way. Levi paid tithes being in the loins of Abraham, for instance.

Adam fell - Man died. Being transfered from the power of darkness into the kingdom of God's Son, from death to life, this is moving from Adam to Christ, from the first man to the Last Man.

Much love!
 

marks

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It can’t be answered like “10 easy steps to a clean heart and mind/actually righteous.”
When we get more truth and finally stand firm in trust, (which we are greatly hindered in by the doctrines and teaching of men), He does it.
May I ask one more?

What does "born again" and "born from above" mean to you?

Much love!
 

marks

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The renewing of the mind. Put off the old man and put on the new man. We are renewing our minds from what, to what? What is the old man, what is the new man?

Much love!