Brakelite
Well-Known Member
KJV Hebrews 4:2
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Church Bashing
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2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Not necessarily.But my point is, you are more than just your anger and pride and unforgivingness ... Your sin does NOT define you.
17 But now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells in me. (Romans 7:17)
You are not your sin.
Oh, and @stunnedbygrace: The Son of God loved and still loves even cranky, angry, proud, unforgiving, self-hating Jen. And I'll tell and speak and think and breathe that message of God's love for sinners as long as I breathe and to whoever will listen.
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Yes, but just the same, rebirth and the indwelling Holy Spirit were only after the cross. Only after men's sins were removed did God come to live in us.
Much love!
If I got you right, I think that scripture refers to stopping sin but continuing to have impulses towards it. The sin is still in us although we're no longer doing it. So no temptation doesn't define us, are actions do.
Importantly, it's wise not to discuss our temptations with anyone as they may attempt to define us with that.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
When the penitent sinner brought his pet lamb to the door of the sanctuary, he placed his hands on the head of the animal confessing his sins. His sins were transferred to the animal, which was then slain. The sins, through the blood, was then transferred into the sanctuary and that blood sprinkled before the veil by the priest.
Then, once every year on the day of atonement, those transgressions of the nation were cleansed from the sanctuary and transferred to the scape goat and driven into the wilderness where they perished along with the goat. Yes, they were a type of the reality to come in Christ, yet the individuals faith in the process was as real and effectual as it is for us. Not all knew. But it was taught. Which is why Jesus was surprised Nicodemus didn't know about it.
Ah yes. So many respond this way. And I will ask you also, Does God intend that you account to yourself something that is not in reality true?
Romans 4:3 KJV
3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Didn't someone say today that it is impossible for God to lie, that had Jesus said, while at home with His family, "My family is not here", they would not be there?
God calls those things that are not as though they are.
Do you equally count yourself alive unto God? Not really alive, but try to think of yourself as alive unto God?
Didn't the apostle just finish saying you were crucified with Christ? And in Colossians 3, you have died, and your life is hid with Christ in God. And in ch. 2 of that letter,
Colossians 2:11-14 KJV
11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Death is separation. In being crucified and buried with Christ, you are justified from sin, that is, righteousness required your death, and Jesus shares His death with you, so in Him, now you also have died. Co-crucified with Christ. This death and burial separates you from your flesh - your body, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh - how much more specific could God be?
Sin is resident in the flesh - our corrupted and corruptible bodies, and particularly, but not exclusively, the brain. The mind of the flesh, against which we war. But we war as it's opponant, the newborn spirit child of God, with our mind found in the Spirit, the mind of Christ.
The man born from Adam derived his life from the flesh, but the one born from God derives their life from the Spirit. Being born of God is a new person, the new man. The condemnation of sin remains upon the old man, and not on the new man. As a new man, we are no longer resident in the flesh, subject to the corruption of the flesh, and instead have to wield it's corrupted ways until we can instill the new ways, which is the renewing of the mind.
We struggle to follow Christ, but as we persist, it gets easier. But the tests get harder. And so it goes.
It's a true and complete separation from the flesh man. This is why Romans 6 says the one who has died is justified away from sin. "Righteoused away from sin." In our new man, we share the rightousness of Christ both by imputation and nature. In our resurrection we will share His image in our bodies as well, and our inner conflict will be over.
Much love!
I totally agree! It is the righteousness of Jesus that comes to us through trust. But it is ACTUAL righteousness in the inside of our cup. It’s not all imaginary. Make no mistake, a righteous man DOES what is right.
Agreed, but just the same, as sacrifice had it's place before the cross, rebirth and the indwelling Holy Spirit came after.
Much love!
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Up until today, I always thought that scripture was somewhat disingenuous, an attempt to blame one's sinful acts on an external power. But while contemplating this subject, I think I understand what Paul is saying. Our identity is in Christ, not our sin.
Since the context of the discussion is about our being dead to sin, I'm a little touchy about equating that with self-death. I've lost too many friends and acquaintances to suicide. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death (1 Corinthians 15:26)
Lambano
Well-Known Member
I'm saying God is telling you to account yourself dead indeed unto sin, and alive unto God. That this is in Jesus, not in ourselves. And when we do so, that is the life we live, empowered by God, what so many people say you have to get to somehow by yourself, or that you can't unless God just does something. But we are spending our lives being taught by God, being trained by Him to so live our lives trusting in Jesus that we are completely available to Him to serve His pleasure. And in so doing are transformed to be that very same image, to as to bring the outer into conformance with the inner, which is Christ in me, the hope of glory.
Much love!
Think about that. Where is the power? What is justification? Is it real? Or imagined?
Much love!
Yeah I haven't been following the discussion that close. My best friend committed suicide. People reach extremes when they fail to survive in this world. My brother in law bought a BB gun replica that looked real and was going to confront the police so they would shoot him. I think I talked him out of it with the old line, bullets might not kill you but may break bones on entry causing a lot of pain.
Personally I think the verse we're talking about is referring to defiling the temple with sin and then stopping that sin and still feeling like sinning. But I've found the Holy Spirit is the solution to that, and the blood of Christ can remove defilement. So the sacrament is necessary.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Or promised?
Justification is the forensic declaration that the person justified is "in the right", a member of the family of God. The Holy Spirit is our down payment on the final state after our resurrection when Christ returns. Sometimes healing occurs in this life. Sometimes it does not. I don't know why.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
waahhhhh, that element of control is just under the surface!How dare you sigh at me in that tone of voice!
@Lambano It's often forgotten indeed that justification is a judicial reckoning, a forensic declaration, rather than some nebulous concept of "becoming righteous" (supposedly).....
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Yes. When we receive Christ, His righteousness is imputed to us. That's justification.
As we grow in Him, His righteousness is imparted to us. Sanctification.
And yes, righteousness in us is reflected through right doing.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
Actually, we ARE promised that we will become actually righteous, but when Jesus comes back.
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