Church councils?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

amigo de christo

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2020
23,418
40,019
113
52
San angelo
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
actually The church did have a headship , it was Christ and the apostles .
The church in jerusalem actually sent out letters to all the churches by the hands of men .
PS , the church of the CC aint the CHURCH . it contradicts both Christ and the apostels , though it claims to sit under both .
MY advice is , learn the bible and beware of such places as the CC and many within the protestant realm .
The church of the CC has men to sit under popes who have folks to kiss rings and kneel before them
and love such titles as MOST HOLY FATHER , MOST HOLY REVERAND . TITLES that belong to GOD not to man .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marvelloustime

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Nobody ever said "keys TO the kingdom". You invented a non-sequitur fallacy. "Keys" undeniably represent authority, they are not literal keys. Peter first received the authority to bind and loose as an individual, later given to the Apostles as a collective in Matthew 18:18. This is a clear indication of Peter's primacy that you twist and distort to exclude Peter. This is insane.
Furthermore, "binding and loosing" is a rabbinical term understood by everyone at the time that you attempt to Protestantize.
When you consider or link Matthew 16 as relates to Peter and "the keys of the kingdom" with the book of Acts, you find that Peter was the one responsible for establishing the church, the earthly kingdom, first amongst the Jews at Jerusalem (Acts2), and then amongst the Gentiles commencing with the conversion of Cornelius (Acts 10), which action he then defended to the council at Jerusalem in Acts 11. Peter being the one that established the early church, is therefore validation of Matthew 16 and the Lord’s unique statement to him, creating the setting and providing him with the opportunity,
That is the function of "pope" that you assert and deny at the same time.
wherewithal, and confirmation by heaven via the Holy Ghost to do so (collectively, “the keys”). Note too, that the Holy Ghost falling on individuals uniquely as it did on both occasions, were the only times recorded in the bible for such happening in the manner it did. Both events, that of Acts 2 and Acts 10, were done with heavenly power and authority as noted above, since in both cases, the Holy Ghost demonstrated said power and authority by its physical presence, falling on individuals in both cases as a sign to those present, giving validity to, and substantiation from heaven of Peter’s actions, consistent with the use of the word “of” in Matthew 16:19.
The Holy Spirit descending on the whole Church has nothing to do with the authority Jesus gave to Peter.
The rock - In Matthew 16:18, it's obvious that Peter isn't the rock but rather Christ is, since he is recognized as being the chief cornerstone and/or foundation per the scriptures (Ephesians 2:20, Psalm 118:22-23, Isaiah 28:16, Matthew 21:42-44, 1Cor 3:11, Acts 4:11). Also, Peter in Greek is 'Petros' Πέτρος or Cephas, [masculine gender in the Greek meaning a stone or boulder (Strong's), or rock, individual stone, more insecure or moveable], and the “rock” in Matthew 16:18 is “petra”, πέτρα (feminine gender in the Greek), being rock, cliff, solid formation, solid foundation, bedrock, large rock formation, immoveable and enduring. Also, the church is referred to as being the “bride”, “chaste virgin”, “her” (feminine), etc., and Christ being the bridegroom, which further substantiates the use of “petra” rather than “petros”. If Christ's intent was to build his church upon Peter, why wouldn't he have said "and upon you I will build my church", or “upon petros, or you, Petros I will build my church” and not "upon this rock" (petra)?
Please name any other the other Apostle whom Jesus changed their name. Obviously, Simon bar Jonah was renamed "Rock", the only Apostle whom Jesus changed their name, but this fact means nothing to you.
Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon “Kepha” in Aramaic which literally means “rock.” This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because “rock” was not even a name in Jesus’ time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person’s name, He changes their status. This you also deny.

Gen. 17:5; 32:28; 2 Kings 23:34; Acts 9:4; 13:9 – for example, in these verses, we see that God changes the following people’s names and, as a result, they become special agents of God: Abram to Abraham; Jacob to Israel, Eliakim to Jehoiakim, Saul to Paul. Simon bar Jonah to ROCK. They all become special agents of God, but not Peter??? You make no sense.

Also note that if Peter was established as the so-called first pope and head of the church (as erroneously claimed by Catholics), 1. Why did the Lord say “get thee behind me Satan” to him in Matthew 16:23?

Mark 8:33 – anti-Peter Christians sometimes use this verse to down play Peter’s authority. This does not make sense. In this verse, Jesus rebukes Peter to show the import of His Messianic role as the Savior of humanity. Moreover, at this point, Peter was not yet the Pope with the keys, and Jesus did not rebuke Peter for his teaching. Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding. But you don't get it.

Furthermore, Jesus immediately follows with His teaching on redemptive suffering, which is totally absent in all of Protestantism.
Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.” Jesus defines discipleship as one’s willingness to suffer with Him. Being a disciple of Jesus not only means having faith in Him, but offering our sufferings to the Father as He did.

Matt. 16:24; Mark 8:34 – Jesus said, “if any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.” Jesus wants us to empty ourselves so that God can fill us. When we suffer, we can choose to seek consolation in God and become closer to Jesus.

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Luke 14:27 – Jesus said, “whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.” If we reject God because we suffer, we fail to apply the graces that Jesus won for us by His suffering.


and 2. Why did the disciples quarrel amongst themselves (Luke 9:46) as to who would be the greatest among them, which occurred AFTER Peter’s statement as to who Jesus was (Luke 9:20 and parallel verse Mat 16:16)?
They quarrels among themselves because they were spiritually immature: they didn't understand that authority goes hand-in-hand with humility, the same as you don't understand. The "dominating dictator image" of the pope is the wallpaper image of "pope" in the evangelical world and its rather cartoonish. Jesus had just established Peter as head of the Apostles so it looks to me the disciples were arguing who would be next after Peter.
and 3. Why was there contention between Peter and Paul as recorded in Acts 15:2 and Gal 2:11-14 if Peter was the head of the church?
Acts 15:2 “When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.”
Who is "they"??? The Apostles and elders, that's who. AKA the Magisterium.
Gal 2:11-14
Peter was a hypocrite in that instance, and so Paul rebuked him. They had no differences theologically. Popes have been rebuked throughout history (e.g., by St. Catherine of Siena, St. Dominic, St. Francis). It doesn’t follow that they have no authority. Jesus rebuked and excoriated the Pharisees, but He told His followers to follow their teaching, even though they acted like hypocrites ((Matt 23:2 ff.).

and 4. Why did the council at Jerusalem send Peter and John to Samaria (Acts8:14) if Peter was the head of the church, yet taking direction from the council at Jerusalem?
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Again, who is "they"??? The Apostles and elders, for the second time. Because Peter and John were sent doesn't disprove their authority. Somebody with authority had to be sent to Samaria, it happened to be Peter and John, that you argue had no authority or unity.
You’re trying to set the Bible against the Church, which is typical Protestant methodology, and ultra-unbiblical. The Bible never does that.
Also note that no man (in a religious sense, Mat 23:8-9), is to be called father on earth, yet the pope is commonly referred to as the “Holy Father”. And too, Christ is the head of the church which is his body, not Peter (Eph 5:23, Col 1:18)
The "call no man father" is an argument from uneducated fundamentalists who read into scripture what isn't there, just to attack Catholics, and it's been refuted a million times.

Only God is holy by his very essence; however, by a person, place, or thing’s association with God, it too can be called holy. To be called holy is to express the idea of consecration, that someone or something belongs to God. That is why the Bible can call many persons, places, and things holy.

In Genesis 28:16, the place God appears is “holy.” In Exodus 19:6, God tells the Israelites through Moses, “and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” God’s dwelling place in the Tabernacle is “holy” (Ex 28:43), as is the city of Jerusalem (Is 48:2). Even a goat, the victim of sacrifice to God, is called “holy” in Leviticus 10:17.

After Christ’s death and resurrection the Christians called themselves and each other “holy ones” or “saints,” called by God to be his (Rom 1:7). In 1 Peter 1:16 we read, “it is written, ‘You shall be holy, for I am holy.’”

As for the father part, "Pope" is transliterated from the Greek to the Italian "pappas", which means "father". In the first 3 centuries, every bishop was called "pope", but you have little or nothing to do with that church.

Put "holy" and "father" together and you have a perfectly BIBLICAL title for the pope.
 
Last edited:

DJT_47

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2022
930
318
63
Michigan/Sterling Heights
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Your counter arguments make no logical, scriptural, sense and are simply your views.

There are many people that say keys "to" and not "of" the kingdom which I've heard personally over the years, using the terms interchangeably. There are also a few bible translations such as the NAB that say "to" not "of"; but the interchangeability issue however is the most common error committed by most.

Your comment "that is the function of "pope" makes no sense as relates to Peter's unique actions in Acts 2 and 10, namely, the steps taken in establishment of the churches at Jerusalem and at Caesarea.

Your comment "The Holy Spirit descending on the whole Church has nothing to do with the authority Jesus gave to Peter", has no relevance to Acts 2 and 10 since the unique falling of the Holy Ghost in both instances was not on the church but rather on the apostles in Acts 2 and on the Gentiles in Acts 10 and in each case was for a heavenly sign as authority.

Your comments regarding the rock did not address the issues made, such as, Christ being the rock as noted throughout scripture, or the gender differential, or the nature of the church as relates to Christ as a bride. Go back and read it again.

And the fact of the matter is that the contention amongst the apostles as to who would be the greatest among them happened subsequent to Jesus unique comments made to Peter, so if he were in charge so to speak, there would have been no contention whatsoever amongst the others.

And the fact is, regarding Acts 8:14, that Peter WAS SENT by others. If he were in charge, he would have been doing the sending. He was not in charge and not the prescribed head of the others as Catholics erroneously contend.

Bishops are exactly that: bishops meaning the same as elder and are the shepherds of the local flocks, the individual church congregations. They are not popes irregardless of who may have ascribed such a title to them in the times you've cited subsequent to biblical times.
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Your counter arguments make no logical, scriptural, sense and are simply your views.
My counter arguments make more sense than yours.
There are many people that say keys "to" and not "of" the kingdom which I've heard personally over the years, using the terms interchangeably. There are also a few bible translations such as the NAB that say "to" not "of"; but the interchangeability issue however is the most common error committed by most.
Jesus gave Peter keys. Get over it.
Matt. 16:18-19 the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.
Your comment "that is the function of "pope" makes no sense as relates to Peter's unique actions in Acts 2 and 10, namely, the steps taken in establishment of the churches at Jerusalem and at Caesarea.
You say Peter has unique actions, but there is nothing unique about his office. You contradict yourself.
Your comment "The Holy Spirit descending on the whole Church has nothing to do with the authority Jesus gave to Peter", has no relevance to Acts 2 and 10 since the unique falling of the Holy Ghost in both instances was not on the church but rather on the apostles in Acts 2 and on the Gentiles in Acts 10 and in each case was for a heavenly sign as authority.
You are trying to separate the Apostles from the Church.
That is insane.
Your comments regarding the rock did not address the issues made, such as, Christ being the rock as noted throughout scripture, or the gender differential, or the nature of the church as relates to Christ as a bride. Go back and read it again.
You are confusing Rock with Bride. Christ is not the bride. Bride is a metaphor for the whole Church. Rock is the name of an individual.
And the fact of the matter is that the contention amongst the apostles as to who would be the greatest among them happened subsequent to Jesus unique comments made to Peter, so if he were in charge so to speak, there would have been no contention whatsoever amongst the others.
The Apostles who were arguing who would be the greatest were arguing in error, as Jesus plainly corrected them. Peter didn't need to be "in charge" because Jesus was right there.
And the fact is, regarding Acts 8:14, that Peter WAS SENT by others. If he were in charge, he would have been doing the sending. He was not in charge and not the prescribed head of the others as Catholics erroneously contend.
Apostle means "one who is sent", look it up. Peter and John were sent by the whole Church. Peter and John are Apostles and are part of the Magisterium. You fail to understand the unity of the episcopate.
Bishops are exactly that: bishops meaning the same as elder and are the shepherds of the local flocks, the individual church congregations. They are not popes irregardless of who may have ascribed such a title to them in the times you've cited subsequent to biblical times.
There is no such thing as "individual congregations" acting independently from the institutional Church. That is a manmade tradition relying solely on 16th century politics. It's a back peddled invention. You have no centrality of doctrine nor unity of belief because you have no pope. Thousands of conflicting denominations proves the point. "Non-denomination" is the purist from of reformism. Scriptural and historical evidence for the papacy is overwhelming, as I have posted repeatedly. Your word games don't cut it.

The bishop of Rome has local jurisdiction for the church in Rome, just as my bishop has local jurisdiction in my city. The bishop of Rome has historically had universal jurisdiction for the universal church. It's a dual role only for the bishop of Rome. Pope Francis has local jurisdiction for the diocese in Rome. St. Linus (67-76) succeeded Peter as the bishop of Rome, St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88) succeeded Linus, St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88), and St. Clement I (88-97) succeeded St. Anacletus. Bishops of Rome:
  • 1. St. Peter (33-67)
  • 2. St. Linus (67-76)
  • 3. St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
  • 4. St. Clement I (88-97)
You are forced to re-write/deny early church history so until you get your facts straight, you will continue to argue in circles.
 
Last edited:

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Daniel Wallace:
  • BA, Biola University, 1975
  • ThM, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1979
  • PhD, Dallas Theological Seminary, 1995
  • Post-doctoral studies at Cambridge University, University of Münster, and Tübingen University
"Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head, no accountability beyond the local congregation, no fellowship beyond the local assembly, no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity."

Non-denominationals have no business making unqualified critiques of Catholicism.
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Believe whatever man made-up nonsense and traditions you like. I'll adhere to the inspired written word of God and that only. Goodbye
Oh com' on! I'm just getting started! The written word of God mandates Tradition, properly defined. So you are forced to change it's meaning.

Debate: Early Catholic Authority & Development of Ecclesiology​

Jason Engwer: Jimmy appealed to the paradigm of scripture, tradition, and magisterium that he claims we see during the time of the apostles. But he acknowledged that Divine revelation started orally during the Old Testament era, without scripture or a magisterium.

Indeed it did. Before there was a Bible, God communicated with Moses the oral law on Mt. Sinai. This is what Judaism believes, and Christians, to varying degrees, do also. See my paper, Biblical Evidence for the Oral Torah & Oral Apostolic Tradition (10-18-11). In it I provide nine biblical arguments for an oral law that was in place in Old Testament times. Jewish oral tradition was accepted by Jesus and the apostles:

1) Matthew 2:23: the reference to “. . . He shall be called a Nazarene ” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was passed down “by the prophets.” Thus, a prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s Word” was passed down orally, rather than through Scripture.

read more here
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Don't compare prophesy with Catholic tradition.
2) Matthew 23:2-3: Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority, based on Moses’ seat, which phrase (or idea) cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishna, where a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down is taught. Thus, “apostolic succession,” whereby the Catholic Church, in its priests and bishops and popes, claims to be merely the custodian of an inherited apostolic tradition, is also prefigured by Jewish oral tradition, as approved (at least partially) by Jesus Himself.

See my huge interaction with Baptist anti-Catholic apologist James White on this topic: Refutation of James White: Moses’ Seat, the Bible, and Tradition (Introduction: #1) (+Part II | Part III | Part IV | Part V | Part VI) [5-12-05]

read more here

What is inherited from authentic Jewish oral tradition has nothing to with prophecy. Moses' seat is a teaching succession, a prefigurement of church government, not a prophecy. Rejection of any teaching succession is the basis for non-denominationism, which logically makes them a denomination.

Your false definition of "Catholic tradition" has you bound in chains. I suggest you find out what we mean by it so you can avoid making a fool of yourself.
 
Last edited:

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
It's the fool that believes lies and follows the traditions of man instead of the word of God. Sounds like Catholics to me, which I am not.
Once again, you erroneously equate "traditions of man" with biblical Sacred Tradition, which is YOUR false tradition.

The New Testament explicitly teaches that traditions can be either good (from God) or bad (from men, when against God’s true traditions). This is what you refuse to understand.

Corrupt pharisaic teachings were a bad tradition (but many of their legitimate teachings were recognized by Jesus; see, e.g., Matt 23:3). The spoken gospel and the apostolic writings which eventually were formulated as Holy Scripture (authoritatively recognized by the Church in 397 ad at the Council of Carthage) were altogether good: the authentic Christian tradition as revealed by the incarnate God to the Apostles.

The Greek word for “tradition” in the New Testament is paradosis. It occurs in Colossians 2:8 and in the following three passages:

1 Corinthians 11:2 (RSV) Maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (NRSV, NEB, REB, NKJV, NASB all use “tradition”).
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

Note that St. Paul draws no qualitative distinction between written and oral tradition. He doesn’t regard oral Christian tradition as bad and undesirable. Rather, this false belief is, ironically, itself an unbiblical “tradition of men.”

You adhere to this false tradition that has you in bound in chains; that's why you violate the very scripture you think you uphold.

taken from Tradition Isn't a Dirty Word - The Coming Home Network < that you cannot comprehend.
 
Last edited:

BreadOfLife

Well-Known Member
Jan 2, 2017
20,950
3,391
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's the fool that believes lies and follows the traditions of man instead of the word of God. Sounds like Catholics to me, which I am not.
And you can’t get any more “man-made” than the Protestant Traditions that are taught NOWHERE in the Bible –
Sola Scripture
Sol Fide
Limited Atonement
Imputed righteousness
Christian Infant “Dedications”
Eternal Security (OSAS)
A Pre-Millennial “Rapture”
- and on and on . . .
 

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Believe what you like. Goodbye

It is part of the non-denomination tradition to suspend judgment on doctrine until the individual is satisfied that he can find it in the Scriptures, for "the whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture" (WCF 1:6).

No religious teacher, not even the Church, deserves credence unless he teaches what the reader, enlightened by the Spirit, finds in the Scriptures. The believer therefore must set for himself that this or that doctrine is true. Before he accepts it, he weighs the doctrine in the balance of his own understanding of the Scriptures.

This is just the reverse of the Catholic's approach to belief. As the Catholic sees it, he must accept God on God's terms and not his own, which means to accept it from the hands of God's authorized teacher. It is not for him to "judge" the divine message but only to receive it. The basic difference between Catholic and non-Catholic approach to religious truth is that the non-Catholic constructs it, while the Catholic receives it so that no construction is called for or even in place of.

You believe what you like, we simply receive the divine message without having to construct it.

1670902614804.jpeg

 

Attachments

  • 1670902149636.png
    1670902149636.png
    228.1 KB · Views: 0

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Imputed righteousness is a Gospel truth, not a man-made invention. So it is high time your learned what this is all about. Imputed righteousness and eternal security go hand-in-hand.
Please name anyone before the 16th century who formalized Imputed righteousness and eternal security. Cite sources please.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Please name anyone before the 16th century who formalized Imputed righteousness and eternal security. Cite sources please.
Well we really need to go to the one source of all divine truth, which is the Word of God. So that is the source that is totally above reproach. See Romans chapter 4 and James 2:23.
 
  • Love
Reactions: amigo de christo

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,997
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Well we really need to go to the one source of all divine truth, which is the Word of God. So that is the source that is totally above reproach. See Romans chapter 4 and James 2:23 (KJB).
Also please note that both the Latin Vulgate and the Douay-Rheims English have failed to translate this chapter correctly. But Wycliffe who translated the Vulgate did in fact translate correctly using quaint Middle English.
 
  • Love
Reactions: amigo de christo

Illuminator

Well-Known Member
Jan 11, 2020
3,389
1,194
113
72
Hamilton
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Well we really need to go to the one source of all divine truth, which is the Word of God. So that is the source that is totally above reproach. See Romans chapter 4 and James 2:23.
TRANSLATION: I can't name anyone who taught before the 15th century imputed righteousness and eternal security, so I will appeal to a Donatist heretic from the 13th century, (Wycliffe) an off-topic derailer that evades Illuminator's statement.

I suppose that "middle English" was good enough for Jesus and the Apostles, it's good enough for Wycliffe. :goodj:

Again, Please name anyone before the 15th century who formalized Imputed righteousness and eternal security. Cite sources please. These manmade traditions were invented by Luther and Calvin (not Wycliffe) and are not in the Bible. Wycliffe believed that the state holds supremacy over the Church and advocated for the theft of Church property.

The Bible is Clear: ‘Eternal Security’ is a Manmade Doctrine
and not taught anywhere before the 15th century.

Furthermore, the phrase "Word of God" appears 61 times in the Wycliffe Bible, 54 times in the KJV. No matter what translation you pick, nowhere does "word of God" refer to the written word alone. This is how sola scriptura harms the Bible.


Run along and find another off-topic derailer.