Church councils?

[BreadOfLife]

I'm not a protestant either

If you’re a Baptized Non-Catholic/Non-Orthodox Christian – then you are a Protestant Christian.

Anything else is NOT Christian.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Imputed righteousness is a Gospel truth, not a man-made invention. So it is high time you learned what this is all about. Imputed righteousness and eternal security go hand-in-hand.

YOUR problem – as with every other Protestant – is that you take MANY verses OUT of context to arrive at your UNbiblical interpretations. Scripture doesn’t contradict itself – NOR is God a liar.

2 Cor. 5:21
“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him WE might BECOME the righteousness of God”.

“BECOME” His righteousness -- not simply “covered by”.

Rev. 21:27 assures us that NOTHING impure or imperfect can enter Heaven. The false Protestant doctrine of “imputed righteousness” posits that you can fool God my sneaking into Heaven by being “covered” with the righteousness of Christ. Your Protestant Father v Martin Luther called those who do this, “Snow-covered dunghills.” I can ASSURE you that there are NO dunghills in Heaven – covered or otherwise - because that would be impure AND imperfect.

I agree with you on ONE point:
Imputed Righteousness and Eternal Security absolutely DO go hand-in-hand because they are both FALSE doctrines . . . . . .
(Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)

 

[Illuminator]

Well we really need to go to the one source of all divine truth, which is the Word of God. So that is the source that is totally above reproach. See Romans chapter 4 and James 2:23.

Let's take a look at Romans 4

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works.
Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

 

[Marymog]

The cc has you all decieved . Even pual had to rebuke peter . THERE was no one man who sat over them all .
Each apostle was an equal . JUST LIKE JESUS said . Ye shall not rule over , lord over , OOPS the CC seems to have forgot that one
as it has for centuries had folks kissing rings of popes and giving flattering tiltes such as MOST HOLY REVERAND , MOST HOLY FATHER
Pard , LEARN JESUS . cause titles like that BELONG ONLY TO GOD , NOT MAN . These dopes fooled folks into
serving THEM . PETER rebuked cornelious for trying to kneel before him
but yalls popes would have said HOLD ON TILL I PUT ON MY RING AND SIT IN A CHAIR THEN KISS MY RING AND CALL ME MOST REVERAND . That place has sucked the life out of so many souls its truly countless .
But i have come to do all to point to CHRIST . My desire is good for you , LIFE for you , so i beg you to flee that hole and fast .
Its deadly and dangerous .

Lol.....You crack me up Amigo. According to you I have the men of The Church to deceive me. And you have yourself to deceive yourself. That is dangerous.

Here is the truth: Peter’s dining with the Gentile Christians in table fellowship, and when the Jewish Christians come from Antioch, Peter withdraws from table fellowship with the Gentiles and others present there follow him in that action. And Paul rebukes Peter for that and calls him to task in saying, “Hey, look, you’re not practicing what you’re preaching.” The preaching being that Gentiles are now welcome to enter into the covenantal family with God, not by circumcision, but by the grace of God through faith. And so, Paul rebukes them for that. That doesn't mean Peter is infallible. He is just human. That doesn't mean that Peter wasn't the leader of the Apostles. If you knew Scripture you would know that that after the death of Jesus he was leader of the Apostles.

 

[amigo de christo]

Lol.....You crack me up Amigo. According to you I have the men of The Church to deceive me. And you have yourself to deceive yourself. That is dangerous.

Here is the truth: Peter’s dining with the Gentile Christians in table fellowship, and when the Jewish Christians come from Antioch, Peter withdraws from table fellowship with the Gentiles and others present there follow him in that action. And Paul rebukes Peter for that and calls him to task in saying, “Hey, look, you’re not practicing what you’re preaching.” The preaching being that Gentiles are now welcome to enter into the covenantal family with God, not by circumcision, but by the grace of God through faith. And so, Paul rebukes them for that. That doesn't mean Peter is infallible. He is just human. That doesn't mean that Peter wasn't the leader of the Apostles. If you knew Scripture you would know that that after the death of Jesus he was leader of the Apostles.

My beef aint with peter . Its with the CC . That instution has led to the death of many throughout all centuries .
And i dont mean just killing folks with physical death , BUt with spiritual death too . Peter would have rebuked that place .
Your no different than the mormons or jws or any other who claims they follow Christ and the apostels , WHEN IN TRUTH
they follow MEN who taught contrary to them . And you and others just keep defending yalls institutions .
Anyone can claim they follow Christ and the apostels . YOU know how I know they dont , WHEN THEY TEACH CONTRARY .
Just as the CC has done , just as many others have done . LEARN THE BIBLE before its too late . AND LEARN it for yourself
not through the twisted lens of an institution gone wrong .

 

[Illuminator]

My beef aint with peter . Its with the CC .

Pope Francis celebrated Mass in St. Peter’s Basilica for the feast of Sts. Peter and Paul. Here is a Vatican translation of his homily:
~
Two great Apostles of the Gospel and two pillars of the Church: Peter and Paul. Today we celebrate their memory. Let us take a closer look at these two witnesses of faith. At the heart of their story is not their own gifts and abilities; at the centre is the encounter with Christ that changed their lives. They experienced a love that healed them and set them free. They then became apostles and ministers of freedom for others.

Peter and Paul were free because they were set free. Let us reflect on this central point.

Peter, the fisherman from Galilee, was set free above all from his sense of inadequacy and his bitter experience of failure, thanks to the unconditional love of Jesus. Although a skilled fisher, many times, in the heart of the night, he tasted the bitterness of frustration at having caught nothing (cf. Lk 5:5; Jn 21:5) and, seeing his empty nets, was tempted to pull up his oars. Though strong and impetuous, Peter often yielded to fear (cf. Mt 14:30). Albeit a fervent disciple of the Lord, he continued to think by worldly standards, and thus failed to understand and accept the meaning of Christ’s cross (cf. Mt 16:22). Even after saying that he was ready to give his life for Jesus, the mere suspicion that he was one of Christ’s disciples led him in fright to deny the Master (cf. Mk14:66-72).

Jesus nonetheless loved Peter and was willing to take a risk on him. He encouraged Peter not to give up, to lower his nets once more, to walk on water, to find the strength to accept his own frailty, to follow him on the way of the cross, to give his life for his brothers and sisters, to shepherd his flock. In this way, Jesus set Peter free from fear, from calculations based solely on worldly concerns. He gave him the courage to risk everything and the joy of becoming a fisher of men. It was Peter whom Jesus called to strengthen his brothers in faith (cf. Lk 22:32). He gave him – as we heard in the Gospel – the keys to open the doors leading to an encounter with the Lord and the power to bind and loose: to bind his brothers and sisters to Christ and to loosen the knots and chains in their lives (cf. Mt 16:19).

All that was possible only because – as we heard in the first reading – Peter himself had been set free. The chains that held him prisoner were shattered and, as on the night when the Israelites were set free from bondage in Egypt, he was told to arise in haste, fasten his belt and put on his sandals in order to go forth. The Lord then opened the doors before him (cf. Acts 12:7-10). Here we see a new history of opening, liberation, broken chains, exodus from the house of bondage. Peter had a Passover experience: the Lord set him free.

The Apostle Paul also experienced the freedom brought by Christ. He was set free from the most oppressive form of slavery, which is slavery to self.
Pope Francis
READ MORE HERE

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Sorry to interrupt you guys but I remembered that @Marymog is catholic and have a question for her about purgatory please.
I want to know which verses they say talk about purgatory. I’m assuming the parable about the man thrown into prison until he pays the last farthing is one of them.

Not interested in a fight about how some unsavory men crept in and tried to make money as that’s always gone on at times. (And has been going on unchecked on the tv channels of evangelicalism for years!)

I thought if anyone would know the verses the Catholic Church fathers saw purgatory in it would be you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Nope, never mind, sorry to bother. I found this online.

 

[RR144]

what is their authority to bind all Christians?

The only binding authority they have are against those who are willing to give up their Christian freedom for the yoke of bondage such a council would put upon them.

 

[Illuminator]

My beef aint with peter . Its with the CC . That instution has led to the death of many throughout all centuries .

Always asserted, but never proven. Changing the meaning of "institution" into a dirty word is not biblical. Peter, James and John together with all the Apostles and elders, in Acts15, is by definition, an institution. Together they reached infallible decision, not by their own power because the Holy Spirit was with them. An anti-institution Christian is a contradiction in terms, it's not biblical nor does it make any sense.

And i dont mean just killing folks with physical death , BUt with spiritual death too . Peter would have rebuked that place .

"Peter" continues to rebuke physical and spiritual death through the office Jesus established, that you unbiblically deny.

Your no different than the mormons or jws or any other who claims they follow Christ and the apostels , WHEN IN TRUTH
they follow MEN who taught contrary to them .

What "MEN" do you mean? Are you saying the Early Church Fathers were conniving liars comparable to mormons or jws? But you never identify any of these "MEN" by name. Making air-head generalities, passed off as truth is just stupid. You refuse to prove any Early Church Father contradicted Christ and the Apostles because that would require study. Their writings are available on line for all to see, but you seem to be content ignoring what they actually taught and make slanderous accusations with no proof.

And you and others just keep defending yalls institutions .

Something simple like organizing an inner city soup kitchen requires institutions in order to function. Big mouth fundie bible cults do nothing to alleviate human misery because they oppose institutions.

Anyone can claim they follow Christ and the apostels . YOU know how I know they dont , WHEN THEY TEACH CONTRARY .

The Bible says you will know them by their fruits. Making false claims about any group who doesn't follow your wooden, narrow view of "church" is rotten fruit and not of the Holy Spirit. Your claims against the Early Church Fathers who "TEACH CONTRARY" is based on prejudice and ignorance, because you refuse to discuss any of them, or even name one. St. Athanasius first listed 27 books of the NT as Scripture in the mid 3rd century and you are saying he was a conniving liar. Grow up.

Just as the CC has done , just as many others have done . LEARN THE BIBLE before its too late . AND LEARN it for yourself
not through the twisted lens of an institution gone wrong .

The books of the Bible itself was preserved, compiled and proclaimed by the Early Church Fathers whom you unwittingly insult. You are forced to invent Bible origin fantasies that contradict Protestant historians. "Learning the Bible for yourself" apart from the institution that gave it to you in the first place is why there are thousands of sola scripturists disagreeing with thousands of other sola scripturists proves that Individualism is a heresy because the result of "Learning the Bible for yourself" is a chaotic mess.

TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEXT.
The BIBLE without the CHURCH is just an EXCUSE.​

 

[amigo de christo]

Always asserted, but never proven. Changing the meaning of "institution" into a dirty word is not biblical. Peter, James and John together with all the Apostles and elders, in Acts15, is by definition, an institution. Together they reached infallible decision, not by their own power because the Holy Spirit was with them. An anti-institution Christian is a contradiction in terms, it's not biblical nor does it make any sense.

"Peter" continues to rebuke physical and spiritual death through the office Jesus established, that you unbiblically deny.

What "MEN" do you mean? Are you saying the Early Church Fathers were conniving liars comparable to mormons or jws? But you never identify any of these "MEN" by name. Making air-head generalities, passed off as truth is just stupid. You refuse to prove any Early Church Father contradicted Christ and the Apostles because that would require study. Their writings are available on line for all to see, but you seem to be content ignoring what they actually taught and make slanderous accusations with no proof.

Something simple like organizing an inner city soup kitchen requires institutions in order to function. Big mouth fundie bible cults do nothing to alleviate human misery because they oppose institutions.

The Bible says you will know them by their fruits. Making false claims about any group who doesn't follow your wooden, narrow view of "church" is rotten fruit and not of the Holy Spirit. Your claims against the Early Church Fathers who "TEACH CONTRARY" is based on prejudice and ignorance, because you refuse to discuss any of them, or even name one. St. Athanasius first listed 27 books of the NT as Scripture in the mid 3rd century and you are saying he was a conniving liar. Grow up.

The books of the Bible itself was preserved, compiled and proclaimed by the Early Church Fathers whom you unwittingly insult. You are forced to invent Bible origin fantasies that contradict Protestant historians. "Learning the Bible for yourself" apart from the institution that gave it to you in the first place is why there are thousands of sola scripturists disagreeing with thousands of other sola scripturists proves that Individualism is a heresy because the result of "Learning the Bible for yourself" is a chaotic mess.

TEXT without CONTEXT is a PRETEXT.
The BIBLE without the CHURCH is just an EXCUSE.​

Peter would rebuke the CC . learn that bible before its too late .

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What "MEN" do you mean? Are you saying the Early Church Fathers were conniving liars comparable to mormons or jws? But you never identify any of these "MEN" by name. Making air-head generalities, passed off as truth is just stupid. You refuse to prove any Early Church Father contradicted Christ and the Apostles because that would require study. Their writings are available on line for all to see, but you seem to be content ignoring what they actually taught and make slanderous accusations with no proof.

Amigo's accusations (which he shoots at pretty much everyone) are indeed very low quality.

But I would urge you @Illuminator , to be better then that. Stuff like calling other sects "conniving liars" is likewise a sweeping and inaccurate attack. I'm a "Mormon", and no I'm not lair. I'm a person whom loves Jesus Christ- He's my Lord & Savior and I strive to be His disciple every day. And no, I don't Catholic bashing-- I find any bashing of anyone to be poor behavior.

 

[Enoch111]

Peter would rebuke the CC . learn that bible before its too late .

Peter would put the popes on the same level as Simon the Sorcerer.

 

[amigo de christo]

Peter would put the popes on the same level as Simon the Sorcerer.

Yes indeed my friend .

 

[Illuminator]

Peter would put the popes on the same level as Simon the Sorcerer.

Another air-head insult with no proof. This comes from a pro-Rizzian troll who favors Putin's morality over Zelenski defending his country. See Do most Christians here really support Russia invading Ukraine? post #3 where Enogh!111 glorifies a genocidal psychopath, and quotes Putin directly..

​

 

[Illuminator]

Amigo's accusations (which he shoots at pretty much everyone) are indeed very low quality.

But I would urge you @Illuminator , to be better then that. Stuff like calling other sects "conniving liars" is likewise a sweeping and inaccurate attack. I'm a "Mormon", and no I'm not lair. I'm a person whom loves Jesus Christ- He's my Lord & Savior and I strive to be His disciple every day. And no, I don't Catholic bashing-- I find any bashing of anyone to be poor behavior.

Thank you for your kind admonishment, but I could be more clear. I don't call other sects conniving liars, I am saying that is wrong to call the Early Church Fathers conniving liars, directly or indirectly, which is poor behavior often committed by uneducated self-righteous fundies like Amigo, and paranoid schizophrenics whose name I will not mention..

 

[Enoch111]

Yes indeed my friend .

The deceptive teachings of the church of Rome are indeed a form of sorcery. Father Charles Chiniquy wrote a book titled Fifty Years in the Church of Rome. Every Catholic should read that book. Here is just a small excerpt:

"But how shall I relate my surprise when I discovered, that in order to accept the principles of the theologians which my Church gave me for guides, I had to put away all principles of truth, of justice, of honor and holiness! What long and painful efforts it cost me to extinguish, one by one, the lights of truth and of reason kindled by the hand of my merciful God in my intelligence. For to study theology in the Church of Rome signifies to learn to speak falsely, to deceive, to commit robbery, to perjure one’s self! It means how to commit sins without shame, it means to plunge the soul into every kind of iniquity and turpitude without remorse!"

 

[Illuminator]

The deceptive teachings of the church of Rome are indeed a form of sorcery. Father Charles Chiniquy wrote a book titled Fifty Years in the Church of Rome. Every Catholic should read that book. Here is just a small excerpt:

"But how shall I relate my surprise when I discovered, that in order to accept the principles of the theologians which my Church gave me for guides, I had to put away all principles of truth, of justice, of honor and holiness! What long and painful efforts it cost me to extinguish, one by one, the lights of truth and of reason kindled by the hand of my merciful God in my intelligence. For to study theology in the Church of Rome signifies to learn to speak falsely, to deceive, to commit robbery, to perjure one’s self! It means how to commit sins without shame, it means to plunge the soul into every kind of iniquity and turpitude without remorse!"

A derailer from Enogh111 because he embarrassed himself with a psychotic flaming zinger "Peter would put the popes on the same level as Simon the Sorcerer." This is nothing less than raw hatred. He also thinks a genocidal psychopath (Putin) is morally superior to Zelenski and Biden. Russian president Vladimir Putin has approved the basic principles of the state policy to preserve and strengthen so-called "traditional Russian spiritual and moral values", and the whole world is aghast at it's hypocrisy. It's right to oppose the gay agenda, but wrong to inflict long jail sentences on suspects through sham trials.

After Chiniquy was excommunicated from the Catholic Church (due to sexual perversions) and became a Presbyterian, he was expelled from Protestant assemblies due to embezzlement and the "misappropriation of money he collected on false pretenses in Europe on behalf of a non-existent Protestant charity". The following essay points out contradictions in Chiniquy's testimony and calls into question his trustworthiness:

Pastor Chiniquy: An Examination of his "Fifty Years in the Church of Rome" by Rev. Sydney F. Smith, S.J. (available here)

This will help put the Charles Chiniquy story in perspective.

Putin and Chiniquy are religious heroes, according to Enogh111

non-Catholic analysis of Chiniquy's book:

Charles Chiniquy vs. the Catholic Church - 1801-1900 Church History

Charles Chiniquy vs. the Catholic Church from the 1801-1900 Church history timeline. Learn about historical christian events within church history!

www.christianity.com

To this day, some of Chiniquy's works are still promoted among Protestant Christians and Sola scriptura believers. One of his most well-known modern day followers was the American Evangelical cartoonist and comic book writer Jack Chick, notable for being the creator of the "Chick tracts";[14] he also published a comic-form adaptation of Chiniquy's autobiography Fifty Years in The Church of Rome, titled "The Big Betrayal".[15] Chick strongly relied on Chiniquy's claims and books for writing his own anti-Catholic tracts.​

Charles Chiniquy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Enoch111 is duped by the lies of Jack Chick, the sickness of Chiniquy and the false propaganda of Putin. His psychotic derailers to cover up his hate by using more hate only work with like minded ignorant bigots.

 

[Marymog]

Sorry to interrupt you guys but I remembered that @Marymog is catholic and have a question for her about purgatory please.
I want to know which verses they say talk about purgatory. I’m assuming the parable about the man thrown into prison until he pays the last farthing is one of them.

Not interested in a fight about how some unsavory men crept in and tried to make money as that’s always gone on at times. (And has been going on unchecked on the tv channels of evangelicalism for years!)

I thought if anyone would know the verses the Catholic Church fathers saw purgatory in it would be you.

Good morning Stunnedbygrace,

I don't think you are interrupting, and I appreciate the dialogue. You ask a good question.

It is important to start with Scripture when answering your question. 'The parable about the man thrown into prison until he pays the last farthing" (Matthew 5:25-26) is one of the passages from Scripture. Another passage like it is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Also, Matthew 12:31-32 says that anyone who speaketh against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven in this world or in the world to come. The reason that passage is important is because it suggests that there are sins that CAN be forgiven after death. And let us not forget what the Jewish faith teaches about Purgatory in 2 Macc. 12:41–45 and how they believe in it also. So, Maccabees was written around 130BC and Matthew along with Corinthians was written roughly 50-80AD.

Now to address your Church Fathers question/comment. I suggest you read what Tertullian had to say about it in The Crown 3:3 [A.D. 211] and Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216] for the earliest "Church Father" writing on the matter. If you want to go back a little further in time and read some early Christian history, I suggest you read Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]) and Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190].

Along with OT, NT and early Christian writings that covers approximately 350 years of Jewish/Christian teaching on the matter. The makes the earliest teachings on Purgatory about 1,600 years BEFORE some random Protestant men came up with a different interpretation of those passages and rejected the earliest Christian writings/doctrine concerning the matter.

So, I ask you Stunnedbygrace: Why so you accept the 500-year teaching of some random Protestant men and reject the teachings of the Jews and earliest Christians?

You have no fight with me concerning the unsavory men, both Catholic and Protestant, that have fulfilled 1 Timothy 6:10. They are disgusting. But maybe, just maybe, IF they get to Purgatory they will be cleansed.

 

[Marymog]

My beef aint with peter . Its with the CC . That instution has led to the death of many throughout all centuries .
And i dont mean just killing folks with physical death , BUt with spiritual death too . Peter would have rebuked that place .
Your no different than the mormons or jws or any other who claims they follow Christ and the apostels , WHEN IN TRUTH
they follow MEN who taught contrary to them . And you and others just keep defending yalls institutions .
Anyone can claim they follow Christ and the apostels . YOU know how I know they dont , WHEN THEY TEACH CONTRARY .
Just as the CC has done , just as many others have done . LEARN THE BIBLE before its too late . AND LEARN it for yourself
not through the twisted lens of an institution gone wrong .

And you follow you.....think about it Amigo