Church

[GodsGrace]

That's completely false.
MOST of what you say about the Church is false - but so goes the claims of anti-Catholics . . .

I don't appreciate being called a liar.
But coming from you, I really could care less.
Truth is truth, whether YOU believe it or not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't appreciate being called a liar.
But coming from you, I really could care less.
Truth is truth, whether YOU believe it or not.

I never called you a "liar" or anything else.
I simply said that pretty much every claim you make about the Catholic Church and its teachings is false. - and I've proven you wrong time and time again.

Try being honest, for a change . . .

 

[amadeus]

And this can also be construed as spiritual pride.

Construe it as you will. The decision for the ones I described is neither your nor mine, but God's.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Construe it as you will. The decision for the ones I described is neither your nor mine, but God's.

No - it's theirs.
God doesn't decide for us whether we are going to listen to him of follow Him.

That decision can only be made by the individual.

 

[amadeus]

No - it's theirs.
God doesn't decide for us whether we are going to listen to him of follow Him.

That decision can only be made by the individual.

Indeed ,it is theirs, but I am afraid you have decided that God's understanding of the matter rests in the RCC. I, on the other hand, believe that it is not in the RCC nor in any other organized Christian church on the planet. The right or wrong of a person direction or position or belief ultimately is in the heart of the individual, and only God always sees in each heart.

 

[epostle1]

MISCONCEPTION REGARDING CATHOLICS BEING FORBIDDEN​

FROM READING THE HOLY BIBLE.​

There is a myth circulating in the Protestant circle that, now and/or in the past, Catholics were forbidden from reading the Holy Bible.

This myth opposes the centuries old practice of promoting the Catholic Bible:

1. The first Bible was compiled by scholars of the Catholic Church during the second and third century. It was approved by the Catholic Councils of Hippo in 393 A.D. and Carthage in 397 A.D.

2. The first Bible to be printed was a Catholic Bible under the auspices of the Catholic Church. It was printed by the Catholic inventor of the printing press, Johannes Gutenberg.

3. The first Bible to have numbered chapters was produced by the Catholic Cardinal Archbishop of Canterbury, Stephen Langton, in the 13th century, and verse numbers were added 2 centuries later.

4. Everyday during the Holy Mass, throughout the world, there are 2 Bible readings, 3 on Sundays.

5. Most Catholic homes have a Bible.

6. The Bible is taught in Catholic Schools.

7. All Catholics are free to purchase a Holy Bible if they wish to do so and are encouraged to read it in their leisure time. (the priest may give you a free one)
Catholic Apologetics: Forbidden to read the Bible.

​

Luther's Protestant Bible came out 1520 and before his Bible the Catholic Bible had been translated into Spanish, Italian, Danish, French, Norwegian, Polish, Bohemian, Hungarian and English, there was exactly 104 editions in Latin; 38 editions in German language, 25 editions in Italian language, 18 in French. In all 626 editions of the Bible with 198 in the language of the laity, had been edited before the first Protestant Bible was sent forth into the world.

Please stop saying the Church forbade Bible reading or kept it from the people.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Indeed ,it is theirs, but I am afraid you have decided that God's understanding of the matter rests in the RCC. I, on the other hand, believe that it is not in the RCC nor in any other organized Christian church on the planet. The right or wrong of a person direction or position or belief ultimately is in the heart of the individual, and only God always sees in each heart.

If YOU see Christ's Church as simply "any other organized Christian church" then you don't know Christ.
HE built His Church and HE is the one who "organized" it.

The Church is the Body of Christ of which HE is the Head (Col. 1:18). It is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 22-23) and the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

[101G]

Is the Church Spirit or physical?

Matthew 16:16-19 KJV
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



If Spirit, then what of Matthew 16: 16-19 is the church built on?

Which Church did Saul persecute?

Addressing the OP only. in who's point of view. I'll hold God's point of view for now and take ours for now. we know that God is a Spirit, and Manifested physically... got that?. so God is Spiritual with a body, (see Luke 24:39). but remember this is a created world, "NOT THE REAL WORLD". now to go straight to the heart of your question, "Which Church did Saul persecute?". let's answer this with a question. say for instance I was on vacation in New York. and I was walking in central park. and I, I, I, I, was robbed, shot and killed. so who died, or was shot? the spirit or the body?. on the five o'clock new, the news caster said, 101G was shot and killed today in Central Park. ok, who was shot, 101G spirit, or 101G body?. why not the newscaster say 101G body was shot..... so did 101G spirit die? let's see (James 2:26a "For as the body without the spirit is dead"). so what's dead? the body. lets go further, the detectives retrieve my ID and find the hotel where I, I, I, I, was staying at and ask my wife to come down to the morgue to Identify MY, MY, MY, body. so who did she identify, me (spirit) or my body?. remember I'm only manifested in my body.

so the church (spirit) is in this world manifested in a house of flesh and bone which it's body. so what church Paul, then Saul persecute, flesh and bone, the house of the spirit, so spirit. when Saul persecute the body it was personal, scripture, Acts 9:4 & 5 "And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. and we know that JESUS is Spirit with a body of flesh and bone, (see Luke 24:39). Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". 2 Corinthians 10:3 "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh".

so the church is spirit manifested in flesh just as our God. for we're outward and inward as one. so in our view the church is spiritual and physical in this world, notice how I said that, in this world.

 

[amadeus]

If YOU see Christ's Church as simply "any other organized Christian church" then you don't know Christ.

You are not responding to what I wrote, but you must of course go the way that you believe. So must I. If both of us are sincerely surrendering to our Lord, will we not meet together with Him?

HE built His Church and HE is the one who "organized" it.

Certainly not in sense that men have organized their "churches".

The Church is the Body of Christ of which HE is the Head (Col. 1:18). It is the fullness of Christ (Eph. 22-23) and the pillar and foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).

I agree with this statement, which is simply scripture.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Matthew 16:17-19 KJV
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Flesh and blood is not what the Lord will build His church on. The church is Spirit. We confuse "body" with the flesh but the flesh is dead.

"The gates of hell shall not prevail against"...Spirit. As you see: Jesus' mortal body was beaten and punctured and bled. Our mortal bodies also get beaten and bleed. Disease and illness overcome the flesh. The flesh of this temporal flesh is not the subject of "the gates of hell will not prevail against it". We are promised a new spiritual glorified body.

As promised by the Lord: the gates of hell will not prevail against Spirit. That was proven by the bloody brutal acts of the cross. Spirit prevailed


Romans 6:6-11 KJV
[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him , that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: [9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. [10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. [11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Galatians 2:20-21 KJV
[20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [21] I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Church is not a building. Church is not supposedly crucified flesh. It is Spirit. New life, born of God- SPirit-that can not be seen with the visible eye except through "works" of the Holy spirit. Church is not the many demnominations and divisions and strife and boasting in works of the flesh or heavy debates...those are born of flesh. Mans opinions and ideas and fantasies. What we see is a church of flesh being torn apart into many fractions that happen through man's need to define "religion."
The gates of hell will overcome all those churches built on flesh.

To find the real spiritual church:

1 Corinthians 6:4-6 KJV
[4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? [6] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

"Set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church." Hear what they have to say. You know why? They are the ones that will speak if it is a church built on a foundation of ...LOVE. SPirit.

Or if it is all hype.

What would the "least esteemed" have to say about the physical church built with the hands of man?

Luke 16:15 KJV
[15] And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Certainly not in sense that men have organized their "churches".

but you are engaging with someone committed to a Church that can be defined with laws, and seen with the eye. We understand the difference in "in the world, but not of it" in a way that those who advocate Cloister actively resist, on some level; the one being enforced here, basically. So iow you are condemned to discuss at cross-purposes, Christianity versus Catholicism, two obviously different cultures imo, that both nonetheless produce saints

 

[BreadOfLife]

Certainly not in sense that men have organized their "churches".

In other words, Protestantism.
I couldn't agree with you more.

I agree with this statement, which is simply scripture.

It's simply true.
And there is only ONE Church - not tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering ones . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

but you are engaging with someone committed to a Church that can be defined with laws, and seen with the eye. We understand the difference in "in the world, but not of it" in a way that those who advocate Cloister actively resist, on some level; the one being enforced here, basically. So iow you are condemned to discuss at cross-purposes, Christianity versus Catholicism, two obviously different cultures imo, that both nonetheless produce saints

"Christianity versus Catholicism" is an oxymoron - but look at who I'm talking to.
Catholics were the very first Christians. The rest of you came some 1500 years later and beyond.

 

[bbyrd009]

"Christianity versus Catholicism" is an oxymoron

yes, that was the point BoL. But at the same time, they are different cultures now.
"Christianity versus Islam" is the same oxymoron however, right

 

[BreadOfLife]

yes, that was the point BoL. But at the same time, they are different cultures now.
"Christianity versus Islam" is the same oxymoron however, right

No - they are completely different belief systems.
YOUR blunder was the phrase "Christianity versus Catholicism".
Christianity IS Catholicism and vice versa.

The tens of thousands of Protestant sects are aberrations - or partial professions of Christianity.

 

[bbyrd009]

No - they are completely different belief systems.

so you say, yes.

YOUR blunder was the phrase "Christianity versus Catholicism".
Christianity IS Catholicism and vice versa.

i understand that you are not capable of grasping the irony intended in such statements as

So iow you are condemned to discuss at cross-purposes, Christianity versus Catholicism

BoL, and that irony is somewhat harder to get across in print anyway, ok, which is why i have gone to such lengths to plainly identify it.

The tens of thousands of Protestant sects are aberrations - or partial professions of Christianity.

unfortunately (for you; we are all ok with it, trust me) you are not the arbiter of truth, and we are not interested in Christianity twisted back into pagan practice, from a Protestant perspective anyway. So you say "completely different belief systems," but demonstrate that you are oblivious to Christian practices plainly outlined in Scripture--where so much else is not plain, at least those are--and boldly declare "different belief systems" to be the fault of everyone else, who does not--surprise--agree with you.

And i understand that you have justifications for following an earthly king, and relying on Peter as your rock, and calling another man "father," and confessing in dark closets to strangers, and tossing Passover in favor of fertility rites to pagan goddesses, andandand, ok, i am not saying that you don't.

But who is going to be interested if you then seek to throw stones at real Christians, do you think? Have you considered why you need Catholicism to be thought of as Christianity so badly, when it never was, and never will be? At least not by uninvolved parties, trust me.

You can call yourself a Christian all you like as far as i am concerned, but it just amounts to another little hypocrisy that makes no practical sense, at least to me, who has no objection to Catholics pursuing their beliefs.

Which i guess is not helping at all, lol, just ironic listening to a guy who is so obviously a Catholic, and therefore so obviously not a Christian, insist how they are Christians, but Muslims are condemned for "completely different belief systems."

Which i agree, don't get me wrong, but i agree because in my observations of devout Muslims, they blow most Christians away on Christian Practices, even as they accept that a real Christian is a brother to them--which i doubted, so i went and checked--yet they have no interest in being labelled "a Christian" like you do.

If i agreed that you were a Christian, would that validate you in some way that i am not aware of? It would, wouldn't it? That is really all you are seeking here, is it not, the commendation of other men?

Because obviously if you read Scripture, and really wanted to be considered a Christian by God--which is arguably not even what God wants--you would abandon your current practices, yes?

 

[BreadOfLife]

so you say, yes.

No - it's a fact. One professes Christ as the Savior of the World - and the other doesn't.
The fact that YOU can't tell the difference between them speaks VOLUMES . . .

i understand that you are not capable of grasping the irony intended in such statements as BoL, and that irony is somewhat harder to get across in print anyway, ok, which is why i have gone to such lengths to plainly identify it.

Nice back-pedaling . . .

unfortunately (for you; we are all ok with it, trust me) you are not the arbiter of truth, and we are not interested in Christianity twisted back into pagan practice, from a Protestant perspective anyway. So you say "completely different belief systems," but demonstrate that you are oblivious to Christian practices plainly outlined in Scripture--where so much else is not plain, at least those are--and boldly declare "different belief systems" to be the fault of everyone else, who does not--surprise--agree with you.

Sooooo, you DON'T understand that Christianity and Islam are different belief systems??
That explains a LOT.

As for the "pagan" rubbish regarding the Catholic Church - ignorant accusers have been hurling this charge for a long time and have NEVER been able to prove it . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

No - they are completely different belief systems.

comedy gold, iow. no offense meant

 

[bbyrd009]

No - it's a fact.

prove it

ha, and you are not under the law even a little bit, right.

See how Law = "Objective Truth" in a very real sense.
The truth is objective and real, and we just all need to consult you to discover what it is, right
So then if Eskimos do not eat vegetables, they are of course condemned, and as experience is showing us right now, kepha will shortly be along in his monkey suit to enforce your "truth" on the Eskimos, especially if there is any oil or gold to be had

 

[BreadOfLife]

ha, and you are not under the law even a little bit, right.

See how Law = "Objective Truth" in a very real sense.
The truth is objective and real, and we just all need to consult you to discover what it is, right

Nope - nobody needs to consult ME.

You need to consult Christ's Church, to who He have Supreme Earthly Authority (Matt, 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).