Church

[bbyrd009]

Nope - nobody needs to consult ME.

have a nice aft, gotta run

 

[mjrhealth]

You need to consult Christ's Church, to who He have Supreme Earthly Authority (Matt, 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

Just not the catholic or any of mens churches, they have no authority over anyone unless they give it to them, See here is an example of someone using teh bible to, scripture as some would put it, to mislead men,

Did not teh devil say to Jesus
" it is written".

 

[amadeus]

but you are engaging with someone committed to a Church that can be defined with laws, and seen with the eye. We understand the difference in "in the world, but not of it" in a way that those who advocate Cloister actively resist, on some level; the one being enforced here, basically. So iow you are condemned to discuss at cross-purposes, Christianity versus Catholicism, two obviously different cultures imo, that both nonetheless produce saints

I know enough of what the Catholic Church was when I was a part and what it is now to agree with you. Discussion is difficult because with exactly the same words we often we are expressing very different meanings. Communication?

But I have met a couple of honest Catholics who really will discuss things without so much bias as we often see here. Most Catholics won't even discuss such issues as we touch on here. But, this is why we see so few Catholics on this kind of forum. One good thing about this forum is that Catholics are allowed. This is not true for some forums. That always bothers me and I don't communicate on any of them now. If we believe we have any of God's truth, why should we be afraid to discuss what we believe?

A real difficulty of course is that some people, not only Catholics, don't want to discuss. They want to dictate or teach or both. Their students are to remain silent or at best give passing assent to what they are being fed. Perhaps to them we are as the women in the church and this is the church.

 

[bbyrd009]

No - it's a fact.

Nope - nobody needs to consult ME.

no, just give you a wide berth, or else be judged i guess. Those seem to be all of the choices available.

Sooooo, you DON'T understand that Christianity and Islam are different belief systems?

as different as Catholicism and Christianity, yes.

 

[BreadOfLife]

no, just give you a wide berth, or else be judged i guess. Those seem to be all of the choices available.
as different as Catholicism and Christianity, yes.

And there's that silly oxymoron again - but I'm not surprised . . .

 

[bbyrd009]

And there's that silly oxymoron again - but I'm not surprised . . .

but neither are you willing to address, see?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I know enough of what the Catholic Church was when I was a part and what it is now to agree with you. Discussion is difficult because with exactly the same words we often we are expressing very different meanings. Communication?

But I have met a couple of honest Catholics who really will discuss things without so much bias as we often see here. Most Catholics won't even discuss such issues as we touch on here. But, this is why we see so few Catholics on this kind of forum. One good thing about this forum is that Catholics are allowed. This is not true for some forums. That always bothers me and I don't communicate on any of them now. If we believe we have any of God's truth, why should we be afraid to discuss what we believe?

A real difficulty of course is that some people, not only Catholics, don't want to discuss. They want to dictate or teach or both. Their students are to remain silent or at best give passing assent to what they are being fed. Perhaps to them we are as the women in the church and this is the church.

I disagree.

Most Catholics I know are MORE than willing to discuss matters of faith.
However - what you and pothers here call mere "discussion" is usually just falsehood-laden diatribes and fairy tales.

Being a cradle-Catholic, I am used to this kind of garbage. However, I got tired of seeing people like my own siblings leave the Church because of the same rubbish I see on this forum. I made it my mission to expose these kinds of lies - and the anti-Catholics who espouse them. I can't tell you how many people - Catholic and non-Catholic who have thanked me for explaining what the Church really teaches vs. the lies they've been told.

It's not "discussion" that we object to - it's blatant lies and myths.

 

[ScottA]

Is the Church Spirit or physical?

Matthew 16:16-19 KJV
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. [18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.



If Spirit, then what of Matthew 16: 16-19 is the church built on?

Which Church did Saul persecute?

Those who hear His voice, hear what the spirit says:

• "My words are spirit."
• "I go to the Father."
• "Where I am going you cannot go."
• "You must be born again of the spirit of God."
• "God is spirit."
• "Emanuel, God with us."
• "I and the Father are One."
• "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."
• "Father, into your hands I commit My spirit."
• "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
• "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
• "God is spirit."

Can there be any doubt that the church is spirit, just as God is spirit. Christ's church is built upon the Rock of ages (capital R)...not Peter, but the Son, according to the word of God:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed."

...Peter was the "object" of Matthew 16 - not the "Subject."

1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[amadeus]

I disagree.

Most Catholics I know are MORE than willing to discuss matters of faith.

This the problem. What you speak of is not really discussion. You might have such a discussion with another practicing Catholic but with someone outside of your church you really don't even listen. That is not discussion as I understand it.

However - what you and pothers here call mere "discussion" is usually just falsehood-laden diatribes and fairy tales.

I was going to say that you have been properly brain washed, but that would not be fair if you sincerely believe the RCC is right and you are striving to follow it.

What is unfortunate is your unwillingness to practice charity/love as per I Cor 13:4-7 with someone who has a different set of beliefs than you. I do believe in God and His Son and strive to practice what I believe. Consider what Solomon wrote with respect to your own attitude without regard to who is right or wrong with literal doctrines:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.Prov 21:2

God will always judge a person by his heart rather than his doctrines or church affiliation. Are you able to even try to do the same?

Being a cradle-Catholic, I am used to this kind of garbage. However, I got tired of seeing people like my own siblings leave the Church because of the same rubbish I see on this forum. I made it my mission to expose these kinds of lies - and the anti-Catholics who espouse them. I can't tell you how many people - Catholic and non-Catholic who have thanked me for explaining what the Church really teaches vs. the lies they've been told.

It's not "discussion" that we object to - it's blatant lies and myths.

Over the years I have learned many things about the Catholic Church that I never knew when I was a Catholic myself. Mostly I learned them from a well versed Catholic on another forum who less kind than you are. I have never had ought against Catholic or the RCC that I have purposely tired to throw in their face. I have on the other hand tried to speak only the truth as I know it with regard to what the RCC is whether I personally agree with them or not. I have too many fond memories of the priests and nuns and Catholic friends from my early years to ever do that.

Having said that I still again even consider becoming Catholic again based upon your rude attitude expressed against people who are simply stating their beliefs as you state yours.

All of us, Catholic or Protestant or Other who really believe in God and the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus, have something good on our side, even if we may be wrong in part. To belittle someone and call their beliefs rubbish rather than simply explaining what you see as error with specific details is hard for anyone to take. That is not going to win anyone to you or your church.

Because some people do misuse and abuse the RCC without good cause you apparently quickly jump on anyone who disagrees with you even if they are really striving to be charitable.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Those who hear His voice, hear what the spirit says:

• "My words are spirit."
• "I go to the Father."
• "Where I am going you cannot go."
• "You must be born again of the spirit of God."
• "God is spirit."
• "Emanuel, God with us."
• "I and the Father are One."
• "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father."
• "Father, into your hands I commit My spirit."
• "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
• "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
• "God is spirit."

Can there be any doubt that the church is spirit, just as God is spirit. Christ's church is built upon the Rock of ages (capital R)...not Peter, but the Son, according to the word of God:

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed."

...Peter was the "object" of Matthew 16 - not the "Subject."

1 Peter 2:5
you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 51:1-2 - Abraham is called "the rock". He is the subject of these verses.
Was the Holy spirit lying to Isaiah?

Matt. 16:18- Simon is called "the rock". He is absolutely the subject of this verse - and I'll prove it to you.

What Jesus told Simon in Matt. 16:18-19 is a threefold blessing.
1. Blessed are you Simon bar Jonah
2. Your are Kepha and on this Kepha I will build my church
3. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven

YOU would have us believe that it was a blessing, then an insult - followed by another blessing.
1. Blessed are you Simon bar Jonah
2. You tiny, insignificant pebble
3. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven

No - try as you and other anti-Catholics might, Peter is not only the subject here - but he is the fulfillment of the OT type that was Eliakim. Notice the similarity of the blessing that God gives Eliakim:

Isaiah 22:20–22 - In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt. 16:18-19 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

There is simply no getting around the Scriptural facts here.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This the problem. What you speak of is not really discussion. You might have such a discussion with another practicing Catholic but with someone outside of your church you really don't even listen. That is not discussion as I understand it.


I was going to say that you have been properly brain washed, but that would not be fair if you sincerely believe the RCC is right and you are striving to follow it.

What is unfortunate is your unwillingness to practice charity/love as per I Cor 13:4-7 with someone who has a different set of beliefs than you. I do believe in God and His Son and strive to practice what I believe. Consider what Solomon wrote with respect to your own attitude without regard to who is right or wrong with literal doctrines:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.Prov 21:2

God will always judge a person by his heart rather than his doctrines or church affiliation. Are you able to even try to do the same?

Over the years I have learned many things about the Catholic Church that I never knew when I was a Catholic myself. Mostly I learned them from a well versed Catholic on another forum who less kind than you are. I have never had ought against Catholic or the RCC that I have purposely tired to throw in their face. I have on the other hand tried to speak only the truth as I know it with regard to what the RCC is whether I personally agree with them or not. I have too many fond memories of the priests and nuns and Catholic friends from my early years to ever do that.

Having said that I still again even consider becoming Catholic again based upon your rude attitude expressed against people who are simply stating their beliefs as you state yours.

All of us, Catholic or Protestant or Other who really believe in God and the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus, have something good on our side, even if we may be wrong in part. To belittle someone and call their beliefs rubbish rather than simply explaining what you see as error with specific details is hard for anyone to take. That is not going to win anyone to you or your church.

Because some people do misuse and abuse the RCC without good cause you apparently quickly jump on anyone who disagrees with you even if they are really striving to be charitable.

And that's a complete falsehood.

I only expose people who LIE about the Church. Nine of my twelve siblings are Protestant and we have many charitable conversations regarding faith. They know better than to lie because they know they'll be exposed. Unfortunately, most of the people here seem almost eager to be exposed.

People like me are only considered "rude" by anti-Catholics because we expose their lies. Every liar hates to be exposed.
Why is it that they don't consider us "rude" when we talk about sports or any other subject?

You're no different than the other anti-Catholics here because you pretend that you guys aren't doing or saying anything wrong - you're just trying to have a "discussion." Then, you accuse the Catholics of being "rude" for correcting you when you spew your falsehoods.

You speak of "love and charity" yet you guys don't practice it.
Can you say, "Hypocrisy"?

Shame on you.

 

[amadeus]

And that's a complete falsehood.

I only expose people who LIE about the Church. Nine of my twelve siblings are Protestant and we have many charitable conversations regarding faith. They know better than to lie because they know they'll be exposed. Unfortunately, most of the people here seem almost eager to be exposed.

People like me are only considered "rude" by anti-Catholics because we expose their lies. Every liar hates to be exposed.
Why is it that they don't consider us "rude" when we talk about sports or any other subject?

You're no different than the other anti-Catholics here because you pretend that you guys aren't doing or saying anything wrong - you're just trying to have a "discussion." Then, you accuse the Catholics of being "rude" for correcting you when you spew your falsehoods.

You speak of "love and charity" yet you guys don't practice it.
Can you say, "Hypocrisy"?

Shame on you.

Give God the glory my friend for He alone is always worthy!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Just not the catholic or any of mens churches, they have no authority over anyone unless they give it to them, See here is an example of someone using teh bible to, scripture as some would put it, to mislead men,
Did not teh devil say to Jesus
" it is written".

So, when YOU give Scripture verses to make your point - are YOU like the Devil??
Can YOU say,"Hypocrite"??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Give God the glory my friend for He alone is always worthy!

Every time I rebuke somebody for lying - I ALWAYS give the glory to God . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

So, when YOU give Scripture verses to make your point - are YOU like the Devil??
Can YOU say,"Hypocrite"??

I dont need to you do it every 5 minutes, I bow to your expertise on teh matter. Apparently we are all hypocrits according to you.

 

[ScottA]

No - try as you and other anti-Catholics might, Peter is not only the subject here - but he is the fulfillment of the OT type that was Eliakim. Notice the similarity of the blessing that God gives Eliakim:

Isaiah 22:20–22 - In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt. 16:18-19 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

There is simply no getting around the Scriptural facts here.

It's worse with you than I thought. Not only have you misinterpreted Matthew 16, but also Isaiah who spoke of "Eliakim the son of Hilkiah", meaning "Raised of God."

First you follow those who follow men instead of God, and then you steal His prophetic word which points to Christ.

 

[mjrhealth]

It's worse with you than I thought. Not only have you misinterpreted Matthew 16, but also Isaiah who spoke of "Eliakim the son of Hilkiah", meaning "Raised of God."

First you follow those who follow men instead of God, and then you steel His prophetic word which points to Christ.

You figurerd him out,

remember what the devil said to Jesus

"it is written" no wonder so many are messed up.

 

[bbyrd009]

ha psssh, you guys both love it, you'll be feeding him again today lol

Every time I rebuke somebody for lying - I ALWAYS give the glory to God . . .

i mean Jesus what more do you need to know

 

[theQuestion]

Hey, I didn't call Simon "Rock" - Jesus did.
As for people being "restricted" from reading the Bible - you need to study your history.

Upon THIS Rock.
Likely, Jesus hands pointed to himself, for Jesus IS identified as the "Rock" (foundation of well built homes in those days).
The Governmental Church of Rome corrupted everything it touched.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Upon THIS Rock.
Likely, Jesus hands pointed to himself, for Jesus IS identified as the "Rock" (foundation of well built homes in those days).
The Governmental Church of Rome corrupted everything it touched.

Again - you are adding to Scripture that which is not there.

It doesn't even imply that Jesus pointed to Himself as the "Kepha". Nobody called Jesus "Kepha" - they called Simon "Kepha."
That's why he is called "Cephas" in Paul's letters.

Besides - I have shown on numerous posts that Jesus isn't the only person in the Bible referred to as "Rock."
Isaiah 51:1 refers to Abraham as the "Rock."

As for the "governmental" Church of Rome - every time church leaders get involved with governments - bad things are bound to happen. The Church was never rotten - some of the people within the Church were. Jesus warned that bad people would come from inside His Church (Matt. 7:15-20). so I don't know why people are surprised.