Cleansing by the Word

[Lizbeth]

I feel that if they could only just grasp that one thing instead of glossing over it and barely seeing as they read it, what you have said so well and precisely here above, it would act as an instant shot of WD40 that would loosen them from their horribly stuck position and sweep them into better things than they have yet known. It is a place of such improvement to take the lower seat with sheer gratitude that He has even thought and cared to place a seat there for you, that you find a rest from constantly defending your false and illusive bridge to nowhere.

What exactly are you calling a false and illusive bridge to nowhere.....I hope that isn't what you are calling faith in Jesus...? There is no problem with the bridge..........the only problem is if people just stand looking at it instead of actually using it to take ground. As per the servant in the parable of the talents who buried his measure.

 

[Lizbeth]

I guess I was seeing David using the word silver because all the law and prophets were speaking of He who was to come and bring the better covenant which is the gold. That’s how my mind saw it.

Well, it is all HIS word....that will never pass away....it has been thoroughly refined - purified/perfected, tested and tried - proven to be true. As the Word made flesh (Jesus) was tested and tried, proven and perfected through suffering and death.

 

[Episkopos]

I guess I was seeing David using the word silver because all the law and prophets were speaking of He who was to come and bring the better covenant which is the gold. That’s how my mind saw it.

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Ps. 12:6

 

[ProDeo]

and walk in victory over sin.

I see progress, the word "total" is missing.



Neh 8:10 - And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength.”

 

[MostlyConfused]

The words of the Lord are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." Ps. 12:6

There’s that 7 again. Find it everywhere all of a sudden.

 

[ScottA]

My dear brother Scott. The bible ONLY speaks of hierarchy...unless one is speaking of the righteous who inherit the nations. But even among the precious few saints there are different glories....gold, silver...like an Olympic race. Gold has more glory than silver. The 30, 60, 100 fold.

Who do the saints rule over??? When a man is given rule over one city or ten...who does he rule over?


The saints are saved onto glory. Believers and doers are saved through MERCY.

And what of those who are not saints...well, there is more of a uniformity among those who are not among God's chosen. Like in the parable of the denarius. That is in stark contrast to the other 2 parables that state that God is looking for a return on a previous investment...the talents and the pounds.

Look at this...

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thess 1:10

Are you going to say that that there is only one group being described here?



What of the nations of them which are saved? What of the kings that bring THEIR glory into it??? Who are the kings...and who are they ruling over?

This is much like a lot of what goes on here in debate. One person lists reasons and says it surely means one thing, and another lists other reasons and says it all means something else.

But you have mostly listed the factors of our approach to perfection. Even the "saved", though they seemingly receive more and less, only do so because they have not yet fully completed their walk. And even the promises of God would also seem to indicate some receive more and less also. But what does He say? "Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward."

As for those rewards and greater blessings or crowns bestowed, are there no such rewards even in this world and this life for those who serve or walk righteously? Surely, there are, of which there are many witnesses.

Still...what is lacking, even for those who carry the accolades (some of whom do so arrogantly)? They lack--we all lack--the "all in all" that awaits all who believe. Even if they die before receiving anything but sorrow, or stumble over the finish line having failed all--what is waiting--is "all."

"All in all."

 

[Episkopos]

This is much like a lot of what goes on here in debate. One person lists reasons and says it surely means one thing, and another lists other reasons and says it all means something else.

But you have mostly listed the factors of our approach to perfection. Even the "saved", though they seemingly receive more and less, only do so because they have not yet fully completed their walk. And even the promises of God would also seem to indicate some receive more and less also. But what does He say? "Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward."

As for those rewards and greater blessings or crowns bestowed, are there no such rewards even in this world and this life for those who serve or walk righteously? Surely, there are, of which there are many witnesses.

Still...what is lacking, even for those who carry the accolades (some of whom do so arrogantly)? They lack--we all lack--the "all in all" that awaits all who believe. Even if they die before receiving anything but sorrow, or stumble over the finish line having failed all--what is waiting--is "all."

"All in all."

Good points. However we see the ALL functioning right now. How we are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness....right now by the washing of the word. We are led into ALL truth by the Spirit.

Naturally we lack the glorified bodies that await those who measure up to God's standard. In that case we will have ALL that God wants to give His faithful ones. So that is the piece that is missing.

I will leave you with one other ALL that concerns our discussion.

I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me.

So then our ALL, and the ALL that He provides to us now through Christ, can be added to His FUTURE all so that we are no longer mortals...but eternal beings....so that God becomes our all in ALL.

<><

 

[ScottA]

Good points. However we see the ALL functioning right now. How we are cleansed from ALL unrighteousness....right now by the washing of the word. We are led into ALL truth by the Spirit.

Naturally we lack the glorified bodies that await those who measure up to God's standard. In that case we will have ALL that God wants to give His faithful ones. So that is the piece that is missing.

I will leave you with one other ALL that concerns our discussion.

I can do ALL things through Christ who strengthens me.

So then our ALL, and the ALL that He provides to us now through Christ, can be added to His FUTURE all so that we are no longer mortals...but eternal beings....so that God becomes out all in ALL.

<><

Be careful with the "glorified body" idea, as glorified means "the glory of the Father", which is spirit and exists where flesh and blood "cannot" inherit. Which is not less than we have ever known and even loved about these bodies, that we might hope and desire that they be glorified much as they are, but greater by far. These bodies that we have inherited as children of sin, are not the bodies that were in the garden before sin, but those after being covered/revealed by "skins" from God, the object revealing of our sin.

But yes! Even now we can walk in righteousness! However, the "strength" of Christ is required unto the end...because that walk of righteousness means carrying our old man of flesh and blood until the full "once to die" order is completely fulfilled, leaving us to walk, as it is written, as one with our "right foot on the sea and [our] left foot on the land", both in the world, and in the heavenly places of Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Be careful with the "glorified body" idea, as glorified means "the glory of the Father", which is spirit and exists were flesh and blood "cannot" inherit. Which is not less than we have ever known and even loved about these bodies, that we might hope and desire that they be glorified much as they are, but greater by far. These bodies that we have inherited as children of sin, are not the bodies that were in the garden before sin, but those after being covered/revealed by "skins" from God, the object revealing of our sin.

But yes! Even now we can walk in righteousness! However, the "strength" of Christ is required unto the end...because that walk of righteousness means carrying our old man of flesh and blood until the full "once to die" order is completely fulfilled, leaving us to walk, as it is written, as one with our "right foot on the sea and [our] left foot on the land", both in the world, and in the heavenly places of Christ.

This is where the power of the cross is revealed. Without the power of the cross putting down the old sin nature there would be nothing having us to CLEAVE to God to remain where He is...to ABIDE in Christ.

What is lacking in the modern religious culture is the experience of the full measure of the grace of God...the POWER from heaven to walk as Jesus walked.

The power of the cross takes away the sin nature...and the grace of God empowers the inner man to walk in a FULL victory over sin. (I put that last part in for Pro Deo! ;) )

Paul gloried in the cross because it had the power to separate him unto God.

Most believers by far are stuck in Romans 7...where the outer carnal man is NOT yet broken or crucified. When that crucifying of the outer man sin nature happens, as Paul relates, it is no longer I that lives...but Christ. In Him is no sin.

There is no way around the truth of that...IF you want to be faithful to God's intent.

All that we have after that is a testimony either of a full victory over sin...or else a testimony of one who has never known such victory. Those are the only 2 choices.

 

[ProDeo]

The power of the cross takes away the sin nature...and the grace of God empowers the inner man to walk in a FULL victory over sin. (I put that last part in for Pro Deo! ;) )

Living sinless is not in Scripture.

How many times do you need to fall before you get it ?

Today you maybe are fine, tomorrow you can be in trouble, life is complex and has its many challenges. Peter denied Jesus 3 times when his life was in danger.

 

[ScottA]

This is where the power of the cross is revealed. Without the power of the cross putting down the old sin nature there would be nothing having us to CLEAVE to God to remain where He is...to ABIDE in Christ.

What is lacking in the modern religious culture is the experience of the full measure of the grace of God...the POWER from heaven to walk as Jesus walked.

The power of the cross takes away the sin nature...and the grace of God empowers the inner man to walk in a FULL victory over sin. (I put that last part in for Pro Deo! ;) )

Paul gloried in the cross because it had the power to separate him unto God.

Most believers by far are stuck in Romans 7...where the outer carnal man is NOT yet broken or crucified. When that crucifying of the outer man sin nature happens, as Paul relates, it is no longer I that lives...but Christ. In Him is no sin.

There is no way around the truth of that...IF you want to be faithful to God's intent.

All that we have after that is a testimony either of a full victory over sin...or else a testimony of one who has never known such victory. Those are the only 2 choices.

We are still dancing on the line that is between the flesh and the Spirit.

One of the big misunderstandings that causes this to remain, is the idea that our "sin nature" can be fixed. That is not the salvation message.

On the contrary it has been sentenced "once to die"--not once when we receive Christ, and once again when this body of sin and death actually passes. But "once", period. A new nature doesn't spring into our old flesh body, it is born within as its own different body--not the old transformed, but a new creation entirely. This is the mystery of "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" and the confirmation that asks "what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" Such is the word of truth "rightly divided."

The confusion comes with the many words of counsel and help for those standing before the great divide that exist and wars one against the other within. Many passages are worded to help walk us through from the one side, to the other--not that they should ultimately be mixed, or thought to apply both to the old and the new. The hope of compromising language, is not to be considered gospel, but necessary in the gospel--that those who spoke and penned the words "might save some." Indeed, much of that was done by Paul, as he had the largest and farthest bridge to cross over in preaching to the gentiles. But parts of it are merely cold-calling, and long-line fishing language, unlike simply dropping the net on the other side of the boat.

Israel did the same thing with the Law--they looked to the letter rather than the spirit of the Law, and missed so much they crucified Messiah. But now it is us, the Church, in the hot seat--and what--should we too read the words and think that darkness somehow is fixed and made righteous? Again, that is not the gospel message. On the contrary--the glaring reality of the gospel--is that the one must die and only the other (the Spirit) shall live.

And then, yes, that can and does happen [spiritually] when we are born again of the spirit of God--but--if the flesh is still left for a time--it does not ultimately survive--only the Spirit survives.

 

[ProDeo]

We are still dancing on the line that is between the flesh and the Spirit.

One of the big misunderstandings that causes this to remain, is the idea that our "sin nature" can be fixed. That is not the salvation message.

Exactly Scott.

 

[Lizbeth]

Living sinless is not in Scripture.

How many times do you need to fall before you get it ?

Today you maybe are fine, tomorrow you can be in trouble, life is complex and has its many challenges. Peter denied Jesus 3 times when his life was in danger.

I think of it that we still "have" sin because it still resides/exists in the body that is dead because of sin. But when someone is walking in the Spirit they are not "committing" any sin because of walking above the old man and sin, and they are instead walking in (putting on) the new man which is without sin (having been created in the image of He who created it). At such times the old man is put under our/Christ's feet (rendered inert) and we are separated from it, while being carried along by the Holy Spirit. So one may be walking sinlessly, even though one still does "have" sin in the old man and flesh. I hope that is accurate, although of course different people might think of it in different words so to speak.

 

[Episkopos]

We are still dancing on the line that is between the flesh and the Spirit.

One of the big misunderstandings that causes this to remain, is the idea that our "sin nature" can be fixed. That is not the salvation message.

The cross of Christ doesn't "fix" the sin nature....it crucifies it. It puts it into remission. It renders it ineffective. The big misunderstanding is the power of the cross.

As long as the eyes stay on Christ...the real Christ...once a person is given access to the spiritual realm...and the inner man continues to put no confidence in the flesh or his place in this world...then the power of the cross keeps the outer man sin nature crucified, But a living sacrifice can crawl off the altar. We always have free agency.

The keeping power of God by the grace of God is sufficient to keep us in a walk without sin...always. But one needs to have faith. When Peter started to sink in the water after having made his way to Jesus ...He said...why did you doubt?

On the contrary it has been sentenced "once to die"--not once when we receive Christ, and once again when this body of sin and death actually passes. But "once", period.

You are confusing a physical death here with a spiritual death or separation from God. The "soul that sins it shall die" is not a physical death. And the free gift of life in Christ is not a physical life.

A new nature doesn't spring into our old flesh body, it is born within as its own different body--not the old transformed, but a new creation entirely. This is the mystery of "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" and the confirmation that asks "what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?" Such is the word of truth "rightly divided."

Circumcision requires a cutting away of the flesh. No matter what happens to the inner man, if the outer man husk remains intact, the life that is embedded within cannot come out and bear fruit.

The confusion comes with the many words of counsel and help for thus standing before the great divide that exist and wars one against the other within. Many passages are worded to help walk us through from the one side, to the other--not that they should ultimately be mixed, or thought to apply both to the old and the new. The hope of compromising language, is not to be considered gospel, but necessary in the gospel--that those who spoke and penned the words "might save some." Indeed, much of that was done by Paul, as he had the largest and farthest bridge to cross over in preaching to the gentiles. But parts of it are merely cold-calling, and long-line fishing language, unlike simply dropping the net on the other side of the boat.

Israel did the same thing with the Law--they looked to the letter rather than the spirit of the Law, and missed so much they crucified Messiah. But now it is us, the Church, in the hot seat--and what--should we too read the words and think that darkness somehow is fixed and made righteous? Again, that is not the gospel message. On the contrary--the glaring reality of the gospel--is that the one must die and only the other (the Spirit) shall live.

And then, yes, that can and does happen [spiritually] when we are born again of the spirit of God--but--if the flesh is still left for a time--it does not ultimately survive--only the Spirit survives.

If we don't put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit, then we will die. You would have the race to be over at the first step. But that very idea causes people to fail the grace of God. Many will be cut off eternally from the presence of God. And even among those who try desperately to enter the kingdom will not be able. Many are called but few are chosen.

Let your understanding line up with the bible and the true narrative being presented. Don't try overlaying your own logic to it.

Anything that is of Christ is miraculous in nature. With God all things are possible.

 

[Laurina]

The cross of Christ doesn't "fix" the sin nature....it crucifies it. It puts it into remission. It renders it ineffective. The big misunderstanding is the power of the cross.

As long as the eyes stay on Christ...the real Christ...once a person is given access to the spiritual realm...and the inner man continues to put no confidence in the flesh or his place in this world...then the power of the cross keeps the outer man sin nature crucified, But a living sacrifice can crawl off the altar. We always have free agency.

The keeping power of God by the grace of God is sufficient to keep us in a walk without sin...always. But one needs to have faith. When Peter started to sink in the water after having made his way to Jesus ...He said...why did you doubt?




You are confusing a physical death here with a spiritual death or separation from God. The "soul that sins it shall die" is not a physical death. And the free gift of life in Christ is not a physical life.


Circumcision requires a cutting away of the flesh. No matter what happens to the inner man, if the outer man husk remains intact, the life that is embedded within cannot come out and bear fruit.

If we don't put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit, then we will die. You would have the race to be over at the first step. But that very idea causes people to fail the grace of God. Many will be cut off eternally from the presence of God. And even among those who try desperately to enter the kingdom will not be able. Many are called but few are chosen.

Let your understanding line up with the bible and the true narrative being presented. Don't try overlaying your own logic to it.

Anything that is of Christ is miraculous in nature. With God all things are possible.

Mark 9:23 "Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth."

 

[ScottA]

The cross of Christ doesn't "fix" the sin nature....it crucifies it. It puts it into remission. It renders it ineffective. The big misunderstanding is the power of the cross.

I gotta stop you right there--there is no "remission"--"It is finished."

But then, within we are called to "reign with Christ", which Paul said is done by bringing what remains of our old body of sin and death (and nature) under "subjection" of our new spirit body within...and "preserver" unto the end.

 

[Episkopos]

I gotta stop you right there--there is no "remission"--"It is finished."

But then, within we are called to "reign with Christ", which Paul said is done by bringing what remains of our old body of sin and death (and nature) under "subjection" of our new spirit body within...and "preserver" unto the end.

The "it is finished" is Jesus reconciling the world to Himself. What is not finished is any individual race. Whoever endures to the end will be saved. And saved means there are still 3 possibilities.

The kingdom of God is like leaven in 3 measures of meal. And the holy city is to be divided in 3 parts.

All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

But among the saved are

1. The saints

2. The righteous

3. The filthy...rejected ones ...into outer darkness.

Consequently...Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.