Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[GerhardEbersoehn]

That does not change that what she in that place wrote was not true and because true is not applicable to anybody, myself one although I am a nobody. The same for you.

Even a false prophet can make some true statements and be right about some things. Even a clock with a dead battery is right twice a day.

Mailmandan is never wrong.Period

 

[Brakelite]

I dont "reject" the commandments.

What i do is recognize that the commandments have no ability to impart or impute righteousness, which is why God "found fault" with them.

""""""""God, finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant"""""

""""""For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the = SECOND"""""

Seriously? God found fault with His own law, which Paul said was holy, just, and good?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, additionally regarding the Sabbath, let me say this. The Sabbath in the old covenant is kept according to the code or to the letter ~ literally and physically so to speak. The Sabbath in the new covenant is kept according to the Spirit and spiritually so to speak. Though whether the Christian want to keep it literally and physically as well, in like manner as was in the old covenant or in the custom of the Jews or not, is of no matter. For as long as he do so by faith and keep it according to the Spirit.

The Jews could well have kept the laws of the OT in a legalist "I must obey" type attitude. And when they failed, they knew they had a "get out of jail free card" grazing behind the house. None of that would have been from love or a genuine desire to honour God. To those, and also to those today who have the same attitude...see below...

When the Lord said to the Samaritan woman, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father”, and “God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”, what do you understand He was saying to the woman?

Tong
R1729

 

[amadeus]

Seriously? God found fault with His own law, which Paul said was holy, just, and good?

LOL... no mistakes on the part of God for certain:

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

 

[mailmandan]

Mailmandan is never wrong.Period

None of us are never wrong.

 

[amadeus]

None of us are never wrong.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

 

[mailmandan]

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

That’s why we need to humble ourselves before the Lord.

 

[mailmandan]

Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way which seems right to a person, But its end is the way of death.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Seriously? God found fault with His own law, which Paul said was holy, just, and good?

I have posted this before From Time to time.....seems like I can’t post it too often....


Many Christians give lip service to the fact they live in the New Covenant.

The truth however is that because they fail to realise they are no longer under the law they are really still living in an Old Covenant reality.

Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

Well there you have it… 37 scriptures that make a very convincing arguement.

 

[amadeus]

That’s why we need to humble ourselves before the Lord.

Amen!

 

[amadeus]

Proverbs 14:12 - There is a way which seems right to a person, But its end is the way of death.

We need to be led in order to be right in the eyes of God:

"I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23

Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts." Zech 4:6

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom 8:14

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
There is distinction between the OT covenant and the NT covenant. That is obvious I have to say. But the distinction does not make any difference regarding the grace of salvation and of faith. The grace of salvation and of faith is the same for both times. Salvation is still by grace through faith. The way I see it the difference is in the form, manner, time, and person (mediator) by which grace and faith comes and is given.

God did not change His covenant with man, in His chosen, Abraham and to his “seed”. What covenant was changed is that which He made with Israel whose mediator was Moses.

What do you say is/are the difference/s between the Old covenant and the New? What is for you the main difference between the two?

Well, we agree that God does not change. So He was the same God in the OT as He is now in the NT. But systems changed because before Christ it could not be shown that Man had redemption yet. And after Christ provided redemption, the system had to change.

I don't say that faith changed from OT to NT. I'm just saying that the object OT people were hoping for was not there yet. Messiah had not yet come. So their faith was premised on things that were temporary, and only looking forward to Christ. Today all that's changed. The OT props are now gone and unnecessary. Christ has come.

My view is that the salvation of God was and is by grace through faith. I don’t see any change regarding that.

My view is that, the faith through which God saves also did not change.

Tong2020 said: ↑
It seems that there is need for us to find out what is our view of law and of faith, so we fully get and appreciate what each of us is saying. Else we just end up going in circles and repeating ourselves which leaves us learning nothing from one another except for our differences and disagreement.

Law is not faith and faith is not law. Just to put that in context, faith and law there is with regards the relationship between God and man. However, this is not as simple as it is stated. I don’t know if I can explain my understanding of it clearly.

But we can't discuss what we each understand if your view of the Scriptures is premised on a point that I can't accept. I don't believe "Law is not faith" holds from Paul's point of view. Again, he was abbreviating the idea that the Law is not "faith in Christ." Law is not "faith for eternal life." It was, if anything, faith that falls short until Christ comes. It is valid only because its object will come, though it is not yet

Well then, if you believe that law is faith and I believe that law is not faith, then I am afraid it will be difficult for us to have a meeting of mind on that then. Anyway, let’s just pray and hope that God will intervene that somehow we would have the same mind on that.

So, moving on, now that Christ had come, I think we will agree that there is still a covenant between God and His people, and there is still a law given to them. Only this time, God had written His law in the minds and hearts of the people.

Now, the questions:

1. What is the law for?
2. Is the law faith?

Tong2020 said: ↑
I see faith this way. Faith comes from God and is given to man. It comes to man when God sends His word to him and through various ways. He gives it to him by enabling the man to hear and understand the word He sends to him and persuades him to accept it as coming from God. It is by which God saves man. And faith is what assures (as he is enabled ~ power) the man from making the same mistake of the first Adam. Also, I’d like to add this, though it speaks of faith quite out of the context of this writing, that faith is, to the man, the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Not really getting what you're driving at, but I think faith was faith in either OT or NT. Faith hopes for what it does not yet see. Faith by necessity believes in an invisible God. Even after Christ has come, we still must have faith in an invisible God.

But yes, your view of "faith" is exactly what my definition is. Faith is a response--a positive response--to a living word from God to our heart. It my simply be a word from God in our conscience. But it is how God directs us to Himself, giving us a knowledge of who He is and the fact He is with us. When God guides us, we exercise faith in His word, and respond in love to it.

I must say that for me, "faith" is also man's reaching out to God for forgiveness--something he cannot get for himself or by himself. He depends on God to forgive him, expressing sorrow and offering repentance. He would give up going it alone for continuing on into eternity in partnership with God.

This also is "faith." It stood in contrast to trying to earn things under the Law that brought earthly blessings, but could not bring eternal life. No flawed human being could earn eternal life. He was cursed to death because of his compromised Sin Nature.

While you say “But yes, your view of "faith" is exactly what my definition is.”, you have faith to mean more which I don’t have in my take of faith. So, I think that is a problem.

Tong2020 said: ↑
I see Law this way. Law comes from God and is given to man as well. It comes to man through revelation by God to man and through various ways. It is one of many by which God reveals His character and His will ~ His person so to speak. It is also one of many by which God teaches the man for who he (man) is. It is also one of many by which God keep man under guard from sin, at least until He accomplishes His salvation of mankind, and makes all things new.

Yes, the Law was also the word of God to Israel in a certain dispensation of time. That word was time-limited to that dispensation of time. We are not under that Law, nor is anybody else, because Christ has come. He also is the word of God. But he is the eternal word, whereas the Law was limited in scope, and did not provide eternal life. It merely directed Israel towards the hope of eternal life, when Messiah would come.

This is where we differ with regards law. For law is not the word of God just as faith is not the word of God. The word of God is different from law and faith. So that’s another problem we have.

Tong
R1730

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sorry but however popular this fantasy may be it is still just that--FANTASY.

Where else in the Bible do you find the ten commandment law being referred to as a "ministration?" If 2 Corinthians 3 means the passing away of the ten commandments, then what does Romans 7:12 mean? And where else in 2 Corinthians 3 do you find the blood of Jesus mentioned?

What was fading away was not the ten commandments,
but the glory of Moses countenance.

Do you know of any other laws that were written in stone?

 

[Randy Kluth]

My view is that the salvation of God was and is by grace through faith. I don’t see any change regarding that.

My view is that, the faith through which God saves also did not change.

I've said this before, but you don't seem to get it. Faith is the same, but it is in different time periods, one before and one after Christ's work. When faith was before Christ's work, its object was God, but the system it relied on was inadequate, and only temporary. After Christ came, the object of faith came to be Christ, who had not yet been available under the Old Covenant, and whose system could not yet be put into effect. Is that clear enough?

Well then, if you believe that law is faith and I believe that law is not faith, then I am afraid it will be difficult for us to have a meeting of mind on that then. Anyway, let’s just pray and hope that God will intervene that somehow we would have the same mind on that.

I appreciate your brotherly spirit on this. However, the way you're phrasing this is not quite right. Obviously, I'm not disagreeing with Paul when he said the Law is not of faith. What I'm saying is that Paul was using a technical definition of faith. Otherwise, another definition of faith could easily be said to be "of the Law." For example, obedience to the Law could easily be said to be "of faith." And that's because it is by faith that a man would appeal, through the sacrifices of the Law, for God's mercy.

So when Paul said the Law is not of faith, what he really meant was that the Law had works that fell short of faith for eternal life. To rely on those works was not the equivalent of faith for eternal life. It could not achieve what only Christ could achieve. Only after Christ achieved eternal life for us could our faith be placed in a system that could be said is "of faith."

Now, the questions:

1. What is the law for?
2. Is the law faith?

The Law is a temporary system of obedience, in which Israel could live in fellowship with God, obeying His word for their lives. But the basis of that fellowship could not last--it had to be fulfilled in an everlasting covenant.

Therefore, the Law also showed that its system was intended to be temporary, simply confirming what had been decided in the Garden of Eden, that Man was prohibited from having access to the Tree of Life. The Law, in other words, confirmed Man's death sentence, showing by its principles that Man could not enter into eternal fellowship with God under the provisions of that system.

So now, in this sense the Law was not "of faith." It was specifically not "of faith that establishes an eternal covenant. It depended on works that were imperfect, but which could nevertheless earn rewards, or blessings. It just could not obtain what only Christ could obtain--eternal life.

While you say “But yes, your view of "faith" is exactly what my definition is.”, you have faith to mean more which I don’t have in my take of faith. So, I think that is a problem.

We agree that faith is the same, OT and NT, in the sense that it is always placed in God, and obtains a measure of justification. But we do not agree that faith in the OT obtained, in the OT time period, eternal justification--only temporary justification, a righteousness that did not qualify for eternal life.

This is where we differ with regards law. For law is not the word of God just as faith is not the word of God. The word of God is different from law and faith. So that’s another problem we have.
Tong
R1730

Many, many times God said the Law He gave Moses was *His Word.* You are battling problems with semantics, my friend!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

This verse proves that Christians are under the law. They all need Christ still to carry its burden for them.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

This verse proves that Christians are under the law. They all need Christ still for forgiveness of their transgression of it.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

This verse proves that Christians are under the law still. They all need faith still.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

This verse proves that Christians are under the law still, "for where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."

TBC DV

 

[Jim B]

This verse proves that Christians are under the law still, "for where sin abounded, grace did much more abound."

TBC DV

a) Chopping up Scripture into single verses to prove doctrine is a serious error. You may or may not know that verses were added to the Bible centuries later as a reference tool.

b) In context, here is the relevant section from Paul's letter to the Romans...

"Consequently, just as condemnation for all people came through one transgression, so too through the one righteous act came righteousness leading to life for all people. For just as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, so also through the obedience of one man many will be constituted righteous. Now the law came in so that the transgression may increase, but where sin increased, grace multiplied all the more, so that just as sin reigned in death, so also grace will reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Further down in his letter he wrote, "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? That is as clear as it gets!!

This clearly disproves your statement that Christians are under the law. We are under grace, as the main subject of Paul's letter to the Romans and his other letters proves.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This verse proves that Christians are under the law. They all need Christ still to carry its burden for them.

This is no longer a present need. Christ carried our burden under the Law on the Cross. He does not have to keep carrying the Cross--it did it once for all time in history.

We are not under the Law. That is an antequated system, designed to be fulfilled at the Cross. Temporary forgiveness was meant to lead to final forgiveness. That happened at the Cross.

Christ still carries our burdens. He is the righteousness that enables us to live for him, and to put our sins under our feet. But the burden of Salvation Christ already won for us. The Law was designed to be fulfilled at the Cross, and not ongoing after that.

We now live by the righteousness of Christ, and not by the righteousness of the Law. Living by the righteousness of Christ we rest in what he already accomplished at the Cross.