Come to the River

[bbyrd009]

“...and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” ...is this evil or good?

ah, well, imo it's mostly a contrast for [14] And when ye see this , your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb; i wouldn't be ascribing feelings nor even actions to God based upon that, even if it seems like that is what Isaiah is saying. I don't mean he is lying, but that a perspective is being addressed, much like you might read Ecclesiastes or something?

Iow it is also fair to say that the Lord did not slay anyone in that scenario, and that that is strictly a valid reflection of a certain point of view imo

“So then death worketh in us, but life in you.”

a rebuke, i'm pretty sure, to the believers in "Achaia."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Iow it is also fair to say that the Lord did not slay anyone

Not a good night. Be back tomorrow maybe. But consider Matthew 10:34
[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Romans 7:8-11
[8] But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. [9] For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. [10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. [11] For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me .

Isaiah 66:16
[16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

 

[Enoch111]

But consider Matthew 10:34
[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

This was a metaphorical sword. Faith in Christ DIVIDES families and groups. And the Word of God (the Gospel) is depicted as a sword, which also generates faith in human hearts.

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

This is unrelated to the above. What this means is that when a sinner reads or hears the Ten Commandments he is immediately convicted of his sins, and also understands that the penalty for sin is the death penalty (the first and second deaths). So within his soul he knows he is a dead man walking unless he obeys the Gospel.

Isaiah 66:16
[16] For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

This is totally unrelated to both of the above verses, and points to the final judgments which will come upon the earth before and during the Second Coming of Christ. As regards Armageddon, a river of blood 200 miles long and about 5 feet deep will flow at that awful battle.

 

[bbyrd009]

This is totally unrelated to both of the above verses, and points to the final judgments which will come upon the earth before and during the Second Coming of Christ. As regards Armageddon, a river of blood 200 miles long and about 5 feet deep will flow at that awful battle.

wadr if you expect anyone to ever see this with their two eyes you are going to be disappointed,
and fwiw i would switch back to "600 stadia" and "horse's bridle" bc they have symbolic meaning

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Faith in Christ DIVIDES families and groups. And the Word of God (the Gospel) is depicted as a sword, which also generates faith in human hearts.

He brought a sword ...not Peace.
Yet to His body...He brought Peace in we (the Body of Christ) are Peacemakers who sow Peace and not sow division(flesh). If that you don’t agree with then read all the times Paul urged them to not be apart of divisions. To not be a part of a divisive person. 1 Corinthians 4:19-21
[19] But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power. [20] For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power. [21] What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

“shall I come into you with ‘a rod’ ...or in love, and in ‘the spirit’ of meekness’?”

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This was a metaphorical sword. Faith in Christ DIVIDES families and groups.

Yeah let’s talk about that.

Jeremiah 15:3
[3] And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord : the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy.—these (in Spirit) are, ‘metaphorical’ as you say.

The wrath of God sits upon a person. Romans For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. [5] Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

I can tell with certainty that God did ‘slay’ me and wasted my old life and old ways. I have no doubt He slays and as Paul said ‘we die’ so that we ‘may live’.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

‘...diving asunder of soul and spirit...’
1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

The Word(Christ) POWERFUL in Diving of ‘soul’ and ‘spirit’ ...diving of First Adam a living soul and The Last Adam a quickening spirit. —to divide Adam (the Old Man) from the Last Adam(the New Man). POWERFUL in diving so we can be as the Last Adam(the New man) and LESS like the Old Man(Adam).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

wadr if you expect anyone to ever see this with their two eyes you are going to be disappointed,
and fwiw i would switch back to "600 stadia" and "horse's bridle" bc they have symbolic meaning

Exactly.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Faith in Christ DIVIDES families and groups.

Faith doesn’t divide families and groups. The flesh (religion) that divides families and groups. Faith restores and gathers in One body...that is the Peace part of John 20:21-22
[21] Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. [22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them , and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Do we want to be a part of those He sent out to be His peace in a world that does not know or has never seen ‘Peace’? Or the division?

We use the He came to bring division as an excuse for not being able to love our families. It is divided right? NOT by faith. Faith is Peace. Widen the lens and see who He is speaking of here...a House of hypocrites. ‘Religion’ Luke 12:51-54 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: [52] For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. [53] The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. [54] And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.

Luke 12:55-56
[55] And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass. [56] Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

Mother against Mother:
Genesis 3:20
[20] And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Galatians 4:26
[26] But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Which ‘divides’?
Which Gathers.

 

[bbyrd009]

i like this, even if i understand why it was said that "faith divides" too. i used to believe it was beliefs that divide, but imo it is holding beliefs as AT that does moreso

 

[bbyrd009]

But Jerusalem which is above is free

ah, a peek at the real Jerusalem

 

[VictoryinJesus]

i like this, even if i understand why it was said that "faith divides" too. i used to believe it was beliefs that divide, but imo it is holding beliefs as AT that does moreso

I understand that part also. Honestly, even lately, I’ve sat down and cried looking at the mess of my home and family and seeing division. All I’m saying is it became clear maybe God wants the house(name we built) to fall...but I truly believe He then gathers the broken pieces of a shattered home(name)into His House. The division what we (I) made. The restoration and gathering of the broken what He has joined and fitted into the New.

 

[bbyrd009]

I understand that part also. Honestly, even lately, I’ve sat down and cried looking at the mess of my home and family and seeing division. All I’m saying is it became clear maybe God wants the house(name we built) to fall...but I truly believe He then gathers the broken pieces of a shattered home(name)into His House. The division what we (I) made. The restoration and gathering of the broken what He has joined and fitted into the New.

aw, i feel for you, fwiw imo that is a much better path than pretending there are no divisions, what most families do?
Imo now that your beliefs are surely known, just don't insist upon them and even yield to others' will, for the best effect
generally speaking. Ya, let the pieces come back together iow

 

[VictoryinJesus]

a rebuke, i'm pretty sure, to the believers in "Achaia."

A rebuke? I don’t understand 2 Corinthians 4:11-12 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life (Spirit)also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. [12] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Paul seemed to rush into being made weak in the flesh as seeking Life(Christ) for another. Hoping and believing always that his weakness would allow Christ to be seen more abundantly. When the flesh is made weak...the Spirit is strong and made manifest; the unseen manifest. 2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

“...light to shine out of darkness” light(Christ) to shine out of darkness, made manifest in the mortal body.

2 Corinthians 4:15
[15] For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

Philippians 2:4-5
[4] Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. [5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul seemed to rush into being made weak in the flesh as seeking Life(Christ) for another. Hoping and believing always that his weakness would allow Christ to be seen more abundantly.

"The name Achaia means Grief or Trouble." i don't know--as i haven't spent any time in the passage yet, but we could look--but i suspect that Paul is counselling some Prosperity Believers there. There is a first letter that does not contain Achaia (i don't think) and these were the letters to the Corinthians, right, the believers descended from the Temple of Artemis school iow, who tended to over-eating at love feasts and etc, right? i think anyway

[12] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

a backhanded compliment at best imo; "this works in us, but apparently that works in you guys" kinda thing, maybe. Guess i'll hafta go see now lol

 

[bbyrd009]

3But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4In their case, the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (translation; "they are not even going to read this next part right")
5For we are not proclaiming ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord,j and ourselves as your •slavesbecause of Jesus.
6For God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”k has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledgel of God’s glorym in the face of Jesus Christ.
note that "our" has just been clearly delineated in v 5, in "ourselves," iow "our" in v 6 is not also "your."
and just in case the point is not made,
7Now we have
8We are
9we are
10We always
11For we who live are always given over to death
ok, now read v 12,
12So death works in us, but life in you. (who is this "you" that has suddenly been acknowledged anyway? It is the "their" of v4!)
13And since we
don't forget who "we" is, an ambiguity is presented here, and you can change that "we" if you are so inclined now,
"We" can now be "us" if you want it to be, see, v12 even helped, notice how "we" has become "us" in v12, but now in v13 it's back to "we." But what is v13 even saying? Paul is not making a useless aside here to reiterate that "we" have the same spirit of faith in keeping with what is written; he is pointing out that "us" is at odds with "we" imo
13And since we have the same spirit of faith in keeping with what is written, I believed, therefore I spoke,q, r we also believe, and therefore speak.
(Since "we" are in agreement on this, we are speaking our minds here, or similar)
and just in case that is not accepted, the 'at odds' part,
14We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you.
the distinction is once again made, "present us with you," even though done so artfully as to be perceived as inclusive, right, and then immediately occluded,
15Indeed, everything is for your benefit, so that grace, extendedthrough more and more people, may cause thanksgivingt to increase to God’s glory.
which is certainly true enough from his pov, but we can note how the two vv, 14-15, do not even flow together, everything is not for "our" benefit iow, a subject change is introduced, "everything is for your benefit," said to the most wealthy believers in Christendom, after refusing many gifts and offerings from them too i guess.

"Everything is for your benefit" becomes a dialectic way to say "you guys are screwed" lol. imo of course

and it occurs to me that we could prolly even contrast this passage with the one where Paul is praising some Church for their selflessness and putting themselves at Paul's disposal when he needed it, dunno if the term "slaves" there is used or not, but i think so?

 

[bbyrd009]

"How Free Will Illuminates the Gospel"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

3But if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4In their case, the god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. (translation; "they are not even going to read this next part right")
5For we are not proclaiming ourselves but Jesus Christ as Lord,j and ourselves as your •slavesbecause of Jesus.
6For God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”k has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledgel of God’s glorym in the face of Jesus Christ.
note that "our" has just been clearly delineated in v 5, in "ourselves," iow "our" in v 6 is not also "your."
and just in case the point is not made,
7Now we have
8We are
9we are
10We always
11For we who live are always given over to death
ok, now read v 12,
12So death works in us, but life in you. (who is this "you" that has suddenly been acknowledged anyway? It is the "their" of v4!)
13And since we
don't forget who "we" is, an ambiguity is presented here, and you can change that "we" if you are so inclined now,
"We" can now be "us" if you want it to be, see, v12 even helped, notice how "we" has become "us" in v12, but now in v13 it's back to "we." But what is v13 even saying? Paul is not making a useless aside here to reiterate that "we" have the same spirit of faith in keeping with what is written; he is pointing out that "us" is at odds with "we" imo
13And since we have the same spirit of faith in keeping with what is written, I believed, therefore I spoke,q, r we also believe, and therefore speak.
(Since "we" are in agreement on this, we are speaking our minds here, or similar)
and just in case that is not accepted, the 'at odds' part,
14We know that the One who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and present us with you.
the distinction is once again made, "present us with you," and then immediately occluded,
15Indeed, everything is for your benefit, so that grace, extendedthrough more and more people, may cause thanksgivingt to increase to God’s glory.

and it occurs to me that we could prolly even contrast this passage with the one where Paul is praising some Church for their selflessness and putting themselves at Paul's disposal when he needed it, dunno if the term "slaves" there is used or not, but i think so?

I’m sorry you lost me there. Do you mean 2 Corinthians 4:12
[12] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Is similar to 1 Corinthians 4:8-11Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. [9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. [10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

 

[bbyrd009]

I’m sorry you lost me there. Do you mean 2 Corinthians 4:12
[12] So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Is similar to 1 Corinthians 4:8-11Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you. [9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men. [10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

well, you found support for the earlier, main assertion, yes, a "compare," the last thing i referenced is in a letter to another congregation, where he is praising them for putting themselves at his disposal, it'll come to me, a "contrast."

But on the original point, "the fate of the Church at Corinth" will even be pertinent, if the inclusion of "Achaea" in the 2nd Letter is not
where is Corinth today even, etc

 

[bbyrd009]

"Etymology of the name Hebrew

The name Hebrew comes from the verb אבר (abar), meaning to pass over or through:..."

thus,
"Hebrew meaning

To us moderns the name Hebrew has a unique and exclusive (and even religious) ring to it, but it should be noted with some stress that this is not at all the case in the narrative of the Bible. The "name" Hebrew isn't an abstract label but much rather an ordinary word used as an appellative, like a nickname or even a signature quality. It means Passed Over or Passer Over or Transition or One Who Transits or One From The Other [Dry] Side or even Flower Forth or Deducer or He Who Looks At Something From All Sides." The amazing name Hebrew: meaning and etymology

 

[icxn]

2I will be with youd
when you pass through the waters,e
and when you pass through the rivers,
they will not overwhelm you.

"River" is code for "division" in Scripture, but this may not be entirely clear nor acceptable to some--might not be entirely accurate for that matter--so we might have to debate that a bit, but i guess/hope that it is obv that Isaiah is not meaning that literal rivers will not overwhelm us when we "pass through" them; it's just a bit harder to get why God would be leading us to this same concept to get "washed" maybe.

When you pass through the waters, I will be with you; and through the rivers, they shall not overwhelm you; when you walk through fire you shall not be burned, and the flame shall not consume you. (Isaiah 43:2)

Imo, waters in this context – overwhelm being the keyword – represent the knowledge of sensory things that we have collected through our senses with rivers being the objects of sense perception. These have the potential to harm (overwhelm) us when not captivated in obedience to Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5). If you think about it, every temptation (fire) that the enemy ignites in us, is based on the misuse of some sensory object (ex. the temptations of Christ). If God is with us, as He was with Jacob, then neither the thoughts of the temptation as if fire will burn us (force us to consent to sin), nor the flame of desire will consume us (become a passion). A similar theme can also be seen in Psalm 124.

In contrast, the river of the water of life that flows from the throne of God, that is to say the knowledge of divine things and the gifts of grace that Christ bestows on us are pure and good for the cleansing of soul and body (Hebrews 10:22). This water nurtures the mustard seed of faith, it gives growth to the fig tree of righteousness and matures the grapes of the tree of holiness from which the intoxicating wine of theology is produced.