Common ground

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Wormwood

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Yes, there are a lot of theories. Parts of it sounds like Paul, and Luke was certainly around Paul a lot. I am sure some texual critics have done a lot of work in comparing word use and grammar between Luke/Acts and Hebrews. I havent read much on this so I dont know. I know some early church tradition even says Barnabus wrote it. Clearly it was written by someone who was a follower of a first-hand witness of Jesus...and the book is wonderful and powerful. I guess my only thought of it is that its ultimate author is the Holy Spirit, so that is sufficient for me :).
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
Yes, there are a lot of theories. Parts of it sounds like Paul, and Luke was certainly around Paul a lot. I am sure some texual critics have done a lot of work in comparing word use and grammar between Luke/Acts and Hebrews. I havent read much on this so I dont know. I know some early church tradition even says Barnabus wrote it. Clearly it was written by someone who was a follower of a first-hand witness of Jesus...and the book is wonderful and powerful. I guess my only thought of it is that its ultimate author is the Holy Spirit, so that is sufficient for me :).
:D. Nice copout.
You should get Allen's book, 'Lukan Authorship of Hebrews'. He did a lot of the work you mentioned.
 

OzSpen

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Wormwood said:
IMO, Hebrews 2:3 prohibits the book to have been written by someone who walked with Jesus personally or Paul (who spoke with Jesus in visions).

“how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard,” (Hebrews 2:3, ESV)
WW,

That kind of reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Paul or anyone else in the early church could have passed on what 'was attested to us by those who heard'. When did Paul live? Estimates are that he was born ca 4BC and died AD 62-64 (Encyclopaedia Britannica). There is no reason why Paul could not have passed on information from eyewitnesses in the Book of Hebrews. However, we do not have adequate information to know for sure who wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews.

F F Bruce in his commentary on Hebrews states: 'If we do not know for certain to whom the epistle was sent, neither do we know by whom it was sent.... Even today we have not got far beyond Origen's confession of ignorance' (Bruce 1964:xxxv, xliii). As for Paul as author, Bruce wrote: ' It is because we have other indubitable writings from his pen that we can say confidently with Calvin: "The manner of teaching and the style sufficiently show that Paul was not the author, and the writer himself confesses in the second chapter that he was one of the disciples of the apostles, which is wholly different from the way in which Paul spoke of himself"' (Bruce 1964:xli). Here, Bruce quoted from Calvin's Commentaries: The Epistle ... to the Hebrews and the First and Second Epistles of Peter (Edinburgh 1963:1).

Lenski wrote, 'Paul did not write Hebrews. The early Alexandrians thought that Paul was the author of the epistle.... An older opinion maintained that Luke translated a Hebrew original from the pen of Paul into Greek.... The mention of Timothy in 13;23 has caused some to think of Paul. But this has too little weight to offset all that speaks so decisively against Pauline authorship.... The difference in style is decisive against Pauline authorship.... In the ancient church Barnabas was regarded as a possible author of this epistle' (Lenski 1966:8-13).

So I am left with the profound conclusion: I do not know who was the author but this we know that it was included in the canon of sacred Scripture.

Works consulted
Bruce, F F 1964. The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The Epistle to the Hebrews. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.

Lenski, R C H 1966. Commentary on the New Testament: The Interpretation of the Epistle to the Hebrews and of the Epistle of James. Peabody, Mass: Hendrickson Publishers (limited edition assigned by Augsburg Publishing House, edition of 1966).
 

StanJ

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OzSpen said:
That kind of reasoning doesn't make sense to me. Paul or anyone else in the early church could have passed on what 'was attested to us by those who heard'. When did Paul live? Estimates are that he was born ca 4BC and died AD 62-64 There is no reason why Paul could not have passed on information from eyewitnesses in the Book of Hebrews. However, we do not have adequate information to know for sure who wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews.
As WW clearly pointed out, Paul was directly instructed by Jesus so in essence he was an eyewitness. It had to be somebody that was not an eyewitness to Jesus' his testimony or his ministry. Also Paul clearly thought of himself and wrote, that he was the Apostle to the Gentiles, I doubt very much he would want to write a book directed at Hebrews when the rest of his written work is directed at Gentiles?
 

Wormwood

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Oz,

I think we are saying the exact same thing. I am in complete agreement with the authors you quoted. It was not Paul. Paul always speaks of himself as an Apostle and one who was entrusted the Gospel that he received directly from the Lord himself. The author of Hebrews tells us that they received the message from someone who heard it directly. So, that pretty much rules out all the Apostles.

I think it is very possible that Luke wrote it, although I would find it strange that a Gentile would write such a letter. The letter seems to be written by a Jew for Jews. Luke, in his other writings, seems very focused on connecting with Gentiles and showing how Gentiles have been accepted into the Kingdom that it would certainly be strange that he would focus a letter specifically to the Jews and write as if he is one of them. Of course, I would not rule it out as I am a very firm believer in the fact that there are no distinctions in Christ anymore and God shows no favoritism. I could certainly see Luke referring to himself as a Jew since he, and all believing Gentiles, have been grafted in and have become true Israel.

StanJ,

Of course its a copout! :) Haha.
 

Angelina

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Some good thoughts here guys. I still think that Peter may have a chance but most scholars believe Hebrews was written by Paul however, some of his signature "beginning messages" of salutation is missing. It could also be James as well. Bless ya!
 

StanJ

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Angelina said:
Some good thoughts here guys. I still think that Peter may have a chance but most scholars believe Hebrews was written by Paul however, some of his signature "beginning messages" of salutation is missing. It could also be James as well. Bless ya!
2 Thess 3:17 also shows it can't be Paul.
 
B

brakelite

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Wormwood said:
Oz,

I think we are saying the exact same thing. I am in complete agreement with the authors you quoted. It was not Paul. Paul always speaks of himself as an Apostle and one who was entrusted the Gospel that he received directly from the Lord himself. The author of Hebrews tells us that they received the message from someone who heard it directly. So, that pretty much rules out all the Apostles.

I think it is very possible that Luke wrote it, although I would find it strange that a Gentile would write such a letter. The letter seems to be written by a Jew for Jews. Luke, in his other writings, seems very focused on connecting with Gentiles and showing how Gentiles have been accepted into the Kingdom that it would certainly be strange that he would focus a letter specifically to the Jews and write as if he is one of them. Of course, I would not rule it out as I am a very firm believer in the fact that there are no distinctions in Christ anymore and God shows no favoritism. I could certainly see Luke referring to himself as a Jew since he, and all believing Gentiles, have been grafted in and have become true Israel.

StanJ,

Of course its a copout! :) Haha.
I am undecided as to whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not, although I find yours and others posts in that regard compelling...however, I certainly agree with you regards Luke. The letter itself appears to be written by someone very well acquainted with the Jewish mindset/history/law/Torah and that ironically would be more in favor of someone like Paul rather than Luke.
As to the 'signature' of Paul's letters. I have for a long time held the opinion that the reason he only signed the greeting or farewell himself and used others to write the body of the letter is because to my mind he was still suffering very much from the blindness he was struck by in the beginning...this being the 'thorn in the flesh' he prayed to be delivered from, but wasn't. There is anecdotal evidence of this here and there in his letters.
 

OzSpen

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Wormwood said:
Oz,

I think we are saying the exact same thing. I am in complete agreement with the authors you quoted. It was not Paul. Paul always speaks of himself as an Apostle and one who was entrusted the Gospel that he received directly from the Lord himself. The author of Hebrews tells us that they received the message from someone who heard it directly. So, that pretty much rules out all the Apostles.

I think it is very possible that Luke wrote it, although I would find it strange that a Gentile would write such a letter. The letter seems to be written by a Jew for Jews. Luke, in his other writings, seems very focused on connecting with Gentiles and showing how Gentiles have been accepted into the Kingdom that it would certainly be strange that he would focus a letter specifically to the Jews and write as if he is one of them. Of course, I would not rule it out as I am a very firm believer in the fact that there are no distinctions in Christ anymore and God shows no favoritism. I could certainly see Luke referring to himself as a Jew since he, and all believing Gentiles, have been grafted in and have become true Israel.

StanJ,

Of course its a copout! :) Haha.
WW,

I conclude that we are not told the author and I don't know who he was. It is acceptable to me that the early church saw it appropriate to include the Book of Hebrews in the canon of Scripture.

Oz
 

StanJ

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brakelite said:
I am undecided as to whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not, although I find yours and others posts in that regard compelling...however, I certainly agree with you regards Luke. The letter itself appears to be written by someone very well acquainted with the Jewish mindset/history/law/Torah and that ironically would be more in favor of someone like Paul rather than Luke.
As to the 'signature' of Paul's letters. I have for a long time held the opinion that the reason he only signed the greeting or farewell himself and used others to write the body of the letter is because to my mind he was still suffering very much from the blindness he was struck by in the beginning...this being the 'thorn in the flesh' he prayed to be delivered from, but wasn't. There is anecdotal evidence of this here and there in his letters.
It couldn't have been Paul's simply because Paul was a witness and the author of Hebrews was not.
Yes Paul had chronic ophthalmia, and indeed it was his 'Thorn In the Flesh', which he addressed in Galatians 4:15.
In my opinion, as Paul states himself, it was given to him to keep him dependent on God and focused on the task at hand. I think it reminded Paul every day that he had been persecuting Jesus in the beginning and that Jesus tracking him down and making him blind was the only way that he could make him stop and see the light so to speak. As he's the only apostle that was treated in this way when he was called, I think God did It for more than a reason to get his attention, he did it to maintain his attention throughout his lifetime. I can tell you that my diabetic condition leaves me much more dependent on God's mercy then I normally would have been, had I grown up healthy.
 

Samael

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the only common ground we could ever meet is that there is a god and that we have no bloody idea what he wants or does not want other then what we can guess and that we are here for a reason but its undecided.
 

StanJ

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Samael said:
the only common ground we could ever meet is that there is a god and that we have no bloody idea what he wants or does not want other then what we can guess and that we are here for a reason but its undecided.
That may be the lowest common denominator that you can arrive at but as you can see from this thread we have much more in common than you believe or recognize.
 

OzSpen

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Samael said:
the only common ground we could ever meet is that there is a god and that we have no bloody idea what he wants or does not want other then what we can guess and that we are here for a reason but its undecided.
Samael,

From where did you obtain that information that makes you so certain of your position?

Oz
 

Wormwood

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brakelite said:
I am undecided as to whether Paul wrote Hebrews or not, although I find yours and others posts in that regard compelling...however, I certainly agree with you regards Luke. The letter itself appears to be written by someone very well acquainted with the Jewish mindset/history/law/Torah and that ironically would be more in favor of someone like Paul rather than Luke.
As to the 'signature' of Paul's letters. I have for a long time held the opinion that the reason he only signed the greeting or farewell himself and used others to write the body of the letter is because to my mind he was still suffering very much from the blindness he was struck by in the beginning...this being the 'thorn in the flesh' he prayed to be delivered from, but wasn't. There is anecdotal evidence of this here and there in his letters.
If I were to commit to a position on the issue, I would probably contend that Barnabas wrote the epistle. He was a Jew. He spent time with Paul so that would explain the Pauline flavor to the Epistle and he was one who walked with the eyewitnesses. Also, I think many in church history attributed the book to him. So, seems like a good fit for me. Although, ultimately, as we have all said, the authorship is not that important. We agree on its inspiration so that is what matters.
 

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Interesting...do you think Hebrews could have also been written by Timothy, Paul's right hand man or do you think that Timothy could not have written it although his mother was Jewish but his father was Greek? :huh:
 

Wormwood

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To my knowledge, no early church fathers attribute the book to Timothy. It seems most early witnesses claim either Paul, Barnabus, Luke, Apollos or Clement of Alexandria wrote the book. As I pointed out, I think the internal evidence excludes Paul and the Jewish focus likely excludes Luke. Barnabus and Clement seem to be the most prominent people referenced by early writers outside of Paul and Luke. Either Barnabus or Clement are likely authors. If you read the book of 1 Clement, it also sounds much like Paul's style of writing so Clement is also a very likely author.
 

OzSpen

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Wormwood said:
To my knowledge, no early church fathers attribute the book to Timothy. It seems most early witnesses claim either Paul, Barnabus, Luke, Apollos or Clement of Alexandria wrote the book. As I pointed out, I think the internal evidence excludes Paul and the Jewish focus likely excludes Luke. Barnabus and Clement seem to be the most prominent people referenced by early writers outside of Paul and Luke. Either Barnabus or Clement are likely authors. If you read the book of 1 Clement, it also sounds much like Paul's style of writing so Clement is also a very likely author.
Wormwood,

To accept Clement, supposed author of First Clement (ca 80-140 AD) as the author, would place the dating of Hebrews in the late first century (Clement was martyred in ca. 100 AD). No author's name is officially attached to First Clement. F F Bruce in his commentary on the Book of Hebrews has a sound discussion of the authorship options (Bruce 1964:xxxv-xlii). Of the authorship of Hebrews, he wrote,

If we do not know for certain to whom the epistle was sent, neither do we know by whom it was sent. If Clement of Rome had any inkling of the author's identity, he gives us no indication of it. But we can be quite sure that he himself was not the author, although it has been suggested at various times that he was. In spite of Clement's familiarity with the epistle, he "turns his back on its central argument in order to buttress his own arguments about the Church's Ministry by an appeal to the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament (Bruce 1964:xxxv-xxxvi).
Bruce cites T W Manson's statement that describes Clement's procedure in regard to the Church's Ministry as 'a retrogression of the worst kind' (in Bruce 1964:xxxvi, n 57).

Tertullian (ca. 155/160-220) appealed to the Epistle to the Hebrews as having greater authority than the Shepherd of Hermas because of the eminence of the author of Hebrews. He wrote, 'For there is extant withal an Epistle to the Hebrews under the name of Barnabas— a man sufficiently accredited by God, as being one whom Paul has stationed next to himself in the uninterrupted observance of abstinence' (On Modesty ch 20).

Origen (ca. 185-254) stated,
If I gave my opinion, I should say that the thoughts are those of the apostle, but the diction and phraseology are those of some one who remembered the apostolic teachings, and wrote down at his leisure what had been said by his teacher. Therefore if any church holds that this epistle is by Paul, let it be commended for this. For not without reason have the ancients handed it down as Paul's.

But who wrote the epistle, in truth, God knows. The statement of some who have gone before us is that Clement, bishop of the Romans, wrote the epistle, and of others that Luke, the author of the Gospel and the Acts, wrote it. But let this suffice on these matters (cited in Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6.25.13-14).
Bruce further notes that from the Festal Letter of AD 367,

from then on the Pauline ascription became traditional in the west as in the east, although commentators of critical judgment continued to speak of Clement of Rome or Luke as translator or editor of the epistle. Thus Thomas Aquinas says that "Luke, who was an excellent advocate, translated it from Hebrew into that elegant Greek.... Calvin thought of Luke or Clement of Rome as the author, not merely translator or editor; while Luther was apparently the first to make the brilliant guess that the author was Apollos - a guess which has commended itself to many since his day (Bruce 1964:xxxix).
In 2000 years of church history, we have not been able to nail down a specific author of the Book of Hebrews.
Sincerely,
Oz

Works consulted
Bruce, F F 1964. The Epistle to the Hebrews (The New International Commentary on the New Testament). Grand Rapids, Michigan: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co.
 

Wormwood

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Thanks for the info Oz. Good stuff. Yes, that is why I would push for Barnabas. There are a few early church people that point to Clement and to me the writing sounds somewhat similar to 1 Clement (whose authorship is another thread altogether!), but for the above noted reasons, Barnabas would be my first choice if I were forced to make an argument for the books authorship. :)
 

StanJ

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Wormwood said:
Thanks for the info Oz. Good stuff. Yes, that is why I would push for Barnabas. There are a few early church people that point to Clement and to me the writing sounds somewhat similar to 1 Clement (whose authorship is another thread altogether!), but for the above noted reasons, Barnabas would be my first choice if I were forced to make an argument for the books authorship. :)
Given Allen's credentials and the reviews of his book, one of which is in the following link, I'll stick with Luke.

http://polumeros.blogspot.ca/2011/01/review-of-david-allens-lukan-authorship.html
 

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Wow that was a great discussion in relation to the book of Hebrews. Is there other things we can discuss regarding things we find common in our belief systems? :huh: